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Author Topic: ?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock  (Read 3614 times)

Offline thenewodd

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To any who,

In all of the dark energy theories, and given the Occam propensity simplicity nature of physics, the possibility of our solar system encountering a rogue black hole is not well documented in theory. I do have one reference. In Leonard Susskind's book "The Black Hole War" on pages 436 and 437.

As is well documented, relativity implies a clock slowing (and no Lorenz shorting of length) when matter is near large mass. A slower clock relative to the past on Earth would cause a false result of light spectrum shift for objects not in our solar system.

Does anyone have reference sources that discount the theory that Dark Energy is caused soley and simply by our solar system approaching a Black Hole? Does anyone have reference sources that justify the theory? If not, are there any comments from the forum?

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Offline Soul Surfer

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #1 on: 12/07/2011 18:17:04 »
If the solar system was in a strong gravitational field from something like a black hole this would easily be detected by the distortions in the planetary orbits unless the object was a very massive and a very long way away in which case it would be detected in the disturbance to the motions of nearby stars.  The only such object is the black hole at the centre of our galaxy which we are orbiting.
 

Offline thenewodd

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #2 on: 12/07/2011 20:12:07 »
thx for the reply

Actually, far away doesn't matter as much as the diameter of the event horizon of the black hole. If the diameter is large enough there are none to little tidal forces, approaching the horizon wouldn't be felt or measurable locally.

Given a rogue black hole is not so massive, I agree that a black hole gravity's would at some point cause aberrations in planetary orbits. One abberation I have been trying to gather data on is that of Voyager I and II.

thenewodd
« Last Edit: 12/07/2011 20:13:54 by thenewodd »
 

Offline yor_on

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #3 on: 12/07/2011 20:20:56 »
"As is well documented, relativity implies a clock slowing (and no Lorenz shorting of length) when matter is near large mass."

What exactly do you mean there?

Relativity do not speak of 'clocks slowing'. The only time (pun intended) you can speak of a 'clock slowing' is when comparing 'frames of reference' conceptually. Would you to 'teleport' to that location you would find your clock to be as it always have been, giving you no 'slower time' relative your heartbeats.

"A slower clock relative to the past on Earth would cause a false result of light spectrum shift for objects not in our solar system."

Huh?
 

Offline thenewodd

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #4 on: 12/07/2011 21:56:04 »
[glow=red,2,300]  Yes in Special Relativity with differing constant velocity time is valid for just the frame an observer is located. But with the equivalence principle behind General Relativity, also time intervals are effected by nearness to mass.

Reference: newbielink:http://www.physics.carleton.ca/~watson/Physics/Astrophysics/Relativity/4901_GR_metric2.html [nonactive] .....(the beginning stuff)
newbielink:http://astro.physics.uiowa.edu/~kaaret/s09/L17_blackholes.pdf [nonactive] ............ pages 33 - 36][/glow]
 

Offline yor_on

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #5 on: 12/07/2011 22:15:45 »
Sorry, you really need to define it yourself. Explain to me how a 'clock' is expected to slow down for you? I say it won't, ever. As for a Lorentz contraction? Do you mean that it doesn't exist?
 

Offline thenewodd

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #6 on: 12/07/2011 22:26:32 »
yor on

I very much am convinced that the nature of existence at a macro level is best described by the laws and theories of Special Relativity and General Relativity. So of course I believe the metric of length is effected by local space velocity differences between two observers.

As for time dialation near massive objects, please search the net with terms like "equivalence principle" time dialation mass black holes ....
 

Offline yor_on

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #7 on: 12/07/2011 23:18:05 »
Equivalence principle is GR, as for your answers to me, they are as unspecific as any I've seen here. What I mean is that before you telling people that you understand something, good enough to start building something more of it, you really need to be able to define what the he* you mean. But instead of doing so, you give links to others, never having stated anything like what you assume.

