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Author Topic: Are Black Holes a Paradox?  (Read 7126 times)

Offline MikeS

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Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« on: 05/05/2012 08:22:28 »
The event horizon of a black hole accelerates at the speed of light.  Therefore the black hole accelerates at the speed of light( but is hidden behind the EH).

General Relativity states that mass can not accelerate up to the speed of light.  Matter being consumed by a black hole accelerates up to the speed of light at the EH.

Is this a paradox?  If not why not?
« Last Edit: 05/05/2012 09:47:03 by MikeS »


 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2012 14:40:30 »
Mike stop posting your ideas in the main forum.   
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #2 on: 05/05/2012 19:31:06 »
The event horizon of a black hole accelerates at the speed of light.
The event horizon of a black hole is stationary, i.e. it doesn't move at all. It only move relative to the observer who is in free fall. That the event horizon is stationary and the obserer in free fall is not a paradox because they move relative to one another, hence the relative in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #3 on: 06/05/2012 05:13:25 »
The event horizon of a black hole accelerates at the speed of light.
The event horizon of a black hole is stationary, i.e. it doesn't move at all. It only move relative to the observer who is in free fall. That the event horizon is stationary and the obserer in free fall is not a paradox because they move relative to one another, hence the relative in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

Pete, thanks for participating.

The event horizon is stationary in the SPACE dimension of space-time but is accelerating in the TIME dimension of space-time so it is moving in space-time.

If you regard the EH to be stationary then the observer must be in free fall and travelling at the speed of light as he enters the EH.  That's a paradox.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #4 on: 08/05/2012 19:32:53 »
The event horizon is stationary in the SPACE dimension of space-time but is accelerating in the TIME dimension of space-time so it is moving in space-time.
It is unclear to me how you came up with the notion that the space dimension of spacetime is accelerating in the time dimension. Seems to me that the event horizon of a black hole in Schwarzschild coordinates is a 3-D spatial surface. However you're speaking of a different coordinate system. Please provide a derivation of your assertion or if I'm wrong please a derivation of what I did wrong. After that it might take a month or so to (1) finish up my study of Dark Matter and (2) study your claims in detail. It's been a extremely long time since I studied black hole so be complete I'll have to take time to study the spacetime of black holes closely.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2012 19:56:51 by Pmb »
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #5 on: 09/05/2012 06:05:34 »
The event horizon is stationary in the SPACE dimension of space-time but is accelerating in the TIME dimension of space-time so it is moving in space-time.
It is unclear to me how you came up with the notion that the space dimension of spacetime is accelerating in the time dimension. Seems to me that the event horizon of a black hole in Schwarzschild coordinates is a 3-D spatial surface. However you're speaking of a different coordinate system. Please provide a derivation of your assertion or if I'm wrong please a derivation of what I did wrong. After that it might take a month or so to (1) finish up my study of Dark Matter and (2) study your claims in detail. It's been a extremely long time since I studied black hole so be complete I'll have to take time to study the spacetime of black holes closely.

Pete
Much as I would love to provide you with a derivation, Math is not my strong subject.

The reasoning behind the idea is simple.  Relativity tells us that gravity is  acceleration. 

The surface of the Earth constantly accelerates at 1g.  This is confirmed by placing an accelerometer anywhere on the Earths surface at sea level. 

All of the Earths surface accelerates but it does that without the Earth getting any larger.  That is possible as the acceleration is in the TIME dimension of space-time and not the SPACE dimension of space-time.  Time is most dilated at the Earths surface and less so further from the surface.  As the Earth travels through space-time so it is accelerating.  It is continually moving from where time is at maximum dilation to where time is less dilated.  As the Earth travels through space-time so time contracts.  (The Earth [traveling at constant velocity according to a distant observer] locally, covers more distance per second as the next second is shorter.)  That is acceleration.

