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Author Topic: Was there a previous universe?  (Read 7505 times)

Offline Don_1

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Was there a previous universe?
« on: 24/01/2012 16:05:52 »
Just a musing from the yawning chasm in my cranium for you to comment on and ridicule poor old moi.

It is said that the background temperature of space is around 2.4 Kelvin (-270.5oC. ) slightly above the fabled Absolute Zero.

Could it be that 50 billion years ago, there was a universe, totally different to ours, existing at temperatures below absolute zero, but warming? Then 14.7 billion years ago the temperature of this previous universe reached minus 0.175 Kelvin. When another billion years went by, just as an aircraft creates a sonic boom when it reaches the sound barrier, the old universe created the Big Bang when it reached, or passed, absolute zero.

As mass, theoretically does not exist below absolute zero, the previous universe may have been composed entirely of a pure form of energy, which upon reaching 0.00000001Kelvin, became matter in an instant.


 

Offline neilep

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #1 on: 24/01/2012 16:43:08 »
Do ewe mean to say we exist in a sequel ?
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #2 on: 24/01/2012 16:55:25 »
Do ewe mean to say we exist in a sequel ?

Well, you could put it that way, as indeed you did. Lets just hope Michael Winner has nowt to do with it.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #3 on: 24/01/2012 23:28:54 »
We do not know and will probably never know for certain if there was a previous universe that in effect created our universe.  However it is my guess that it is highly likely that there was and I will explain more in a moment. 

On the other hand I do not think that your suggestion is likely to be anything like what happened for many reasons, notably because what you describe does not work with the laws of physics as we know them and if you insist on creating your own rules out of fresh air without a good theoretical background you can suggest anything you like.  A much better way is to look at what we know and think a bit. Let me provide an illustration.

Our universe must have come from something and currently most people tend to feel that if you wait long enough one might just happen! or there are just zillions of them "out there" and maybe just the odd one that happens to work properly (our works properly of course!)

I tend to feel that it is a much better bet that a universe (like ours) can create other universes. This means there is a fair chance that they will be similar to ours and work properly.

Now how might our universe create other universes?  Well they would have to be cut off in some way because it would be very inconvenient and messy to have big bangs going off all over the place even if they were very rare and it could get mighty crowded eventually.

We do know of one sort of thing that contains bits of our universe cut off from us almost for ever and that is a black hole.  Most black holes contain about as much material as around ten suns.  There are some very big ones that weigh as much as galaxies but even that is pretty small compared with how much stuff there is in our universe.  However that is the best place to start because what goes in can (almost) never come out even if it did have a big bang inside it because it is enclosed in an ideal impermeable force field of gravity.

The next problem is that black holes are very small.  One with the mass of ten suns is only a few miles across and one with the mass of a galaxy is only as big as our solar system.  "Isn't that a bit cramped for a universe?"  You may ask but once you are inside, its like a Tardis it is as big as you like.

Well what about this "singularity" everyone assumes is in there?  A singularity is a mathematical point of infinite density and infinite energy.  Well that is what the current mathematics says the end result will be unless there is some very different physics at extremely high energies that we do not know anything about.  OK that takes us into the realms of blind speculation which we have agreed to avoid.  Is there anything else that we can say? 

Well we can say quite a lot about what happens as the material collapses on the way to this hypothetical singularity and it all has quite a solid experimental basis from high energy physics like the stuff that is going in the Large hadron collider (LHC).

Firstly as things collapse they get hotter also as it collapses the gravitational field gets even stronger.  When particles at very high energy collide they create more particles tying up some if this excess heat energy in matter, and this can go on for ever!  The reason for this is that every time the radius of the collapsing mass is reduced by 50%, more energy is released and more matter can be created than the previous collapse of 50%.  This is quite a simple calculation based on standard gravitational potential theory and the inverse square law.  That is what the maths says so in theory even a little black hole as it is collapsing inside can create enough matter to make a universe at least as big as ours.

The really big question is then where does all the space, dark matter and dark energy come from to turn this collapse into the big bang that is our universe.  Well that is a question the high energy physicists might just be able to solve with the LHC or maybe a few generations of experiments further down the line. So keep bashing the particles together the theoreticians have not got it all their own way.

