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Author Topic: Do science and religion have any common ground?  (Read 23979 times)

Offline Starburst1

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #50 on: 21/09/2013 18:53:26 »

Science and religion may indeed share a commonality especially when mathematics is involved if indeed the Fibonacci sequence produces a spiral form that generates the complete Hebrew alphabet.  ???

 

Offline Szostak

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #51 on: 21/09/2013 23:08:42 »
Can't believe if people who are PhD and still religious, they should have realized something by now.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #52 on: 22/09/2013 03:10:55 »
I was surprised to hear the statistic that the Catholic church has funded more free medical care than any other group or organization. (No, I'm not Catholic.) If there is common ground, it is empathy and good works of people who hold different beliefs or see the world in different ways. The Dalia Lama once said "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
« Last Edit: 22/09/2013 03:12:29 by cheryl j »
 

Offline Szostak

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #53 on: 22/09/2013 06:14:28 »
As long as people are not fighting, hating, destroying or taking advantage from kind people, i'm fine with any religion, but as most religions do that, then i hate them, though i respect kind people.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #54 on: 22/09/2013 09:14:06 »
Science and religion may indeed share a commonality especially when mathematics is involved if indeed the Fibonacci sequence produces a spiral form that generates the complete Hebrew alphabet.  ???

This would be interesting if (a) it is true, (b) Judaic law and history derive from the Hebrew alphabet and (c) there is no other religion. I think not.

The Dalia Lama once said "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."

A year or so ago I heard an interesting radio play whilst driving to work. A modern Gulliver fetched up in a society whose only law was "be nice". He had a great time, everything was lovely, and then he asked "what do you do to people who break the law?" Unfortunately I arrived at my destination before the question was answered! Any suggestions would be most welcome.
 

Offline Starburst1

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #55 on: 22/09/2013 18:04:34 »
Quote from: Starburst1 on 21/09/2013 17:53:26

Quote
Science and religion may indeed share a commonality especially when mathematics is involved if indeed the Fibonacci sequence produces a spiral form that generates the complete Hebrew alphabet.  ???


Quote
This would be interesting if (a) it is true, (b) Judaic law and history derive from the Hebrew alphabet and (c) there is no other religion. I think not.


Alan you have not read this book.  Perhaps if you saw the pictures illustrated in the book you might think otherwise.  If you did see them (a) you would know it is true, and (b) Judiaic law and history IS DERIVED from the Hebrew alphabet since it was given (by God) to Moses at Mt. Sinai establishing the Old Testament, and (c) all other religions are derived from the old Canaanite and Adamic religion.  Did you know that all religions of the world know about a "Tree" in a garden, and also a Great Flood?

Here is a picture of the spiral form.  In the book it shows this spiral form that is a product of natures law (the Fibonacci sequence) which permeates throughout all the natural world and way into the universe. Now this particular spiral form when you turn it around in your hand, you can see that at different angles it produces other recognizable Hebrew letters. As it turns out this particular spiral shape produces the complete Hebrew alphabet. There is no other writing in the world that does this.

« Last Edit: 22/09/2013 19:15:17 by Starburst1 »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #56 on: 22/09/2013 19:31:26 »
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There is no other writing in the world that does this.

Apart from Greek, Arabic, Hindi.... in fact pretty much all scripts (except Roman, Chinese (including Japanese and Korean) and runes) have an apparent spiral form.

The shape of Hebrew characters is due to their being drawn in ink with a broad flat nib, rather like modern Italic handwriting. It may look like a twisted ribbon, but it ain't. It's a consequence of writing on parchment with a metal nib, whilst Chinese characters are a consequence of using a brush on paper, and Roman and runic inscriptions derive from stylus and chisel work. Technology, not divinity, determines how we record our thoughts.

If you accept that Stonehenge and its ilk were religious sites (I don't, but that's another story) you'd be hard put to say how its users derived their beliefs from the same source as Judaism, and modern polytheisms have no discernible similarity with "thou shalt have no other god but me".  IIRC, a lot of the Torah dealt with my ancestors' wars with various polytheists and ancestor-worshippers who clearly didn't think that their faith derived from ours. 

