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Author Topic: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?  (Read 7107 times)

Offline graham.d

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Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« on: 20/04/2012 10:16:31 »
I see the latest, and painstaking, research by Turyshev, Toth and Ellis, Kinsella, Lee and Lok seems to show that both Pioneer crafts anomolous deceleration is due to thermal radiation from the instruments and from the nuclear power source. This must be disappointing to those looking for the somewhat more exotic explanations.


 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #1 on: 20/04/2012 10:50:25 »
It would seem that all the exotic explanation is now over rather like the superluminal Nuetrino's
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #2 on: 20/04/2012 11:21:03 »
It's a shame for the conspiracy theorists - but I love it.

Thanks for mentioning it , I hadn't heard. 

Here is the paper on arxiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2507
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #3 on: 22/04/2012 06:48:29 »
"To this end, relying on the project and spacecraft design documentation, we constructed a comprehensive finite-element thermal model of the two spacecraft. Then, we numerically solve thermal conduction and radiation equations using the actual flight telemetry as boundary conditions. We use the results of this model to evaluate the effect of the thermal recoil force on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft at various heliocentric distances. We found that the magnitude, temporal behavior, and direction of the resulting thermal acceleration are all similar to the properties of the observed anomaly."
http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2507

If you are looking for an explanation that FITS a certain set of criteria you are likely to find it.  An explanation that PREDICTS that criteria would be better science, it seems to me.
« Last Edit: 22/04/2012 06:50:56 by MikeS »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #4 on: 23/04/2012 10:12:48 »
Read a study about cancer and research. Seems as the pressure on scientists to come up with new and interesting  research may make them somewhat sloppy. As it cost money to manufacture new drugs, as well as you always have to consider side effects the companies tried to duplicate the finding..

failing.

It's not that the researchers made studies up, it's just that as the research gets complicated, and there are 'synergies' etc from what happens in the metabolism there may be no certain results, although if a researcher choose the most 'popular' to publish they will get a recognition they otherwise might lose. A human failing, and money..
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #5 on: 23/04/2012 10:17:02 »
So yes, I believe those guys more Graham :) the longer they build their case.
And those people has been studying it for a pretty long time as I remember.
 

Offline ZHUYH

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #6 on: 24/04/2012 09:29:14 »
<link removed by mod>

Could you possibly give the forum a quick summary of your idea rather than just post a link - thanks Mod.
« Last Edit: 24/04/2012 09:42:06 by imatfaal »
 

Offline ZHUYH

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #7 on: 24/04/2012 09:36:26 »
<link removed by moderator again>
« Last Edit: 24/04/2012 09:42:43 by imatfaal »
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #8 on: 25/04/2012 04:01:30 »
It's a shame for the conspiracy theorists - but I love it.

I have to say something about this comment Imatfaal.  I am not quite sure what you mean, maybe 2012, Planet X or something like that.  I think if you removed conspiracy you are now in the realm of criticising the method of science itself. 
Without theories what can we test.  As for the conspiracy part of this, well to me conspiracy is a word that has been used to label people as crackpots.  This is a subversive technique employed to dis-empower people with genuine questions whether from an educated or uneducated angle.  If someone with an imagination theorizes that the possible cause of the anomalies could be an undiscovered planet then why not investigate or at least try to answer the question scientifically.
Would it not be true to state that in some cases the data comes back and we think to ourselves, well that's so obvious and simple.  In other cases the data comes back and we think, wow that's amazing even a imaginative theorist would not have come up with that one.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #9 on: 25/04/2012 11:50:08 »
I think that what Imaatfal meant Airthumbs, is that a lot of people today want to find faults with 'c' being an constant as well as 'gravity' as a room time geometry. Because to do so would make you a 'instant SuperStar', worldwide. The best Scientists don't bother with that, they have their own intuitions and ideas, mostly building on what is experimentally confirmed. And there both 'c' and 'gravity' is confirmed, as far as I'm concerned. And I guess that is what Imatfaal meant. Not that he looked down on people using their minds.
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #10 on: 25/04/2012 15:23:51 »
It's a shame for the conspiracy theorists - but I love it.

I have to say something about this comment Imatfaal.  I am not quite sure what you mean, maybe 2012, Planet X or something like that.  I think if you removed conspiracy you are now in the realm of criticising the method of science itself. 
Without theories what can we test.  As for the conspiracy part of this, well to me conspiracy is a word that has been used to label people as crackpots.  This is a subversive technique employed to dis-empower people with genuine questions whether from an educated or uneducated angle.  If someone with an imagination theorizes that the possible cause of the anomalies could be an undiscovered planet then why not investigate or at least try to answer the question scientifically.
Would it not be true to state that in some cases the data comes back and we think to ourselves, well that's so obvious and simple.  In other cases the data comes back and we think, wow that's amazing even a imaginative theorist would not have come up with that one.

