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Hi, just wanted to ask, are you forum users theistic, meaning you believe there is a god of some sort? Or agnostic, meaning you or perhaps your dad once believed, but you think you now are unsure? Or are you atheistic, meaning you never believed in a god?

Theistic
5 (23.8%)
Agonstic
2 (9.5%)
Atheistic
14 (66.7%)
Prognostic
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Theist, Agnostic or Atheist?  (Read 16287 times)

Offline Titanscape

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« on: 17/10/2011 05:43:47 »
Hi, just wanted to ask, are you forum users theistic, meaning you believe there is a god of some sort? Or agnostic, meaning you or perhaps your dad once believed, but you think you now are officially unsure? Or are you atheistic, meaning you never believed in a god, and perhaps never looked into it?

I think I will add prognostic for knows better. Are you here?

Agnostic. Gnosis is ancient Greek for "know". I suppose agnostic means doesn't know anymore, or thinks knows better. Prognostic for knows better.


 

Offline Supercryptid

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« Reply #1 on: 17/10/2011 08:59:22 »
For prognostic, what do they "know better"? Know better than to have any kind of belief about (a) god(s)?
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #2 on: 17/10/2011 09:34:40 »
It's really quite straightforward.

Science does not allow itself to prove there are no gods, but science could prove gods exists if a god with some scientific evidence would simply show up to present the evidence. Is that really too much to ask?
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #3 on: 17/10/2011 10:14:49 »
Prognostic Supercryptid, would mean as you wrote, they think they are more enlightened than to believe in a god. They think the real questions that they think led to belief in a god or gods, are better answered now, and that the morality now comes better from their own consciences with a view of history and other formal studies.
 

Offline Supercryptid

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« Reply #4 on: 17/10/2011 20:26:47 »
Sounds like prognostic would fit under the umbrella of atheism then.
 

Offline grizelda

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« Reply #5 on: 18/10/2011 03:39:03 »
When the fetal brain first switches on, it's first experiences become the pattern for its future behavior. Since it has no previous identity, it identifies with this experience, the experience of the womb. But the fetus is not the womb, so its identity is only a belief. Without this belief and the identity it constructs, the person could not function, since your behavior is an extension of who you are. For political or religious purposes, your identity is demanded to be with the state or church. So every functioning human believes, but this belief is hijacked for the power and profit of the pirates.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #6 on: 18/10/2011 04:39:03 »
What would you call someone who doesn't believe a word of it (the supernatural bits anyway) but still enjoys singing in the church choir at Christmas?
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #7 on: 18/10/2011 05:08:08 »
I know some of the congregation believe Jesus wisdom, but not that he was God. I'd say they were agnostics. Although agnostics do not claim to know the origins of the universe, according to Webster's dictionary.

Atheism is merely disbelief in god.

Best use loose definitions.

I would say, if you believe in Jesus' wisdom, but not his deity, and use the best of science for finding the nature and origin of the universe and life, the invented term, prognostic is best.

Grizelda, I think there were and are Christian pirates, but before the pirates there were captains and still are, captains of the hearts. A lot of my friends like Mother Theresa, PJP2, I liked John Arnott and even see the good in the late controversial Frank Houston. I even like the effects of Brian Houston on young hearts. Teaching them some purity...
« Last Edit: 18/10/2011 05:11:36 by Titanscape »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #8 on: 18/10/2011 19:11:22 »
"Or agnostic, meaning you or perhaps your dad once believed, but you think you now are unsure? Or are you atheistic, meaning you never believed in a god?"

Any definition which depends on what my dad once believed is just plain silly.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #9 on: 18/10/2011 19:26:27 »
It's cultural, we learn from our fathers. It shows a movement instead of adherence, fidelity. Reasoning as according to trends from our fathers. From fathers comes faith and for some a trend into agnosticism and maybe faith is gone altogether, reasons lost in time, a child chooses not to attend church to find out about god, and is an atheist.
 

Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #10 on: 18/10/2011 19:41:20 »
Children don't always follow in the footsteps of their parents.

Some become more religious.  Some become less religious.  Many convert to a new religion.  And some are "reborn".