A black hole is an extreme demonstration of gravity and the effect of an object accelerating in the TIME dimension of space-time.  The acceleration of the EH is so great that nothing can escape it.  The diameter of the EH only grows in proportion to what it consumes not in consequence of the acceleration.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #6 on: 20/05/2012 07:59:40 »
imatfaal

What did I say in the original post that you believe to be non mainstream?
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #7 on: 21/05/2012 10:23:39 »
Event horizons are more or less stationary
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #8 on: 21/05/2012 19:24:10 »
Event horizons are more or less stationary

Stationary in space or in time?
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #9 on: 23/05/2012 12:21:19 »
Milke - Here is an opportunity to learn everything about black holes that you wanted to. Please see - http://www.eftaylor.com/comments/
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #10 on: 25/05/2012 13:18:36 »
Pete,

Thanks for the link, there's a lot of reading there but I don't think it answered my original question.  There is much that I don't think it addresses, for example.  If we assume that matter continues to accelerate toward the singularity after crossing the event horizon then in some sense it must be going backward in time.  The book does not seem to take that into account.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #11 on: 25/05/2012 13:42:08 »
Event horizons are more or less stationary

When talking about space-time, stationary has little meaning.
As time approaches infinite dilation as it approaches the EH then distance approaches infinite contraction.  Space 'pours' into the EH like a speed of light waterfall.  Or, depending upon how you wish to look at it, the EH accelerates at the speed of light.  Either way that's not "more or less stationary".
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #12 on: 29/05/2012 16:10:22 »
Pete is perfectly correct Mike. What I think you do here, not being sure btw, is that you decided on one way at looking at the universe. And now you test that view?

But Pete wants the 'goods', the hard math defining your proposal. As you say you don't have that, but then you and Pete will collide. Maybe you could ask him if he can see any way to reconcile his view, and mine I'm afraid, with how you suggest?

It would be a interesting exercise for me. And I don't mind people searching for new interpretations, although they must fit the experiments firstly, the theory, or theories, we have secondly. I like taking my brain for a ride.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #13 on: 30/05/2012 10:20:26 »
I will take a stab on it Mike. Seems as if you want to define something as 'moving in time' although stationary in a positional space you are assuming some definitions. The first one is that the arrow exist as a 'force/stream' that always transports us forward. Doing so there are no stationary positions in space, so even when we define something as unmoving it will still move inside that arrow. It's not that different from a lot of other ideas that I've seen regarding the way SpaceTime seems to be interconnected.

but there is a difference, as I see it, in how you think of it and Einstein did. Einstein assumed a continuum where all aspects of SpaceTime in some mysterious fashion was interweaved. I don't think he saw it as 'split able', instead he saw SpaceTime as a expression that was whole in itself, a four dimensional continuum.

As for 'the arrow' accelerating I'm more confused. When it comes to the arrow having a constant defining it, then we must use a 'clock' to do so, and as 'c' is the clock of choice here, splitting 'c' into even chunks we can define it as such- But that is just the best 'clock' both you and me can come up with. It does not state what a arrow comes from, as in a origin, neither does it tell us anything more than this seems the preferred way of describing a arrow inside SpaceTime. As some first ideas this is, I'm still feeling rather slow from yesterdays excursions :)
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #14 on: 30/05/2012 10:28:02 »
If you use 'c' defining the arrow then it never 'accelerates' for you. And as it your measurements that decides any proportionality in a comparison between frames of reference the best you can state is that 'the arrow' seems to be different when looking at some other frame of reference. But going there it won't be.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #15 on: 30/05/2012 10:35:32 »
So in a way Einsteins view must be the right one, it's a unsplittable four dimensional continuum that you carry with you, expressed through measurements defined by your local 'clock' and your local 'ruler'. And you can't 'move' outside this definition inside SpaceTime.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #16 on: 30/05/2012 11:32:25 »
yor_on

I am not trying to propose anything new, only clarify and understand the Universe in general and both gravity and time in particular.

Most people are happy to accept what Einstein said about gravity being acceleration.  They accept that without understanding it, or being able to explain in what way the Earth or black hole or anything with mass accelerates whilst seeming to remain possibly stationary. 

