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Author Topic: Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?  (Read 10766 times)

Offline thedoc

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« on: 20/09/2011 13:57:22 »
Can you mix water with something to stop it expanding when it freezes?
Asked by Android Neox, 2nd Life


                                        Visit the webpage for the podcast in which this question is answered.

 

« Last Edit: 20/09/2011 13:57:22 by _system »


 

Offline thedoc

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #1 on: 20/09/2011 13:57:22 »
We answered this question on the show...



Water and glycerol have really fantastic properties.  You can freeze water, as we know, at around 0°C whereas glycerol, pure glycerol, freezes at a much higher temperature.  If you mix the two components together, you can actually reduce the freezing temperature to below 0.  I believe at a concentration of 0.3 mole fraction, so 30% glycerol, 70% water, you can get the freezing temperature of that solution, all the way down to -45°C.  now what's that doing to the actual hydrogen bonded network of water, that's exactly what we’re trying to find out, using this neutron diffraction technique.
« Last Edit: 20/09/2011 13:57:22 by _system »
 

Offline damocles

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #2 on: 20/09/2011 20:16:23 »
With all due respect, I think that this answer does not really address the question. Stopping water from freezing until you reach a really low temperature is not quite the same thing as stopping it from expanding when it does freeze (at that really low temperature).

When your 'really fantastic' 70:30 water:glycerol mixture does freeze at -45°C, what are the densities of the liquid and ice phases? Does the mixture shrink or expand upon freezing?
 

Offline Geezer

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #3 on: 21/09/2011 07:08:33 »
I suspect that if you can prevent water from expanding as its temperature drops below 0°C, it won't actually freeze.
 

Offline CZARCAR

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #4 on: 21/09/2011 15:46:52 »
if ice is expansive due to the ionic nature of the H2O molecules repelling each other as they slow with cooling,wouldnt a magnetic suspension additive, opposite of the H2O charge, negate the repelling effect & result in minimized expansion of ice?
 

Offline The Penguin

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #5 on: 18/10/2011 20:22:44 »
The answer is no. You cannot.
 

Online Bored chemist

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #6 on: 19/10/2011 06:53:35 »
Yes, you can, you have to apply a lot of pressure.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #7 on: 19/10/2011 09:52:42 »
Yes, you can, you have to apply a lot of pressure.

There are supposed to be 9 different types of ice depending on conditions.

http://www.windows2universe.org/jupiter/moons/nine_kinds_of_ice.html


http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/teaching/projects/2002_03/jb8355/review.html


Anyway, I'm having troubles orienting myself on the phase diagrams. 

I doubt that the typical Ice-1 is forming without expansion, but at extreme pressures, different ice crystal structures are forming.
 

Offline The Penguin

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #8 on: 21/10/2011 03:28:47 »
Yes, you can, you have to apply a lot of pressure.

Is it only theoretically possible, or can we actually provide that type of pressure and containment?

Thanks!
 

Offline CliffordK

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #9 on: 21/10/2011 05:11:26 »
Here is a lot of good information about different types of ice.

http://www.btinternet.com/~martin.chaplin/phase.html

The following types of ice have densities greater than water, and thus would sink in plain water (unlike our typical low density ice that floats in water).

Ice Two (II) has a density of 1.16 g/cc, greater than that of water.
Ice Three (III) also has a density of 1.16 g/cc
Ice Nine (IX) is also slightly denser than Ice III.
Ice Five (V) has a density of 1.24 g/cc
Ice Six (VI) has a density of 1.31 g/cc
Ice Seven (VII) has a density of about 1.65 g/cc, greater than that of water.
Ice Eight (VIII) has a density of about 1.66 g/cc, also greater than that of water.

Many of the different forms of ice (including most of the high density ices) are formed at high pressures, sometimes at temperatures greater than 0°C. 

Since the physical properties are listed, I would have to believe they have actually been created. 
 

Online Bored chemist

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #10 on: 21/10/2011 07:06:00 »
Yes, you can, you have to apply a lot of pressure.

Is it only theoretically possible, or can we actually provide that type of pressure and containment?

Thanks!

How do you think they drew that diagram? Of course we can do it.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #11 on: 22/10/2011 00:29:29 »
What about surrounding the water with 10 inches of solid steel and then freezing it?  I'd like to see it try to expand then..
 

Offline Geezer

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #12 on: 22/10/2011 00:57:45 »
What about surrounding the water with 10 inches of solid steel and then freezing it?  I'd like to see it try to expand then..

I don't know about 10 inches of steel (and I'm too lazy to figure it out!) but water turning into ice will crack cast iron, quite easily. That's why we put antifreeze in cars :D

I'm guessing the ice will deform the steel quite a bit.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #13 on: 22/10/2011 10:21:57 »
What about surrounding the water with 10 inches of solid steel and then freezing it?  I'd like to see it try to expand then..

I don't know about 10 inches of steel (and I'm too lazy to figure it out!) but water turning into ice will crack cast iron, quite easily. That's why we put antifreeze in cars :D

I'm guessing the ice will deform the steel quite a bit.

Cast Iron is brittle.  Steel is much less brittle, although getting it very cold might make it somewhat brittle.  However, the steel would naturally tend to contract when chilled, making your container even smaller.

It would take a lot of force to deform 10" of steel.  I guess it depends on the actual volume of the vessel though.

Anyway, if you managed to freeze ice in a fixed vessel, you would get a mixture of normal ice, and one of the higher density types of ice.
 