I believe that religion is weakest in the scientific fields.  However, while many surgeons have a "God Complex", there are many very religious people throughout the medical field.
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #11 on: 20/10/2011 10:19:10 »
Like many other old farts elder members here, I was given Religious Education at school, I was told that 2 + 2 = 4, that blue + yellow = green, that QEI was the daughter of Henry VIII and I waz tort how two reed and rite. Since all of this was taught by my teachers, I took it all as a matter of fact, including the facts about Moses, Adam & Eve, David & Goliath and Jesus. It was not a question of belief.

So I cannot say that I ever had a belief in religion any more than I can say I had a belief in mathematics, art or history.

As a young lad (I can just about remember being young, once upon a time), I became fascinated by dinosaurs. This sort of thing was not taught at school, so I had to find out for myself. It was this that put me on the road to the discovery of evolution, which in turn led me to question the 'facts' I had been taught about God and religion. I suspect others may have come to question the religious 'facts' they had been taught, in a similar way.

So where, in your categories, does this put me? Since I used to say my prayers and sing hymns, does that make me a convert? Or, as it was not a 'belief', as such, but more an acceptance of 'facts' I learnt at school, am I one who never believed?

Personally, I would class myself as an atheist, but perhaps you think I am prognostic.
« Last Edit: 20/10/2011 10:21:18 by Don_1 »
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #12 on: 20/10/2011 10:54:11 »
Don_1 you can believe in Dinosaurs and evolution, that is, think it is so. But this does not wipe away the belief in god in all who think evolution is real. There are theistic evolutionists... I have an anchor in Jesus from experiences, but before this at 17 yrs old I still thought there was a god.

Einstein had a concept of a god, but his ideas were not according to his Jewish tradition. It does not have to be Jesus.

What do you think or at heart believe, what's your philosophy?
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #13 on: 20/10/2011 11:26:45 »
Perhaps I did not make my point quite clear.

I do not 'believe' in dinosaurs, they are a fact of the Earth's history and were, as such, what first led me to question what I had been taught about religion. Many other questions, of unrelated nature, followed.

As for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, it matters not which of the Abrahamic or any other deity worshipping religions is in question.

My point was quite simply that I did not have a 'belief', but simply took that which I had been taught to be fact, where now I see that these 'facts' are flawed and no longer accept them. The same would apply if I had been taught that 2 + 2 = 5, I would no longer accept that which I had been taught to be true.

Indeed, there are other things which I was taught which no longer can be accepted as being correct. For example, I was taught that there were 9 planets, this, by modern standards, is no longer a fact.

It is a simple case of acceptance of that which you are taught by your superiors, is not a belief. Only in later years and with better knowledge and the ability to discern, does religion become a belief. Only then are you equipped to make an evaluated choice between belief in that which you were taught and rejection.

In my mind, I only ever accepted that which I had been taught, to be fact. Only with the benefit of greater knowledge, understanding and the ability to realise that that which I had been taught, was not fact, but belief, was I able to and understood that I could evaluate the situation and reach my own conclusion. Therefore I would be an atheist rather than prognostic, even though I done all the worshipping business once upon a time.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #14 on: 20/10/2011 14:20:54 »
I suppose the history of the individual does not matter so much.

You mention flawed teaching and facts, yes, who knows what children in public schools will learn in 100 years from now.

Some people hold that there must have been an intelligence behind the universe, after saying they are not sure of the Christians creeds. I'd say they gave come through agnosticism and still loosely are. One of my friends is like that, good luck to him. John, the politics lecturer at JIU. Describing us as like little bugs compared to the higher power. Having lost faith generationaly from his father who ran away from home where he was being forced into the priesthood. His friend my uncle also left the protestant body long ago. But studies Descartes.. as a hobby. Is open minded about miracles, but not a believer.

Buddhists say they don't believe there is no god, but they cannot possibly obtain accurate knowledge of god.

Hindus have a rationality going right back to Purusha who still has following of twenty million, that is parallel to Descartes who in the dawn of European rationality rationalized his faith in god. Such statements as I think therefore I am. Have parallels from thousands of years BC. And so Hindus merely need esteem themselves in their philosophy and read it and listen to gurus and they have a theistic rationality. It makes full sense to them.

Purusha is the beginning of Hindu deities. A non created concept, who lost one third of his angels like Elohim. Indicating it is the same root concept.
« Last Edit: 20/10/2011 14:23:23 by Titanscape »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #15 on: 20/10/2011 19:18:46 »
" that is parallel to Descartes who in the dawn of European rationality rationalized his faith in god."
Descartes' so called "rationalisation" isn't logical. Is Purusha's any better?

