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Author Topic: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?  (Read 3239 times)

Offline neilep

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How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« on: 29/02/2012 17:25:53 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !


 

Offline CZARCAR

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #1 on: 29/02/2012 18:14:58 »
resultant antigravity?
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #2 on: 29/02/2012 18:46:14 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #3 on: 29/02/2012 18:52:54 »
resultant antigravity?

Can we commercialise it ?   ;)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #4 on: 29/02/2012 18:56:40 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.

Thanks Mike


It's difficult to grasp how something which is supposed to be infinitely dense and infinitely gravitational can actually merge with an equivalent singularity.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #5 on: 29/02/2012 19:49:22 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.

Thanks Mike


It's difficult to grasp how something which is supposed to be infinitely dense and infinitely gravitational can actually merge with an equivalent singularity.

It can be infinitely dense but still contain a finite amount of mass.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #6 on: 01/03/2012 09:37:37 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.

Thanks Mike


It's difficult to grasp how something which is supposed to be infinitely dense and infinitely gravitational can actually merge with an equivalent singularity.

It can be infinitely dense but still contain a finite amount of mass.


Thanks Mike. I'm just stumped still !..Would not something that is infinitely dense be impenetrable ?.. indestructible ?..and yet when two collide they are obviously able to be manipulated pass their invulnerable boundaries !
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #7 on: 01/03/2012 09:58:20 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.

Thanks Mike


It's difficult to grasp how something which is supposed to be infinitely dense and infinitely gravitational can actually merge with an equivalent singularity.

It can be infinitely dense but still contain a finite amount of mass.


Thanks Mike. I'm just stumped still !..Would not something that is infinitely dense be impenetrable ?.. indestructible ?..and yet when two collide they are obviously able to be manipulated pass their invulnerable boundaries !

I guess all we can do is speculate on what goes on inside the EH of a black hole.  Presumably the singularity is as you say impenetrable but between the singularity and the event horizon there must (?) be a gravitational gradient and therefore a density gradient.  If so, then this would allow for the possibility of penetration (or merger) by something more dense.
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #8 on: 01/03/2012 10:03:52 »
Whilst current knowledge tends toward predictions of singularities at the centre of black holes - this is based on large scale physics, ie General Relativity.  But we know from other realms that when you get to the very small (and a singularity is pretty tiny) you have to take notice of the quantum world.  At present we still don't have a working model of quantum gravity - but one of the areas that needs it is blackholes (and the big bang).  Hawking has already shown that a quantum view of the immediate outside of the event horizon brings up previously unthought of ideas - ie the concept that blackholes radiate.

It is almost always worth getting rid of infinities - mathematical singularities - if one can; they make the whole thing very difficult. 
 

Offline neilep

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #9 on: 02/03/2012 09:41:36 »
Ok, you have your black hole yes?...your bog standard collapsed star extreme high gravitational blacky holey thing ok ?


And at the center is an area that is comprised of an infinite dense and infinite gravity thing yes?...a singularity !

So, if it's ' infinite'...how can two of them collide and become one  ?


see ?...gotcha !!...*I'm a klevur sheepy ! *le smug*










* Yes yes I know.....soon to be made to look like a silly sheepy !

For the same reason that light appears to have the same velocity independent of an observers reference frame.  That answer is likely to get me into trouble so here is another one.  Infinity + infinity = infinity.

Thanks Mike


It's difficult to grasp how something which is supposed to be infinitely dense and infinitely gravitational can actually merge with an equivalent singularity.

It can be infinitely dense but still contain a finite amount of mass.


Thanks Mike. I'm just stumped still !..Would not something that is infinitely dense be impenetrable ?.. indestructible ?..and yet when two collide they are obviously able to be manipulated pass their invulnerable boundaries !

I guess all we can do is speculate on what goes on inside the EH of a black hole.  Presumably the singularity is as you say impenetrable but between the singularity and the event horizon there must (?) be a gravitational gradient and therefore a density gradient.  If so, then this would allow for the possibility of penetration (or merger) by something more dense.




Thank you again Mike.


As you say..it's all down to speculation and I do appreciate your time in explaining it to me. I'm left wondering  (based on your speculation) how could one infinite dense thing be more dense than another infinite dense thing to be able to possibly merge ?...they're both infinite !...but I know we are in the realms of speculation again !  :)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #10 on: 02/03/2012 09:47:33 »
Whilst current knowledge tends toward predictions of singularities at the centre of black holes - this is based on large scale physics, ie General Relativity.  But we know from other realms that when you get to the very small (and a singularity is pretty tiny) you have to take notice of the quantum world.  At present we still don't have a working model of quantum gravity - but one of the areas that needs it is blackholes (and the big bang).  Hawking has already shown that a quantum view of the immediate outside of the event horizon brings up previously unthought of ideas - ie the concept that blackholes radiate.

It is almost always worth getting rid of infinities - mathematical singularities - if one can; they make the whole thing very difficult. 

Thanks imatfaal....quantum eh ?..I sheepose this is where they say the ususal laws of physics break down...However, I guess it's all a perfectly natural thing that's happening down there..it just needs to be quantified into the right equation/law.....simples !!  ...have a cuppa tea....you can do it  :D

Thanks again .
 

Online yor_on

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #11 on: 03/03/2012 19:13:56 »
I think all 'centers' of a singularity is somehow the same my self :)

It becomes meaningless to try to define them in form of mass if they are 'dimensionless points' although you will find different sized 'Black Holes' according to their event horizon and 'apparent mass'.

That is, if there is a 'dimension less point' at that center.
 

Offline LetoII

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #12 on: 24/03/2012 03:10:04 »
black holes dont have hawking radiation, he admitted his defeat and agreed that there was no loss of information when stuff enters a black hole. All goes in and nothing goes out.

for the 2 black holes colliding, im puzzled by it too, they seem to merge without any of the violent behaviour i would've imagined.

 

Offline CZARCAR

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #13 on: 26/03/2012 05:07:33 »
i seen a pic where 2 Bholes crash & squirt a jet/gastream NOSHIT!= check ur satellites
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #14 on: 26/03/2012 08:43:28 »
LetoII  You are precisely wrong about Stephen Hawking's bet  He bet that the information was lost and never came out in the Hawking radiation but late accepted that someone else had proved that in effect the information did come out.  Others have latched on to this and suggested that if  a cabbage went in, some time later the black hole would throw out a cabbage this is not true what comes out is the energy of the cabbage in a different form, mostly as very low frequency electromagnetic (and probably gravitational)radiation.

There is no suggestion that Hawking radiation does not exist even though it has not yet been observed

Re colliding black holes.  Two black holes can orbit each other and lose energy by gravitational radiatoion and eventually merge their event horizons to become a larger black hole.  What happens inside their common event horizon after that is open to question (and possibly modelling for a while) 

No one appears to be prepared to model in detail as far as particle physics is concerned what could happen inside a single simple or rotating black hole from the time it first forms up to the limits of our high energy physics knowledge they just go straight to the mathematical singularity concept.  This is quite possible to explore using modern modelling concepts We wont know properly what happens inside a black hole until they do.  This is a bit like saying nothing is important is happening in our universe now because everything ends with the heat death!
 

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Re: How Do Two Black Holes Collide ?
« Reply #14 on: 26/03/2012 08:43:28 »

 

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