An accelerometer placed anywhere on the Earths surface at sea level will register about 1g.  Why?  You have to be able to understand what acceleration is and what gravity is and what time is to be able to answer that question.

Anything trapped in the event horizon of a black hole can never escape.  It can never escape because the EH is accelerating at the speed of light and nothing can exceed that.
« Last Edit: 30/05/2012 12:21:51 by MikeS »
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #17 on: 30/05/2012 11:57:57 »
I will take a stab on it Mike. Seems as if you want to define something as 'moving in time' although stationary in a positional space you are assuming some definitions. The first one is that the arrow exist as a 'force/stream' that always transports us forward. Doing so there are no stationary positions in space, so even when we define something as unmoving it will still move inside that arrow. It's not that different from a lot of other ideas that I've seen regarding the way SpaceTime seems to be interconnected.

but there is a difference, as I see it, in how you think of it and Einstein did. Einstein assumed a continuum where all aspects of SpaceTime in some mysterious fashion was interweaved. I don't think he saw it as 'split able', instead he saw SpaceTime as a expression that was whole in itself, a four dimensional continuum.

As for 'the arrow' accelerating I'm more confused. When it comes to the arrow having a constant defining it, then we must use a 'clock' to do so, and as 'c' is the clock of choice here, splitting 'c' into even chunks we can define it as such- But that is just the best 'clock' both you and me can come up with. It does not state what a arrow comes from, as in a origin, neither does it tell us anything more than this seems the preferred way of describing a arrow inside SpaceTime. As some first ideas this is, I'm still feeling rather slow from yesterdays excursions :)


True

True, I am just trying to understand/interpret what Einstein meant.

Whether you think of space-time as a four dimensional continuum or three dimensions of space and one of time, I don't think it makes that much difference but it is easier to think of time as being separate.

The arrow is always entropy and possibly the main example of that is gravity.  We know that the passage of time can vary locally.  Light approaching the Earth is blue shifted as it gets deeper within the Earths gravitational field.  The light has accelerated.  The light has accelerated because each subsequent second is longer the closer the light gets to the Earth.  More cycles arrive per second in a longer second than in a shorter second.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #18 on: 30/05/2012 12:02:13 »
If you use 'c' defining the arrow then it never 'accelerates' for you. And as it your measurements that decides any proportionality in a comparison between frames of reference the best you can state is that 'the arrow' seems to be different when looking at some other frame of reference. But going there it won't be.

Yes, it depends upon your frame of reference.  The point is there is a frame of reference from which you can define mass as accelerating.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #19 on: 30/05/2012 12:20:30 »
So in a way Einsteins view must be the right one, it's a unsplittable four dimensional continuum that you carry with you, expressed through measurements defined by your local 'clock' and your local 'ruler'. And you can't 'move' outside this definition inside SpaceTime.

I agree
Never the less there exist other frames of reference that when compared lead to different conclusions.  Surely, that's the essence of why it's called Relativity.

We live in a non-inertial reference frame.
« Last Edit: 30/05/2012 13:23:27 by MikeS »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #20 on: 30/05/2012 21:00:57 »
I think we had that discussion before?

To assume that the event horizon is equivalent to 'c' you also need to to define what happens with in-falling mass. In Einsteins universe that mass will pass the event horizon, as observed from its own frame of reference, although there is a lot more to that as 'apparent horizons',  gravitational effects etc. But it will pass, and it shouldn't exist at all at that border, if the equivalence to 'c' was at the Event horizon. I too see a equivalence Mike, but I would place it at the singularities center if so. And that place must, if this is correct, be a place where everything we know (physics etc) breaks down.

As for living in a non inertial frame I'm not sure how you mean. A inertial frame is any uniformly moving frame as I think of it. That we call it 'inertial' although those frames can be measured to have different uniform motion, relative Earths for example, state a equivalence between them that makes uniform motion very strange to me, or motion in general. Then we have accelerations that gives us the equivalence to a gravity. You could assume that it is a question of inertia expressed in the matters particles adapting new relations relative each other, time dilated as well as Lorentz contracted though. I'm wondering about that as we write? If that was so, then you might assume that uniform motion, wherein no 'gravity' is existent if ignoring matter itself, is the natural state of the universe. But matter has the ability to distort the 'space' which might be seen as a consequence from the way it 'binds' energy, if we assume energy to be some universal coin of measure.