 
 

Offline Starburst1

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #57 on: 22/09/2013 20:04:40 »
Alan, you can make your own mind up and are free to your own opinion.  However the pictures in this case do not lie. Religion does not get in the way of my reasoning. I was in disbelief and had to make a matching spiral form to prove it to myself.  It is true that other letters from other alphabets may be made with a spiral of sorts, but guaranteed they are not all produced from a single form (a product of the Fibonacci sequence), and that one form is able to produce every single letter of that alphabet.  I’ve looked at other alphabets already, and it just isn’t happening.  The Hebrew is the only one that does it. 

Now we need to ask the question of WHY?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #58 on: 23/09/2013 00:09:24 »
For the same reason that the DNA spiral pitch is a fibonacci ratio, perhaps? You see, my ancestors decoded the human genome 6000 years ago and hid the secret in our alphabet, thus making us masters of the universe. If it hadn't been for those pesky Hindus discovering the fibonacci numbers 1000 years before fibonacci, and the sunflower arranging its seeds in a fiibonacci pattern several million years before that,  the subject might be remotely interesting to a complete nutter. As it is, we simply devised an alphabet that could be written on parchment with a metal nib.

The real question is why, having devised an alphabet to be written with the right hand, we wrote it from right to left?
 

Offline Starburst1

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #59 on: 23/09/2013 04:22:08 »
That would be a good theory that our ancestors designed it and not God, however this theory lacks several things……  #1 the code imbeds deeper into what’s called “The Bible Code”, and #2 it appears to be divinely inspired because many of the prophesies have been fulfilled pertaining to the Messiah.  Who but God could have predicted the future and encoded it into His word for future generations to find?

You ask why it is written from right to left?  The Torah is a scroll, which means that it spirals. It has a right side and a left side (both ends spiral).  It is my theory that God designed the Torah to spiral and therefore had instructed us to write with our left hand in order to hold the other side of the Torah parchment with our left hand.  We write with our right hand backwards so that as we write our right wrist holds open the scroll on the right side, and so that is why the writing goes from right to left. Also if you look inside a Torah scroll you will see that the paragraphs and borders are short about the size of a human hand writing in one spot (so that it would not have to move). Additionally I looked it up….   According to Kabala, the right side symbolizes greater spiritual revelation, as opposed to the left ("weaker") side, which symbolizes a "weaker" manifestation of spirituality.


 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #60 on: 23/09/2013 08:18:47 »
Quote
That would be a good theory that our ancestors designed it and not God, however this theory lacks several things……  #1 the code imbeds deeper into what’s called “The Bible Code”, and #2 it appears to be divinely inspired because many of the prophesies have been fulfilled pertaining to the Messiah.  Who but God could have predicted the future and encoded it into His word for future generations to find?

"Our" ancestors? If we shared such a common ancestry (or even if you cared about history) you wouldn't consider the messianic prophecies to be fulfilled.

Your theory demands the existence of a god - evidence sadly lacking, alas.

And an utterly stupid god. If omnipotent, why not embed the answers in the human brain (self-copying) instead of a coded scroll (easily lost, damaged, mis-copied, or misinterpreted)?

I like the explanation of R to L writing, though. Very clever! Except that as you write with your right hand, the right-hand scroll moves leftward and smudges what you have just written - exactly the problem that lefthanded western writers have (though a lefthanded lecturer is a delight - he moves away from the blackboard as he writes).

The problem with a scroll is that it only permits linear access. A benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent god would have invented bookbinding, which makes it a lot easier to copy, edit, correct, repair and access the bit you need. 

Sorry, but your arguments are selfcontradictory!
« Last Edit: 23/09/2013 08:24:49 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Starburst1

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #61 on: 23/09/2013 17:59:23 »
I will leave you on that note Alan, but think and ponder on the Hebrew letters (coming from a single form) a little longer.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #62 on: 23/09/2013 18:46:56 »
Delighted to have made your acquaintance - and welcome to the deep end!