Offline Geezer

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #14 on: 22/10/2011 17:56:34 »

It would take a lot of force to deform 10" of steel. 


Not as much as you might think. If you whack a piece of steel with a ball pein hammer, you can usually put a decent dent in it, no matter how thick it is. It's really more to do with the hardness of the steel, and if we make it too hard it becomes brittle, and ....
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #15 on: 22/10/2011 21:21:41 »
Just a point of interest, does anyone know where you can find ice type 7 on earth?  When I say ice type 7, I am referring to the diagram of the 9 ice types above..
 

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #16 on: 23/10/2011 14:22:35 »
Is there anywhere on earth (outside of research labs) where we know that it's 17000 atmospheres pressure? I don't think the bottom of the oceans is under that pressure, but the earth's core must be. On the other hand, it's hot down there.

Incidentally, one of the ways that research labs generate high pressures is to get a strong steel container with a thin pipe connected to it, fill it with water and freeze it in dry ice. The water forced out through the pipe can be under very high pressure.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #17 on: 23/10/2011 21:07:11 »
Incidentally, one of the ways that research labs generate high pressures is to get a strong steel container with a thin pipe connected to it, fill it with water and freeze it in dry ice. The water forced out through the pipe can be under very high pressure.

That's really cool, no pun intended, how does that work then?  Why would the water be forced out because of the dry ice?
 

Online Bored chemist

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #18 on: 23/10/2011 22:23:24 »
You put the container in dry ice. It gets cold. The water freezes. That ice takes up more space than the water so some gets forced out through the pipe,. If you feed that into a sealed container then the pressure in that vessel rises.
 

Offline Geezer

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #19 on: 24/10/2011 01:24:05 »
You put the container in dry ice. It gets cold. The water freezes. That ice takes up more space than the water so some gets forced out through the pipe,. If you feed that into a sealed container then the pressure in that vessel rises.

A very clever idea! I suppose it would work with anything that expands as it freezes, except that there may not be too many of them. Are there any?
 

Online Bored chemist

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Can you stop water expanding as it freezes?
« Reply #20 on: 24/10/2011 06:57:16 »
There are a few. Gallium for example.
 

Mr.Hobby

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« Reply #21 on: 30/11/2016 10:51:15 »
funny..........I understand as to why this question has been proposed, simply water expansion during freezing is the reason, heck main reason why cryo-storage is not a viable idea yet. but instead of focusing on the water saturation of the human body and the effects from freezing, I offer this idea. instead of trying to figure out how to freeze muscle tissue or for that matter an organ or human body, in order to achieve a viable stasis. I propose rather we should focus on reaching a set of conditional parameters in which drastically reduce cellular and chemical activity within said subject, so instead of trying to halt the cellular and chemical activity in its tracks, rather focus on reducing the activity rate to say for arguments sake 1% you would not technically be freezing afore mentioned tissue or what have you but rather slow its normal cellular activity to 1% of normal you would have an effective form of suspended animation for lack of a better term at this time. Now to embellish a little on the idea, take this 70:30 ratio using glycerol, if one could achieve such a mixture within the human body then administer a drug that drastically reduces cellular activity like tetrodotoxin then lower trhe bodys temperature to say just the new freezing temp id go with -40 degrees Celsius one could theorize that in this state a form of suspended animation would be achieved, the subject would not be by definition frozen but a state with significantly reduced cellular activity would be achieved. if such a situation were created I fully believe that said subject would not be able to be kept indefinitely, but the aging process would be drastically drawn out which is the ultimate objective of cryogenics, in my humble opinion anyway. but for those of you with the imagination and desire to reach for the stars just imagine what could be achieved with a break through of this nature. I firmly believe that we have trying to figure out an answer to a question that cannot be answered with current level of technological development we have. but rather a nearly identical answer is achievable. It goes back to that old saying when you look to closely you tend to see less.  
 

Mr.Hobby

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« Reply #22 on: 30/11/2016 10:51:15 »
funny..........I understand as to why this question has been proposed, simply water expansion during freezing is the reason, heck main reason why cryo-storage is not a viable idea yet. but instead of focusing on the water saturation of the human body and the effects from freezing, I offer this idea. instead of trying to figure out how to freeze muscle tissue or for that matter an organ or human body, in order to achieve a viable stasis. I propose rather we should focus on reaching a set of conditional parameters in which drastically reduce cellular and chemical activity within said subject, so instead of trying to halt the cellular and chemical activity in its tracks, rather focus on reducing the activity rate to say for arguments sake 1% you would not technically be freezing afore mentioned tissue or what have you but rather slow its normal cellular activity to 1% of normal you would have an effective form of suspended animation for lack of a better term at this time. Now to embellish a little on the idea, take this 70:30 ratio using glycerol, if one could achieve such a mixture within the human body then administer a drug that drastically reduces cellular activity like tetrodotoxin then lower trhe bodys temperature to say just the new freezing temp id go with -40 degrees Celsius one could theorize that in this state a form of suspended animation would be achieved, the subject would not be by definition frozen but a state with significantly reduced cellular activity would be achieved. if such a situation were created I fully believe that said subject would not be able to be kept indefinitely, but the aging process would be drastically drawn out which is the ultimate objective of cryogenics, in my humble opinion anyway. but for those of you with the imagination and desire to reach for the stars just imagine what could be achieved with a break through of this nature. I firmly believe that we have trying to figure out an answer to a question that cannot be answered with current level of technological development we have. but rather a nearly identical answer is achievable. It goes back to that old saying when you look to closely you tend to see less.  
 

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