Note to the administrators this is NOT a new theory it is totally based on currently accepted practical, theoretical and mathematical grounds it is just that as far as I can see no one is bothering to look in this direction at the moment.  They have beaten the problem to a pulp with mathematics creating string theory with far more possibilities than we can ever explore and are trying to form some ideas of quantum gravity but the standard mathematical routes do not work and geometry again has a lot of possibilities.  However the physical modelling of the goings in inside a rotating or non rotating black hole is quite possible for quite a long way before known physics runs out and one reaches the limit of current high energy modelling.  Looking at this from, a particle physics, geometrical and relativistic fluid dynamics point of view could provide real insight on where to go next.

The concept that I am suggesting here could well be disprovable and like several other important disproved ideas like the Michelson Morley experiment or Fred Hoyle's continuous creation hypothesis.  The disproval of a hypothesis provided a good basis for the next step.
« Last Edit: 24/01/2012 23:56:55 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #4 on: 25/01/2012 13:47:28 »
As far as negative K temperatures...

Temperature can be considered as a vibrational energy of particles, with 0 K being 0 vibrational energy. 

One might think of it 0 K as a new form of ice, and once it hits that, the temperature can fall further.  However, then what exactly is a lower than 0 K temperature?  If it is no vibrational energy, and one can't have negative energy, then one can't have a negative Kelvin temperature.

There may still be kinetic energy associated with directional movement, so if there is a true rest frame, it would be at a lower energy state than a moving frame.

Anyway, I'm doubtful of having a negative-K previous universe.

As far as multiple big bangs...  perhaps the universe goes in cycles of expansion/contraction every few trillion years, certainly nothing to worry about in our lifetimes.  Or, perhaps very rare mini-bangs, where a black hole consumes enough matter that it gets full and explodes.

Another possibility would be multiple big-bangs encroaching on the same space.  Perhaps quite rare, on the order of once every 10 billion years or more.  If an energy front is approaching at nearly the speed of light, we would not see it, or be able to detect it until it hits (December 2012?).

 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #5 on: 26/01/2012 10:02:45 »
As I said, this really is just a musing, not based on any science, but......

............ what you describe does not work with the laws of physics as we know them .......

I do think we have to maintain an open mind on the laws of physics. Laws which might work well and pertain to what we know, or theorise, about the universe, may be turned on their heads in different circumstances.

As Clifford questions, 'is a negative K possible'? Probably not, but if the laws of physics do not apply..........?

I am certainly not defending my idea, I prefer the idea of a cyclic universe, but this is just an exercise in tossing the laws of physics into the air and seeing how they land.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #6 on: 27/01/2012 23:52:01 »
please then explain clearly what you mean by a negative temperature and why a change from a negative temperature to a positive on creates the effects you suggest.  Your ideas will then have some solidity. 

The "law" you wish to change is not some "constant "  like the gravitational constant which might possibly change in extreme conditions but something based on the mathematics of the behaviour of particles and a bit like saying if 2+2 =5 things might be a bit different.
 

Offline Phractality

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #7 on: 28/01/2012 02:30:36 »
Although there are mainstream scientists among the many renegades, crackpots and wackos (myself included) who are positing cosmological models and theories about multiple universes, all such musings belong in the category of philosophy and religion, not science. The mods should move this question to the New Theories section. Until then, I shall not attempt to answer, lest I get in trouble for introducing new theory in the mainstream section.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #8 on: 28/01/2012 09:47:55 »
As I said, this really is just a musing, not based on any science, but......

............ what you describe does not work with the laws of physics as we know them .......

I do think we have to maintain an open mind on the laws of physics. Laws which might work well and pertain to what we know, or theorise, about the universe, may be turned on their heads in different circumstances.

As Clifford questions, 'is a negative K possible'? Probably not, but if the laws of physics do not apply..........?

I am certainly not defending my idea, I prefer the idea of a cyclic universe, but this is just an exercise in tossing the laws of physics into the air and seeing how they land.

I prefer the idea of a cyclic universe and depending on the model chosen, the laws of physics allow for that.  No laws need to be changed or new ones needed.

I don't see how a universe could exist below -0 k.  I think it would require some kind of negative energy as yet totally unknown.  Something equivalent to photons but an anti-photon if you like.  This seems to be very unlikely as a photon is already its own anti-particle.

