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Author Topic: Help with a silly debate...  (Read 9788 times)

Offline alucard1-1

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Help with a silly debate...
« on: 26/05/2006 09:43:02 »
First off, this is my first post here, so I'd like to say hello to everyone.  :D

Now, I understand it is a silly request, but, to be honest I don't have the adequate education to properly defend my position I have in a debate I am participating in.

The debate:
A person made the statement: "Ghosts are not real, OK!?"

A long winded debate follows with the instigator basically refusing to participate by using a logistical statement that ghosts cannot be proven to exist, so they do not.

My part of the debate is that his initial statement, logically speaking, is in itself, in error.  It would be more accurate to state, 'Ghosts cannot be proven to exist at this time.' to which the instigator responds with 'using logic and the scientific method a negative cannot be proven.' And will not continue in a discussion.  

I can concede the basis of his arguement, but offered a couple of examples to make my point.  These points were:

As far as ghosts existing, or not.  The earth was once believed to be flat, and the center of the universe.  These beliefs have been proven to be erroneous.  I made the point that though ghosts cannot be proven to exist <at this point in time> it isn't possible to honestly say they will not be proven to exist at some time in the future.

A second point to his 'you cannot prove something does not exist' - I made a reaching analogy that it can be proven that plaid is not a naturally occuring skin tone.

----

My post here is basically a request to assist me in furthering this debate, accurately.  Another person in the debate had a better suggestion, making the statement it can be scientifically and mathmatically proven that the earth has no second moon.  This, I felt, was a much better arguement, but the instigator refused to respond to the statement.

Again, I realize this is all a silly debate...  I, myself, do not believe that 'ghosts' exist, simply that his statement is also inaccurate.

For a complete version of the debate, you can go here:
newbielink:http://imdb.com/title/tt0429573/board/flat/42934499 [nonactive]

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #1 on: 28/05/2006 09:02:05 »
It cannot be "mathematically & scientifically proven" that the Earth doesn't have a 2nd moon; it can only be proven within the bounds of our current knowledge.

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Offline alucard1-1

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #2 on: 28/05/2006 12:13:03 »
That's disheartening, lol.  

I would assume that it would be considered, logical or mathmatically proveable with this line of thinking:

1st - Through physical observation, only one moon can be seen from either the earth's surface, or while in orbit around the earth.
2nd - The gravity affect of the moon can be measured by the tides.  And we know that the moon stablizes the earth's axis, giving us seasons.  The fact that a second, or more, moons would also affect this leads to the conclusion that there is only one moon, and hence no second moon exists.

Can it be explained as to why this line of thought is in error?  As I said before, I don't have an adequate education to understand this I guess.  It seems to me to be rational.
 

another_someone

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #3 on: 28/05/2006 14:46:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by alucard1-1

That's disheartening, lol.  

I would assume that it would be considered, logical or mathmatically proveable with this line of thinking:

1st - Through physical observation, only one moon can be seen from either the earth's surface, or while in orbit around the earth.
2nd - The gravity affect of the moon can be measured by the tides.  And we know that the moon stablizes the earth's axis, giving us seasons.  The fact that a second, or more, moons would also affect this leads to the conclusion that there is only one moon, and hence no second moon exists.

Can it be explained as to why this line of thought is in error?  As I said before, I don't have an adequate education to understand this I guess.  It seems to me to be rational.



That we have a single moon, and no more, is consistent with all known knowledge, and we know of no way that it could be otherwise Ė but is simply saying that we know of no way it could be otherwise the same as saying that you have mathematically proven that it cannot be otherwise.



George
« Last Edit: 28/05/2006 14:47:07 by another_someone »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #4 on: 28/05/2006 17:48:06 »
Well put, George

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Offline alucard1-1

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #5 on: 28/05/2006 18:08:14 »
That we have a single moon, and no more, is consistent with all known knowledge, and we know of no way that it could be otherwise Ė but is simply saying that we know of no way it could be otherwise the same as saying that you have mathematically proven that it cannot be otherwise.

That does make sense.  But wouldn't that be akin to the old beliefs of the earth being flat, and the center of the universe?  These too were common 'knowledge' beliefs that have long since been learned to be in error.