I have no doubt that Hebrew script, just like Chinese, Roman and Runic, is based on a single form, but there's a considerable difference in origin between a mapped spiral and the stroke of a flat pen, even if they look similar. Interestingly it was the chance recognition of the mapping of a helix into k-space that led to the unravelling of DNA, but sadly it wasn't the Jewish member of the team that spotted it!
 

Offline Europan Ocean

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #63 on: 29/10/2013 04:40:35 »
Well, by the twenties the religious disliked cigars and too much alcohol. Now we have common ground here, after research by religious and secular day workers working together.

And studying Homo Sapien DNA and other species like Orangutans, we see that Orangutans have a lot in common with each other and with us 95% or 98%, evidence of a common source of the old human blue prints. And that Orangutans have mixed more with a variety of races than us.

We have more like 99% in common with each other and it is evidence we come from a family, a small tribe, without mixing with other races with the exotic DNA. As with the story of the only family of eight saved from the flood.

With regards to intellectuals like PHD holders, the top most science degree would be psychiatry. The matriculation from high school needs the graduate to have studied maths, language, and sciences and gained about 90% to 95% of the questions right, minimum. They have to first do a full medical degree, in which they take the responsibility of other human lives. Then further study of the brain and psychology.

They may often doubt Christ Jesus' resurrection, but others form Catholic or Evangelical Drs organizations... Some study people at death, or go through near death themselves, and find they remain conscious. And promote dualism.

Among intellectuals in the sciences, Richard Dawkins interviewed one called Alister E McGrath as you can see on youtube. It was not included on the Television documentary. Alister has a view in which science and religion have common ground, perhaps in his novels.

World wars 1 and 2 were secular and would not have happened if Germany and Japan had been Christian committed governments at the time. We have in common, we dislike war. The like of peace, happiness and good character are in common.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2013 04:45:46 by Europan Ocean »
 

Offline SimpleEngineer

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #64 on: 29/10/2013 09:14:05 »
I chortle when the 'values' of the religeous are mentioned.. let us not forget that religion has caused the majority of the conflict throughout history..

Religion has been used as a stick to control populations since the dawn of time.. with the promise of that far off carrot of eternal life or things of that ilk. Why do you think religions generally have a list of things to do and not do, and usually involve a form of taxation or wealth distribution.

HOWEVER.. I believe that religions do also make the world a MUCH better place, the kindness, self sacrificing nature of humanity has a lot to thank religion for. Without religion would we all still live in tribes throwing sticks at each other?

For me science and religion share the one truth.. "There is so much in the universe that is unknown" and the understanding that working together is much better than working against each other. Problem is some religions want to be the only religion (probably so the leaders of that religion get richer and more powerful) which is a reflection of true human nature.. Science used to keep human nature out of the findings, but it is slowly creeping its way in.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #65 on: 29/10/2013 15:17:08 »
World wars 1 and 2 were secular and would not have happened if Germany and Japan had been Christian committed governments at the time. We have in common, we dislike war. The like of peace, happiness and good character are in common.

Never mind the Crusades, the Conquistadores, or any of that historical rubbish. Are you suggesting that Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher, and George W Bush were not committed christians? That's tantamount to accusing politicians of hypocrisy! How dare you? Especially as the Blessed Saint Margaret quoted no less a person that St Francis of Assissi as her inspiration. I would be reprimanded if I made such a suggestion on these boards!
 

Offline Europan Ocean

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #66 on: 30/10/2013 13:14:08 »
Ancient and medieval people were so different to us in education, work, values, sense of being, nation and destiny... they were programmed differently. But what does not change are things like anger, love, security, a need to act together, fraternize...

We have the conscience and machinations, and sex drive and child rearing desires and for the first time in human history, it is under control with the pill.

Regardless of what religion we have, or atheism, people, nations fight. There are good and bad people. Things go better with the endorsement of the conscience in schools and the press and the government. The conscience may not be something mentioned in any communications were it not for Moses, Jesus, Peter the apostle and Martin Luther. Not for a two thousand years literally.

Luther himself was a hard man.