I think it was Einstein who once said something like "when God created the Universe what choice did he have" meaning were the Laws of Nature pre-existing?  I'm inclined to think that they were, if so, then any other universe would be much the same as ours but that is pure speculation and will forever remain so.
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #9 on: 28/01/2012 11:57:12 »
"Firstly as things collapse they get hotter also as it collapses the gravitational field gets even stronger.  When particles at very high energy collide they create more particles tying up some if this excess heat energy in matter, and this can go on for ever!  The reason for this is that every time the radius of the collapsing mass is reduced by 50%, more energy is released and more matter can be created than the previous collapse of 50%.  This is quite a simple calculation based on standard gravitational potential theory and the inverse square law.  That is what the maths says so in theory even a little black hole as it is collapsing inside can create enough matter to make a universe at least as big as ours."

This would seem to be an even more radical version of Hoyle,s continuos creation theory.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #10 on: 28/01/2012 13:10:08 »
"Firstly as things collapse they get hotter also as it collapses the gravitational field gets even stronger.  When particles at very high energy collide they create more particles tying up some if this excess heat energy in matter, and this can go on for ever!  The reason for this is that every time the radius of the collapsing mass is reduced by 50%, more energy is released and more matter can be created than the previous collapse of 50%.  This is quite a simple calculation based on standard gravitational potential theory and the inverse square law.  That is what the maths says so in theory even a little black hole as it is collapsing inside can create enough matter to make a universe at least as big as ours."

This would seem to be an even more radical version of Hoyle,s continuos creation theory.

I would have thought that the event horizon of a remote black hole (not sucking anything in) would essentially be at zero temperature (ignoring Hawkin Radiation).  What goes on inside is anybodies guess.

Can you explain this in more detail please, preferably with a minimum of maths?

A black hole must contain a finite amount of energy, how can that produce a universe that may or may not be of infinite size and energy?
 

Offline JP

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #11 on: 28/01/2012 13:37:47 »
Although there are mainstream scientists among the many renegades, crackpots and wackos (myself included) who are positing cosmological models and theories about multiple universes, all such musings belong in the category of philosophy and religion, not science. The mods should move this question to the New Theories section. Until then, I shall not attempt to answer, lest I get in trouble for introducing new theory in the mainstream section.


Phractality, you've been asked numerous times to stop complaining publicly about moderation policy on TNS.  It is also not appropriate to tell other users where their posts belong.  If you have complaints or think a post should be moved, you can contact the moderators directly using the "report post" button.  Consider this your final warning on the subject.
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #12 on: 28/01/2012 14:14:14 »
please then explain clearly what you mean by a negative temperature and why a change from a negative temperature to a positive on creates the effects you suggest.  Your ideas will then have some solidity. 

At or (if possible) below zero K, there would be no mass, but upon passing zero K there would be an explosion of mass coming into existance.

But as you rightly say, this musing has no basis in science. It is just an excercise in exploring the possibilities if 2 + 2 could be made to = 5.


For your information Phractality, this is not a new theory. I think any new theory would need to have some degree of scientific basis. I make no claim to this 'musing' being based on anything, therefore it is not deserving of the posting you suggest.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2012 14:20:23 by Don_1 »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #13 on: 28/01/2012 22:32:35 »
Syhprum it is nothing like the continuous creation theory. It is just applying what happens in the LHC or other powerful collision experiments.  Energy is turned into matter.  Equal quantities of matter and antimatter of course.  However we now know there is a slight asymmetry and eventually the matter will build up during the collapse.

MikeS the black hole we see and detect by its gravitational field in our universe has a finite amount of energy and that is what we see and detect.  The rest of this is cut off by the event horizon. it is a simple conservation of energy calculation coupled with the conversion of gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy that does the rest.

Sorry Don you cannot get anywhere by wild surmising, a new idea has to be built on a firm foundation of physics like the one I have just proposed.  I am very happy to invite any other physicists or cosmologists to disprove my simple description of what happens in the early stages of the collapse of the material inside a black hole's event horizon.

What happens later requires a bit more physics and some concepts of what dark matter is when the energies get high enough to start creating dark matter particles.  All that is needed now is something to effectively create "space" from this energy and we would have the possibility of a "big bang".   I have several suggestions but that will take things into the realm of new theories so I will stop here for the moment.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2012 22:36:35 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #14 on: 28/01/2012 23:28:34 »
Gordon Bennett Don_1! Look what you've done now.

In future, kindly refrain from asking such difficult questions.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #15 on: 28/01/2012 23:56:20 »
Perhaps Don is onto something, although he may have it upside-down.

Inside a black hole, there are several forces at work.
  • HEAT: Tends to cause particle movement (volume?)
  • Gravity: Tends to compress, and restrict particle movement
  • Energy-->Matter: Tends to increase gravity, and perhaps increase volume
  • Matter-->Energy: Tends to decrease gravity, and perhaps decrease volume
If matter is compressed so there is no movement, then there is no thermal energy (0K).  Compressing the matter further, the volume might decrease, and in fact give one negative thermal energy. (-K).