A time dilation is relation between frames of reference according to how I understand it. You will nowhere find your clock changing duration, but you will still be able to find yourself 'younger' than your twin brother, when joining up with him after your traveling (twin experiment). A Lorentz contraction is as real as any 'time dilation', and also a result of 'frames of reference' as far as I can see. But nowhere will your own 'clock' change pace, same as that lights speed nowhere will be any different than 'c'. Any other reading you get will either be conceptual from comparing 'frames of reference' or a result of interactions.

So, if you feel you know this subject, and don't agree with me, describe it so we can see what you mean.
 

Offline yor_on

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #8 on: 12/07/2011 23:37:44 »
The best advice I can give you is to try to understand 'frames of reference' and see where that concept take you. Your 'time' is always of the same duration, no matter what you do, or go. If you're slated to die at 83, then that's your measure. Einstein discussed relativity and 'frames of reference' from a constant. Lights speed in a vacuum, which he defined as a constant. That means that there is no way you ever will measure it as anything other than 'c' by yourself. It's important to understand what that means, and also how to see 'frames of reference'. What it states is that there are two complementary ways of viewing 'reality'. Frames of reference is about conceptually comparing different 'slices' of time/mass/motion/energy to your own and then by Lorentz transforming them find a relation. That one comes from 'c', and only 'c'. Locally there is no such thing as 'slowing clocks', neither will you find your own 'frame of reference' Lorentz contracted. The rest becomes comparisons and translations with other 'frames'.

Conceptually you might assume as when comparing frames you then have the possibility of 'time' being an illusion, but the illusion is your comparing. And that one is so easy to check. Just live until you die.
 

Offline thenewodd

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #9 on: 14/07/2011 03:59:49 »
yor on

There are two layman's books regarding Black Holes, and it is Black Holes that the posting regards.
They are by two adversaries in astrophysics, I happen to more agree with Leonard Susskind and his book "The Black Hole War." His adversary is Steven Hawkins, and his book is "A Brief History of Time."

Your focus seems to be on frames of reference, but there is a legitimate term called proper time. Let me quote. From Susskind, page 72-73: A large black hole would be another very handy time machine. ... orbiting space station and a long cable to lower yourself down to the vicinity of the horizon. ... The cable must be very strong. A whinch would lower you down and, after a specified time, reel you back up.
He means by a large black hole, that at least the horizon is large enough so where you are suspended there are no lateral forces. He goes on to say the person would have to withstand gravitional downward "force" (as the cable hold the craft you are in) of millions to billions pounds.

To quote Hawkins, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-- my wife wants on the Pc, I'll post later

thenewodd
 

Offline thenewodd

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #10 on: 14/07/2011 06:22:11 »
y o

Let me refer back to the Susskind book to close the loop regarding the term proper time. I quote:... What is it about black holes the makes them time machines?.... This distortion affects the flow of proper time along world lines in different ways depending on where the world lines are located. Far from a black hole its influence would be very weak, and the flow of proper time is almost unaffected.....


Now quoting Stephen Hawkins' "A Brief History of Time." Again Hawkins is a rival of Susskind.... Another prediction of general relativity is that time should appear to run slower near a massive body............This prediction was tested in 1962, using a pair of very accurate clocks mounted at the top and bottome of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, which was nearer to Earth, was found to run slower, in exact agreement with general relativity.


Q.E. - can you or any other site member add knowledge to the gist of my posted question? thx because I have a ton of reseach on the theories of dark energy, but ruling out scientifically mathematically that dark energy is not the solar system approaching a black hole is something of a black hole. ie, I cannot find any.

thenewodd
 

Offline PhysBang

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #11 on: 14/07/2011 15:36:55 »
There is nothing here that has anything to do with dark energy or the evidence for it. What the heck is supposed to be going on?
 

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?Is Dark Energy just a slowing our Solar System clock
« Reply #11 on: 14/07/2011 15:36:55 »

 

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