Anyway, as I'm sure you have realised, while my dad may or may not believe in God, I think it's nonsense. So, by most conventional definitions I'm an atheist. What I believed before isn't important.
However, just to illustrate the problems with your definitions, I used to believe in God,  the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and monsters under the bed.
I imagine you did too.
I grew out of it as I got older.
Did you?
 

Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #16 on: 20/10/2011 20:04:20 »
Did someone intentionally send life to Earth?

A while ago there was a question of what we should do if we knew Earth was doomed.  On of my suggestions would be to send probes containing bacteria and algae to the far reaches of the galaxy with the intention of spreading the seeds from which life and civilization can grow.

Whether another race intentionally seeded Earth long before humanity evolved, it doesn't mean that they should be worshiped now, nor should one spend hours and days of one's existence to worship an entity that we know nothing about.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #17 on: 20/10/2011 21:06:12 »
I did not believe in Santa from about six.

Intelligence behind the universe, would mean before and above time.

I don't understand, we learn from our fathers. I was somewhat abandoned myself though. Still, those brief meetings made a huge difference.

If you know the faith, then you can know better. But if you never knew, they way you encounter the concepts of faith is different.

I am still discovering Purusha. India in many ways is bigger than England. But not sporty.
« Last Edit: 20/10/2011 21:08:24 by Titanscape »
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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« Reply #18 on: 15/11/2011 17:27:39 »
What would be the term for "I just don't care!" God may or may not be out there doing God stuff. There is no direct connection between my life and what God is up to. (My Christian friends would dispute this). For me, I see no godly influence in my day to day life. So whether he exists or not is completely irrelevant to me.
 

Offline Nizzle

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« Reply #19 on: 16/11/2011 10:35:34 »
What would be the term for "I just don't care!" God may or may not be out there doing God stuff. There is no direct connection between my life and what God is up to. (My Christian friends would dispute this). For me, I see no godly influence in my day to day life. So whether he exists or not is completely irrelevant to me.

That would go in the agnostic category.
An agnostic would say: You cannot prove or disprove there is a god, so we'll never know

You can therefore also have Agnostic Atheists and Agnostic Theists
An AA, like me, says: I don't know if there's a god, but I think there isn't.
An AT would say: I don't know if there's a god, but I think there is.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2011 10:37:13 by Nizzle »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #20 on: 17/11/2011 07:43:59 »
There should probably be another category called "scientist".

A scientist might say it's impossible to prove that no gods exist, but so far, no evidence has been presented that any do.

He might even go further and suggest that, even if evidence for one god is presented, it does not exclude the possibility that there are other gods.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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« Reply #21 on: 17/11/2011 14:37:46 »
Geezer, I do not believe such a category would be relevant. Various scientists can be found who believe in all three of the major groups. There are theist scientists, atheist scientists, and agnostic scientists.
 

Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #22 on: 08/12/2011 23:20:48 »
The first question should be:

What is God?
or What is A God?

The answer should be that God is the being that did the stuff that the Bible says he did.

Did God create the Earth and all the animals on Earth in 7 days?  NO!
Did God create Eve from Adam's rib? NO!
Did God create Man in his image? NO!  On the contrary, one would probably conclude that Man created God in his own image.

So...  That brings one back to the question:
What is God?

Clearly there was not an entity that was what we should expect God to have been.  Perhaps that should be proof enough that God doesn't exist.  One could envision the possibility of super-intelligent aliens visiting Earth in the past.  But, the argument on whether or not that was truly God would be very complex.  And, one certainly has to consider that both humans and animals have evolved over time as well as experiencing catastrophes, independent of God, or our alien brethren.
 

Offline syhprum

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« Reply #23 on: 14/12/2011 08:03:08 »
I share Geezers love of church music especially gospel but certainly do not believe in supernatural beings or any other religious beliefs.
ClffordK
Actualy he only spent 6 days on the job.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2011 08:10:29 by syhprum »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #24 on: 14/12/2011 08:36:08 »
I share Geezers love of church music

It's the Christmas Cantata this weekend. You could nip over and observe the choir, including Geezer, belting out a few numbers.

Come to think of it, Bing Crosby had a place just up the road from here. Must be something to do with the air!
 

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