One could imagine the wrestling of these transformations within a black hole.

I tend to think of a Large Black Hole as becoming a single molecule, with perhaps an atomic number of 1x101000, which in itself, would be extraordinary unstable.

The last transition, Mater-->Energy,
With a certain amount of crushing, beyond 0 particle movement (and beyond 0K), there may be a threshold where the black hole begins to collapse, and starts converting matter into pure energy.  Which could cause the black hole to evaporate in an instant with a "Big Bang".
« Last Edit: 29/01/2012 00:27:36 by CliffordK »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #16 on: 29/01/2012 09:52:18 »
CliffordK you have several fundamental errors in there and you need to learn a bit more proper physics but you are sort of on the right track.

Don  maybe I can explain things a little bit better than I have done so far and help you to understand what I am on about.  Temperature is all about positive free energy in the motion of particles that make up matter. It is therefore not possible to have a negative temperature because the concept of negative energy in that context does not exist.  Note even at absolute zero the atoms still contain a lot of energy of motion as well as energy tied up in mass but all of that is not free.

However when you come to gravitation the situation is very different. 

Say you have a large volume of cold gas collapsing under its own gravity.   This is how stars are formed.  As the gas collapses under gravity it is compressed and get hotter. (remember your bicycle pump getting hot as you compress the gas to pump up your tyres).   I repeat hotter, please note CliffordK compression and "restricting movement" makes things hotter not colder.  This is a load of positive energy that has come from the release of gravitational energy. It follows that gravitational energy is your source of negative energy.  This is where you need to look for your source of energy.

However again I stress that there is no way of getting out of a black hole. So there cannot be any explosion in our universe.  Any explosion, if it exists, is somewhere else and we cannot be aware of it.  We can only create theoretical models of what might happen.  The currently accepted statement that a mathematical singularity exists in the middle of a black hole is just another way of saying we don't really know at the moment.  It is a bit like saying our universe will become dead cold and empty  in the far distant future so it is pointless and uninteresting. 

However if a universe in running through its life from big bang to heat death has created a vast number of new universes on the way to which it is (in theory) possible to go (but never return).  It might give you more cause for enthusiasm among those who feel that there being some point in everything is important.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #17 on: 29/01/2012 10:46:09 »
I am aware of the ideal gas law.  But, a Black Hole is very far from being an ideal gas.

Say you compress an atom to the volume of its protons and neutrons. 
If it was an ideal gas, it should get hotter.
However, as a super dense solid, the atom is no longer able to vibrate in the same way as molecules in a gas would, and thus, it can not act as if it is gaining heat in the traditional way.

If you think of our oceans on Earth, part of what causes the deep oceans to be cold is the density gradient (which causes movement of warm and cold water).  The higher the pressure, the colder the water that one finds.

Some people have suggested further compression of matter within the Black Hole to a density greater than protons and neutrons in normal matter.  Movement has to be restricted in this case.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #18 on: 29/01/2012 11:44:19 »
Syhprum it is nothing like the continuous creation theory. It is just applying what happens in the LHC or other powerful collision experiments.  Energy is turned into matter.  Equal quantities of matter and antimatter of course.  However we now know there is a slight asymmetry and eventually the matter will build up during the collapse.

MikeS the black hole we see and detect by its gravitational field in our universe has a finite amount of energy and that is what we see and detect.  The rest of this is cut off by the event horizon. it is a simple conservation of energy calculation coupled with the conversion of gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy that does the rest.

Sorry Don you cannot get anywhere by wild surmising, a new idea has to be built on a firm foundation of physics like the one I have just proposed.  I am very happy to invite any other physicists or cosmologists to disprove my simple description of what happens in the early stages of the collapse of the material inside a black hole's event horizon.

What happens later requires a bit more physics and some concepts of what dark matter is when the energies get high enough to start creating dark matter particles.  All that is needed now is something to effectively create "space" from this energy and we would have the possibility of a "big bang".   I have several suggestions but that will take things into the realm of new theories so I will stop here for the moment.
Can you give references for that please?
That still seems to be implying that you can produce something out of nothing?  Only a finite amount of energy went in regardless of whether you can see it or not.  I still don't see how potentially this could become an infinite amount.  The gravitational potential energy contained within the EH is limited by the amount of energy that went in.
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #19 on: 29/01/2012 11:50:35 »
Gordon Bennett Don_1! Look what you've done now.