Wouldn't all of this come down to the point that his initial statement of "ghost's do not exist" as false as well?

 

Offline neilep

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #6 on: 28/05/2006 20:53:09 »
This is akin to ' does god exist' or any other debate based upon supernatural phenomena.

Unless you witness/experience a ghost yourself under conditions you accept to be true, then the debate remains one based on speculation and belief.

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Offline alucard1-1

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #7 on: 28/05/2006 21:24:37 »
Exactly...

which was why I thought a more accurate statement from him should have been either "I don't belive ghost exist," or "ghost cannot be proven to exist at this time."  But he wouldn't accept that because my statement was a fallacy...
« Last Edit: 28/05/2006 21:25:21 by alucard1-1 »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #8 on: 28/05/2006 22:34:38 »
If the instigator is unwilling to display flexibility in the face of good reason then I suspect it's the end of the debate due to the instigators rigidity.

......actually, i think it's a good debate for the sake of debating sake...if anything it helps to set down rudimentary rules for the nature of debate !

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #9 on: 28/05/2006 23:34:07 »
Ghosts or not, some very strange things have been happening to me lately. Firstly a whole duvet has simply disappeared. We've looked everywhere and it simply is not in the house anymore.

The 2nd thing that happened was that the pepper went missing. It turned up 2 days later in a toolbox.

Then, a few days ago, I went to the shop & left my webcam recording. When I got back, the TV was on. By coincidence, I'd had the webcam pointing in that direction so I checked the video. Sure enough, about 5 mins into the recording the TV just switched on. The remote control was on the coffee table and visible in the video. The dogs hadn't accidentally knocked it or anything like that & there was no-one else in the house. And before anyone asks, the timer will only switch it off at a preset time, not switch it on.

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Offline alucard1-1

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #10 on: 28/05/2006 23:56:59 »
Neil..  thanks for that.  Thats basically what I thought as well.

Doc, that sounds very interesting...  maybe do some other research on that.. :)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #11 on: 29/05/2006 04:39:15 »
Thanks Lee, By the way I love Garlic so no biting my neck ok ?

Eth, I am most concerned by the events in your home. Have you located the duvet yet ?

was the TV in standby or was it really turned off ?...it could have come out of standby...

...it's the duvet which really gets me wondering....failing that, perhaps you have a playful-duvet-loving-TV-watching poltergeist !



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Offline time-cop

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #12 on: 30/05/2006 01:57:33 »
did you have a dream about eating a giant waffle ?

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Offline science_guy

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #13 on: 30/05/2006 19:59:06 »
...Either i'm stupider than i ever thought, or Waffles have nothing to do with ghosts.

I believe that ghosts may be real, because my teacher has had an experience with her uncle, after he died

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Offline neilep

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #14 on: 30/05/2006 20:02:10 »
One thing's for sure...waffles are real...yummy !!

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #15 on: 30/05/2006 20:24:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by science_guy
...Either i'm stupider than i ever thought, or Waffles have nothing to do with ghosts.



You mean there is no such thing as a ghost waffle? :D

quote:

I believe that ghosts may be real, because my teacher has had an experience with her uncle, after he died



Would you like to expand on this Ė what type of experience are you talking about?



George
 

Offline alucard1-1

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #16 on: 30/05/2006 23:39:34 »
I was wondering about the waffle comment myself..  ?
 

Offline Laith

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #17 on: 31/05/2006 05:43:25 »
If you can't prove that something exists doesnít mean that it doesnít, and also if you canít prove that something does not exist that doesn't mean that it does! For example if you can't prove that there isn't a bicycle on Pluto that does not mean that there is one.
As for ghosts, Iíve heard stories from 2 friends that have seen strange things they called ghosts, honestly I do trust them and I donít think they would lie to me, at least I believe that they really think they saw a ghost, not only that but their parents also say there was something at their place.
For some reason Iím the kind of person that has to see something to believe it, especially when itís something like that, so I still donít believe in ghosts if you ask me, but I wouldnít be too surprised if I ever saw one! And I really hope I do.