The conscience, compassion, love, honour, mercy, fairness, benevolence, rights, freedoms, business equity, privacy, protection, medicine and love of truth are liked by both religious and scientists. Mainly the earlier, where it comes from, but the name was spoiled by bigots and the ambitious.

Tony Blair was not such a user of warfare because of the saints. He would have used it if he was an atheist.

If instead of Hitler there was a most popular governor who put Christ before nation in trust, Christ teaching would have prevented conflict.

« Last Edit: 30/10/2013 13:16:22 by Europan Ocean »
 

Offline Europan Ocean

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #67 on: 28/01/2015 10:04:49 »
Before the big bang, there was not time and chance and probability as we know it. What is seen and understood is not from in time or what is seen. It comes from above time.

The universe is not up to chance and probability. What the universe comes from need not look random and under the effects of entropy... We have that in common.
 

Offline Finding the Elephant

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #68 on: 28/02/2015 07:49:28 »
The trick is understanding and appreciating the benefits of both. Taking sides is not necessary
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #69 on: 28/02/2015 18:41:00 »
The great benefit of religions is that they serve as a reservoir from which fanatics emerge who have decided to try to do their religion by the book, and then they kill in the name of their god by applying all the worst laws they can find in their holy book(s) which give them an excuse to harm innocent people. More reasonable religious people pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore, so they aren't following their religion properly, but they are giving it a respectability which it doesn't deserve, and that's extremely dangerous.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #70 on: 28/02/2015 22:38:45 »
In short, religion gives people an excuse for doing things that would otherwise be considered insane or evil. Science doesn't.
 

Offline Europan Ocean

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #71 on: 18/03/2015 01:57:12 »
If you look at plants and animals and people. Animals and people can be violent but people can decide on their own character to some extent. Problems emerge in tribes, but civilization, now that that is the big dangerous matter! It's people not religion. Once religion is in people, then comes the trouble. Not all religions are alike. Christianity is a religion of the conscience and compassion and justice, love and light. It is benevolent. Adherents of theology may not be sincere compassionate people.

The ancient Roman Catholic church went wrong here in the 8th or 9th century, becoming political and without spiritual power. Maybe because of early hardship under Nero and other persecutors and then the half conversion of Rome to there being Christianity as state religion. Then the loss of Constantinople and military danger dangers... with a Pope as head of state.

In this time the popes became austere and like dictators.

In this scene there was growth in scientific knowledge and no possible movements like Nazism or Communism, Idi Amin...

Luther broke away as a matter of conscience, with German headship, but he was still austere.

In the free countries science was a tool for war technology. Nazism renounced Christianity and was one of the greatest evils we know of with was it, 68,000,000 dead?

Communism under atheist Stalin also cost needless suffering and millions of dead and the threat within the cold war.

If we interpret the rules of Moses and the principles of Jesus with conscience, that is what is intended. Your knowledge and use of the word conscience would not exist without the conversion of Rome from Paganism and Luther.

Science on it's own is without an anchor in ethics and does things like eugenics, euthanasia, experiments on human embryos, abortion, the invention of neutron bombs and the consideration of replacing parts of the justice system with evolutionary drives.

Among us are some dangerous people. conscience and fairness keeps thing in order.
« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 02:00:48 by Europan Ocean »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #72 on: 18/03/2015 03:33:41 »
my religion is kindness. that's pretty cool.

my religion is love, that's best religion.

my name is joe
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #73 on: 18/03/2015 19:57:02 »
in short, no thing lied more than science. y2k, time travel, ftl travel, graviton, photon, energy level, god particle, in order to get fund, have a job.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #74 on: 19/03/2015 20:59:01 »
in short, no thing lied more than science. y2k...

I can't be bothered commenting on the rest of the list, but y2k was a real potential threat and the fuss made about it made sure that nothing went wrong. Had no fuss been made, a disaster might well have resulted from it, and if that had happened, all the idiots going on about the stupidity of the y2k warnings now would have spent the last 14 years throwing blame around instead and accusing people of being idiots for standing back and doing nothing when any fool could see the danger.
 

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Re: Do science and religion have any common ground?
« Reply #74 on: 19/03/2015 20:59:01 »

 

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