Sorry Airthumbs but that is just not true - breakthroughs in science do not come from maverick individuals working at odds to the world.  On the specific point the Pioneer Anomaly was used by many to claim that GR was broken - it was not broken it was merely that many of those criticising often did not understand the questions a/o the theory.  And yes the word conspiracy was meant to imply crackpottery - and there was a lot in this area.  I am not (and was not) pointing to any members here - but there were mad and completely non-scientific speculations about Pioneer.  We knew that something was not quite right - but this is a complex real world system rather than a pure mathematical model, and before dismantling the basis of modern physics and assuming we had flawed knowledge of the Sol System it was always advisable to go through every little difference between the real-world situation and the perfect model.  When we did that we found the error - by hard work, by collecting and analysing data scrupulously, and without vague speculation.

As to your comment on disempowerment - I find that very insulting; I spend a lot of time trying to explain and unmuddle physics and maths for those who are interested.   Genuine questions are always treated with respect and other members and I have spent days explaining single problems- what I cannot abide are those people who do not wish to acknowledge that a great deal of study, maths and learning is required to understand physics.  Intuition and reading of pop-science is not enough to give one a base to challenge modern physics.  With respect, I would say that someone without an education in physics and a firm grounding of maths cannot properly theorize about physics; they are merely guessing and speculating, an imagination is vitally important but only when wed to many months of study and learning.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #11 on: 25/04/2012 16:12:53 »
Thanks for your reply to the above Imatfaal, I agree with most of what you say, however you should note that my comment on dis-empowerment was not aimed at you personally but in fact was a generalisation.  So please don't get upset.  Your input and help to the so many questions both crackpottery and not are very much appreciated. 

 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #12 on: 25/04/2012 17:46:31 »
Thanks Airthumbs
 

Offline simplified

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #13 on: 25/04/2012 18:27:02 »
There a heat was giving additional time to energy of motion.Excuse me, I have confused .
The cooled atoms of the Pioneer take more time, therefore energy of movement accepts less time. It reduces speed.
« Last Edit: 30/04/2012 04:32:47 by simplified »
 

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Offline ZHUYH

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #14 on: 26/04/2012 03:37:02 »
Shrunk
The velocity decrement of the 4 space probes such as Pioneer 10 launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is a major issue of celestial mechanics at the beginning of the new century. It raised an accurate and strong query about the Newtons law of gravitation. In addition, it proved the assumption of gravitation put forward by Kepler and the forecast of “frame dragging” raised in the general relativity, and rendered a relatively accurate criterion for the exactness of the calculating formula for vorticity force (i.e. the tangential component of universal gravitation).
http://sea3000.net/zhuyonghuan/20090507133939.php [nofollow]
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #15 on: 26/04/2012 04:51:28 »
It's a shame for the conspiracy theorists - but I love it.

clip
 - breakthroughs in science do not come from maverick individuals working at odds to the world. 

It could be argued that's what Einstein was.  He was 16 when the idea of SR took hold.  It took him until the age of 23 to refine the idea and learn the necessary math.

"Maverick" and "working at odd"s are relative terms meant to be derogatory and I am sure you would not have applied them to Einstein, at least not after he was published.


modedit to fix quotes
« Last Edit: 26/04/2012 15:24:23 by imatfaal »
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #16 on: 26/04/2012 15:28:48 »
When he published he had maths/physics degree and a phd and worked within a group of highly intellectual friends - he was revolutionary sure, possibly unique in the history of science; but he started from a position of knowing the basics and doing the sums.  I didnt know of him having first ideas at 16 - but then Einstein delighted in stories of eccentricity and oddness (eg stance on socks).
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #17 on: 27/04/2012 01:13:43 »
Michael Faraday, Worked in a bookshop in London with virtually no formal education. Changed our world....

William Herschel, Composer with no education in Astronomy, discovered Uranus.

Srinivasa Ramanujan, Self taught mathematical genius.

Mary Anning, Sea shell collector who helped prove the existence of dinosaurs, "She sells seashells by the seashore"!!

Donald G. Harden, High school teacher who cracked the Zodiac Code.

Gregor Mendel, uneducated Monk, Discovery of Genetics.