As long as you don't move you are in what I would call a inertial frame, loosely speaking that is. But as we constantly move you might want to define it as 'non-inertial' any way :) It's all a question of your definitions there, but they have to be very strict if you want people to see how you think.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #21 on: 30/05/2012 21:19:00 »
As the arrow being entropy?
I got to admit that I'm not sure what entropy stands for any more. Some want to define the arrow as 'entropy' as if the arrow was something living, constantly 'growing'. I prefer to avoid that word myself, because a lot of definitions of what entropy is seems to exist. It's a little like the idea of 'information' which I, although simpler to understand, also finds hard to melt. If we would be 'information' what about writing a equation on a ice cube? Where did it go, the equation I mean? And maybe that can be used for questioning entropy too?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #22 on: 30/05/2012 21:27:13 »
My own view on it Mike is related to 'energy'. Even though we can't hold a pound of 'energy' in our hands it exist as a conceptual measure of something changing. And in a acceleration you spend 'energy', in a uniform motion you don't.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #23 on: 01/06/2012 14:13:41 »
I think we had that discussion before?

To assume that the event horizon is equivalent to 'c' you also need to to define what happens with in-falling mass. In Einsteins universe that mass will pass the event horizon, as observed from its own frame of reference, although there is a lot more to that as 'apparent horizons',  gravitational effects etc. But it will pass, and it shouldn't exist at all at that border, if the equivalence to 'c' was at the Event horizon. I too see a equivalence Mike, but I would place it at the singularities center if so. And that place must, if this is correct, be a place where everything we know (physics etc) breaks down.

As for living in a non inertial frame I'm not sure how you mean. A inertial frame is any uniformly moving frame as I think of it. That we call it 'inertial' although those frames can be measured to have different uniform motion, relative Earths for example, state a equivalence between them that makes uniform motion very strange to me, or motion in general. Then we have accelerations that gives us the equivalence to a gravity. You could assume that it is a question of inertia expressed in the matters particles adapting new relations relative each other, time dilated as well as Lorentz contracted though. I'm wondering about that as we write? If that was so, then you might assume that uniform motion, wherein no 'gravity' is existent if ignoring matter itself, is the natural state of the universe. But matter has the ability to distort the 'space' which might be seen as a consequence from the way it 'binds' energy, if we assume energy to be some universal coin of measure.

As long as you don't move you are in what I would call a inertial frame, loosely speaking that is. But as we constantly move you might want to define it as 'non-inertial' any way :) It's all a question of your definitions there, but they have to be very strict if you want people to see how you think.

Probably.

As you approach the EH time dilates and distance contracts as viewed by a distant observer.  If distance contracts then something must be accelerating, either the object approaching the EH or the EH itself.

By non-inertial I mean an accelerating frame of reference.
 

Offline MikeS

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #24 on: 01/06/2012 14:22:25 »
As the arrow being entropy?
I got to admit that I'm not sure what entropy stands for any more. Some want to define the arrow as 'entropy' as if the arrow was something living, constantly 'growing'. I prefer to avoid that word myself, because a lot of definitions of what entropy is seems to exist. It's a little like the idea of 'information' which I, although simpler to understand, also finds hard to melt. If we would be 'information' what about writing a equation on a ice cube? Where did it go, the equation I mean? And maybe that can be used for questioning entropy too?

As I see it, the BB wound the Universe up.  Entropy is the spring unwinding and loosing useful energy.  Entropy is the Universes route to its 'most' stable state.  That state would ideally be zero useful energy.  I don't really understand what it is that you are questioning about entropy?
 

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Re: Are Black Holes a Paradox?
« Reply #24 on: 01/06/2012 14:22:25 »

 

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