Doctorbeaver: anything new with you?? are strange things still happening at your place? I find this interesting please keep us updated :)
if you do see seomthing would you run away or try to talk to it? i'm guessing it would depends on how scary it looks :D


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another_someone

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #18 on: 31/05/2006 21:44:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laith
As for ghosts, Iíve heard stories from 2 friends that have seen strange things they called ghosts, honestly I do trust them and I donít think they would lie to me, at least I believe that they really think they saw a ghost, not only that but their parents also say there was something at their place.
For some reason Iím the kind of person that has to see something to believe it, especially when itís something like that, so I still donít believe in ghosts if you ask me, but I wouldnít be too surprised if I ever saw one! And I really hope I do.



The problem is that nobody can see a ghost Ė they can see an unexplained image, and until one can properly study that image, how can you possibly clasify it as a ghost, or as anything else.

I doubt very much that your two friends had a proper opportunity toi study what they thought they saw.

And, as any policeman will tell you, the most unreliable evidence you can possibly have is an eye witness, because eye witnesses don't tell you what they saw, they tell you their interpretation of what they saw.



George
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #19 on: 01/06/2006 11:50:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laith


Doctorbeaver: anything new with you?? are strange things still happening at your place? I find this interesting please keep us updated :)
if you do see seomthing would you run away or try to talk to it? i'm guessing it would depends on how scary it looks :D


Laith



I'd probably give it a can of Stella :D

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Offline JimBob

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #20 on: 01/06/2006 17:43:26 »
Do ghost really become more sociable when plied with strong lager? I knew that the British Isles were considered one of the most haunted places on earth, ghost abounding, but this is a fact new to me.



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Offline tony6789

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #21 on: 02/06/2006 15:37:45 »
r ghosts even considered real exactly??? i mean woulnd't it sorta be filed under "not sceintific" sorta like god, aleins, and like say...zombies? i mean there is no hard proof.

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Offline science_guy

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #22 on: 02/06/2006 19:53:08 »
now zombies... that would be impossible because the body is already too dead to act, and thats why it dies.  To be a zombie, you would have to regenerate your body, but then you wouldn't be considered a zombie, as they are described as decayed.

Aliens are scientific, because if we were nearby them, it is plausible, and they could be discovered, and they could discover us.

As for my teachers experience, that is an interesting story.  Her uncle was Retarded, and he had died a couple years before this experience, when her grandma was still alive.  She stayed at the house to take care of it while her grandma was gone, and she decided to sit in the garage (I forgot what it was for).  She turned on the light, sat down (across the garage) and the light turned off while she wasn't looking.  At first she shruged it off, and went back to the light switch and turned it back on, and when she got halfway back to her seat, it turned off again.  After she turned it on again, no sooner than she turned around to walk, it turned off again.  Just then she noticed the smell that she used to always smell around him, mostly cigarette smoke.

Now frightened, she called her grandmother, and she confirmed that his spirit was still there, and that she could just tell him to stop turning the light off.  As she called her uncles name and told him to stop it, the smell went away, and the light stayed on.  Her grandma also tells her that she finds clothing scattered on the floor, that was hanging on his door, and she says he used to hate it when she hung laundry on his door.

Now recently, her grandma has died, and the haunting stopped.  My teacher thinks that he was just waiting up for her to die.

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Offline jam

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #23 on: 10/06/2006 06:04:07 »
Ghosts, do they exist?  Without offending anyone and their beliefs, how can they be, is God real? or are we the only life in the universe?  Alhough there is a much more chance of the 3rd being proven the only way to believe in ghosts is to personally experience it, or take that leap of faith.

I hope for your sake, with this debate 'he' (the one of whom you are debating with) is the one to be visited by such an event.  

Good luck in your quest in understanding the possibilities of such a statement, I am yet to find my way back to belief and if there is a chance that ghost exist, than so maybe does god!

;)

Jam
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #24 on: 10/06/2006 12:11:50 »
The existences of the Universe is far more strange then the concept of ghosts. What caused the Universe to suddenly appear from nothing? We can't prove that it did and yet we are here as a result of.

We know that partials can be altered by simply observing them. How strange is that?

Ghosts, sprites, soles, and karma are no more strange then the fact that were made up of atoms that are and never have been alive but none the less agree to hang out as us for 65,000 hours or so. And then go off to be something else. If thatís not spooky what is?


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Re: Help with a silly debate...
« Reply #24 on: 10/06/2006 12:11:50 »

 

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