All of the above people did not have access to the amazing resources we have at our fingertips today.  This forum for example.  I am surrounded by a wealth of scientific information,that's what makes this site so cool.  Not only that but questions can be answered so quickly compared to snail mail.  My learning curve has been huge since I became a member. 

 

Offline simplified

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #18 on: 27/04/2012 03:46:07 »
When he published he had maths/physics degree and a phd and worked within a group of highly intellectual friends - he was revolutionary sure, possibly unique in the history of science; but he started from a position of knowing the basics and doing the sums.  I didnt know of him having first ideas at 16 - but then Einstein delighted in stories of eccentricity and oddness (eg stance on socks).
Friends,relatives.... Science acquires molluscs.
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #19 on: 27/04/2012 14:00:51 »
Michael Faraday, Worked in a bookshop in London with virtually no formal education. Changed our world....
Employed by Royal Institution and Humphrey Davy from very early 20s.  Self-educated - but with access to Royal Society and Royal Institution Lectures during apprenticeship years.

Quote
William Herschel, Composer with no education in Astronomy, discovered Uranus.
Observational rigorous and almost obsessional attention to detail - not sure of too many theoretical leaps
Quote
Srinivasa Ramanujan, Self taught mathematical genius.
Well self taught until he joined Hardy - and he did have a good school and college education (dropped out due to pressure of other non-maths courses).  Main reason he was self-taught was because he was streets ahead of his teachers when he was 11
Quote
Mary Anning, Sea shell collector who helped prove the existence of dinosaurs, "She sells seashells by the seashore"!!
not exactly a theorist - great contribution to science though, but I struggle to believe that if she hadn't made her contribution we would be in a markedly different position
Quote
Donald G. Harden, High school teacher who cracked the Zodiac Code.
Sure he cracked a code - with respect that matters nothing to scientific theory; and they didnt even catch the killer
Quote
Gregor Mendel, uneducated Monk, Discovery of Genetics.
Uneducated being used quite wrongly to mean having spent 7 years at university (natural science and physical science) and having two of europe's great agricultural professors as mentors at university and afterwards as a monk
Quote

All of the above people did not have access to the amazing resources we have at our fingertips today. 
  Completely agreed - but then they were all staggering geniuses (barring the code man and the fossil lady) that come along once in a generation if we are lucky.  But neither were any of the them the maverick scribbling away in isolation as popular culture likes to paint them 

Quote
This forum for example.  I am surrounded by a wealth of scientific information,that's what makes this site so cool.  Not only that but questions can be answered so quickly compared to snail mail.  My learning curve has been huge since I became a member. 
  me too. 

There is a distinct cultural meme to emphasise the role of mad-haired mad-eyed mad scientist labouring in solitude with his faithful assistant Igor etc - and to an extent there are role-models, but they are few and far between especially in modern (post-enlightenment) science.

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #20 on: 27/04/2012 18:13:34 »
Logic is logic, I think :)

We all use it, in different ways. It also depend on what you question, and how seriously you will take those questions. Einstein wondered about what he would see if he looked into a mirror while moving at light speed. And decided that he had to see himself reflected. then he wondered how that could be?
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #21 on: 27/04/2012 19:25:04 »
Unfortunately it seems that the internet is also full of disinformation and cannot be a reliable source as is evident in my above post!
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #22 on: 28/04/2012 02:52:45 »
Airthumbs. I would put it as when you're really interested in something you will learn. And that will be what you gather. If that means that you get a chance to study at some school, and /or with some really good mentors then that's that. If not you will still learn as long as you're interested. And it has nothing to do with physics, it has to do with whatever one is interested in.
==

And yes, the Internet is a varied source of information. But you learn to screen it as you use it. And think about what life would be without it :) This is as good as it get I would presume, until we all become 'biotic'.. Sooo Cyber that one :)
« Last Edit: 28/04/2012 02:57:15 by yor_on »
 

Offline simplified

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #23 on: 29/04/2012 18:53:02 »
 Some people do not understand that superfluous knowledges are superfluous things in campaign for discovery. :P
 

Offline ZHUYH

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #24 on: 02/05/2012 02:16:25 »
Why does Pioneer 10 deviate from its orbit and travel at a decreasing velocity?


Why does the moon gradually get away from the earth?


Why does Mercury conduct precession?


Why is the earth rotation slowing down?


……


The answer is given as follows:


The Vorticity Force.

 

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Re: Is the Pioneer anomaly solved now?
« Reply #24 on: 02/05/2012 02:16:25 »

 

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