In future, kindly refrain from asking such difficult questions.

Begging your pardon Sire, I shall refrain from such activity in the futur............

Just a minute.........WHAT??? You mean to tell me I asked a difficult question!!!

Stone me! That's a first, I must put this event in my dairy diary.... Oh I don't know though, maybe I was right the first time.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #20 on: 29/01/2012 11:58:58 »
CliffordK you have several fundamental errors in there and you need to learn a bit more proper physics but you are sort of on the right track.

Don  maybe I can explain things a little bit better than I have done so far and help you to understand what I am on about.  Temperature is all about positive free energy in the motion of particles that make up matter. It is therefore not possible to have a negative temperature because the concept of negative energy in that context does not exist.  Note even at absolute zero the atoms still contain a lot of energy of motion as well as energy tied up in mass but all of that is not free.

However when you come to gravitation the situation is very different. 

Say you have a large volume of cold gas collapsing under its own gravity.   This is how stars are formed.  As the gas collapses under gravity it is compressed and get hotter. (remember your bicycle pump getting hot as you compress the gas to pump up your tyres).   I repeat hotter, please note CliffordK compression and "restricting movement" makes things hotter not colder.  This is a load of positive energy that has come from the release of gravitational energy. It follows that gravitational energy is your source of negative energy.  This is where you need to look for your source of energy.

However again I stress that there is no way of getting out of a black hole. So there cannot be any explosion in our universe.  Any explosion, if it exists, is somewhere else and we cannot be aware of it.  We can only create theoretical models of what might happen.  The currently accepted statement that a mathematical singularity exists in the middle of a black hole is just another way of saying we don't really know at the moment.  It is a bit like saying our universe will become dead cold and empty  in the far distant future so it is pointless and uninteresting. 

However if a universe in running through its life from big bang to heat death has created a vast number of new universes on the way to which it is (in theory) possible to go (but never return).  It might give you more cause for enthusiasm among those who feel that there being some point in everything is important.
Whilst this is true for the standard model, it remains only a model and the known laws of physics do allow for other scenarios.  For example if matter and antimatter gravitationally repel each other then antimatter particles could escape the EH.
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #21 on: 29/01/2012 12:17:39 »
Soul Surfer, I accept that a particle is either moving or stationary and I cannot see how there can be anything beyond stationary, so -K should be impossible whatever laws of physics may apply.

But to quote from your post, "The currently accepted statement that a mathematical singularity exists in the middle of a black hole is just another way of saying we don't really know at the moment." That really is the cruckst* of the matter. There is so much we don't know and it is, perhaps, only by such wild and even nonsensical jibbering, that ideas and theories may be reached.


*Cruckst - Anyone know the correct spelling of this word? I can't say as I have ever had occasion to write it before, and I can't find the correct spelling. Am I right, or should it be 'cruxt', 'crukst', 'crucst'?

He enquired, just realising he had speelt 'nonsesicle' rong and kwickly puting it write.....
Ooer, sorry Geezer, I hope that's not another difficult question.
« Last Edit: 29/01/2012 12:23:13 by Don_1 »
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #22 on: 29/01/2012 22:27:41 »
Don
Now that we have lost our spell checker I find the best way is to take a copy of my text and load it into a windows live mail email and then copy the corrected version back, the work of a moment thats the crux of the matter.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #23 on: 29/01/2012 23:20:08 »
The speeling chucker seams to wurk OK with Firefox. Itz actuary butter than the old one cos itz interactive ewe sea.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #24 on: 30/01/2012 08:37:58 »
Mike and others.  The energy available from gravitational collapse comes from simple maths by the integration of the energy gained by a particle as it approaches a gravitating point source from a very large distance under the inverse square law.  Most of this comes when it is getting close to the gravitating point.

This is a good ref that shows the maths

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/gpot.html

You must also remember that a spherical object collapsing under its own gravity can be treated as a gravitational point source at the sphere's centre (of gravity).  This applies to particles both inside and outside of the surface of the sphere with the mass defined by the mass within the sphere defined by the radius from the location of the centre of gravity.

It follows that any object that is collapsing under its own gravity towards a mathematical point (however small the initial object) can release an infinite quantity of energy. 

We only need enough to create a reasonably sized universe like ours!
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Was there a previous universe?
« Reply #24 on: 30/01/2012 08:37:58 »

 

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