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Author Topic: Could the universe be like a seed that will grow into a final product?  (Read 2441 times)

Offline acecharly

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Is there a predetermined end game to our universe such as a say an apple seed one day turning into an apple tree only to throw out new seeds or as in this analogy new universes. With this in mind that seed has DNA, which it must be somehow possible to work out how it will end up being that tree. So does our universe have some kind of DNA from which we could work out how it will end up?

Any thoughts

Cheers Ace


 

Offline yor_on

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Heh :)

You tell me. Nice idea though.
You have the cosmic finger prints from the Big Bang of course. But I think it's incorrect to assume that it is a simple linear causality chain although that would be really nice if it was. Check up on Feigenbaum constants.
 

Offline yotdlibra

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Hiya,

First, I just found this forum when on a google search. I run a company out of my home while being a stay at home dad to a two and a three year old. While their unobstructed view of the physical world has led me to the occasional epiphany, my opportunities to engage in intellectual debate/conversation are relatively limited. : )  I am looking forward to perusing the forums.

I apologize in advance for the ensuing diatribe. This is a subject that I have been fascinated with for a while. 

Anyhoo, regarding your post: This is actually a question that has plagued me since studying the big bang theory in high school. Not necessarily the exact context of your post but the spirit of it. That of course being, the universe expansion theory.

I was considering starting a discussion on this but I saw your post and thought that it might be a good place to start. : )

My first problem lies within the theory that a "big bang" created our universe. Now maybe that seems like an ignorant statement, however hear me out. For there to have been a "big bang" there had to be elements present to create this reaction. Would those elements not have existed in a "universe"? I will not contest that there may have been elements WITHIN the universe that ultimately caused a "bang" that was "big" and that said "bang" shaped what we, from this vantage point, can observe.

That being said these "big bangs" could be happening on a regular basis throughout the universe. In fact, some of the celestial events that we observe (black holes etc.) could be stages in the big bang process. To assume that the universe is limited to only what we can identify and observe seems, to me, to be quite arrogant.

I personally feel that the answer to every question regarding the size and shape of the universe is actually much more simple that most think. That answer being,.....infinite.

The concept of beginning and end, borders and shape, are based on our knowledge and experiences within the environment we live. Starting of course with life. We are born....we die. Beginning and end, right? Not really, there a million theories and faiths that talk about what happens to the collection of energy that is our consciousness. Very few of which state that this energy simply ceases to exist. The physical matter that is our bodies, decomposes and transforms. So while we certainly cannot know for sure what happens to the cluster of energy that is the spiritual "us", we know for sure that the physical matter that is us is essentially infinite.

Now, how does that relate to our understanding of the size, shape and state of the universe? Well, just as we inaccurately assume that there is a beginning and end to "us" we are making assumptions about the aforementioned state of the universe. I.E. "It had a beginning" "It will have an end" "It is expanding" "It is contracting" "It has a shape" "It has a border" etc..

In order for something to have a beginning something has to happen to create it. I made a chocolate cake for my kids birthday. Long before it was a chocolate cake it was a collection of protein and enzymes inside of a chicken, and a bunch of beans growing on a tree, and a cane of sugar in a field, and a seed of wheat, and inevitably some lab created stuff that I cannot pronounce. I created a cake.

In order for something to have an end, it would have to cease to exist. And as we know, matter only transforms, and energy only disperses. And in the event that we break matter down to it's smallest integer (the atom) and try to break it down further.....whoa! A disproportional dispersion of energy that can destroy civilizations and power the world.

So, forgive my diatribe, but what exactly does all of this have to do with your original question? 

Could the universe be like a seed that will grow into a final product?  

By my estimation, no. It is fundamentally impossible for there to be a "final" anything. The tree is far from the final product of an apple seed. Everything within the physical and non physical exists within an infinite cycle. Besides that, for the universe to be expanding and growing it would need to have a border and shape. The universe having a shape is essentially a paradox. The shape of an object is directly related to it's outside environment. We know a sphere is a sphere based on the physical space in which it resides. Therefore, in order for there to be a physical border to the universe there needs to be space beyond that border. And so on, and so forth. So, the only conclusive answer is that the universe is absolutely infinite and the physical elements of said universe are simply adrift with their direction and relationships being only related to the reactions and circumstances that effected them.

Just my two cents. : )
 

Offline CliffordK

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I doubt one would ever find some kind of a DNA blueprint for the Galaxy or Universe.

However, undoubtedly, the Universe will continue to evolve and age through physical means.
And, Life will slowly spread across the galaxy, and change the galaxy, whether or not it originates from Earth, or from multiple locations across the galaxy. 

Likewise, other parts of the universe may be moulded by alien life.  Assuming humanity eventually leaves our own solar system, is unlikely that life originating on Earth will ever travel beyond the confines of our own galaxy.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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The universe has a clear and measurable past (this is currently called "the big bang")  It also has a future defined by the laws of thermodynamics.  These laws a fundamental to any universe and would apply in any universe even one with very different physical laws to ours.   

The big bang started hot, uniform, dense and small.  The universe is steadily becoming cold and messy and very large until it is so spread out that there is in effect nothing left.

It is true that we see small parts of the universe collapsing violently to become what we call black holes that would last for a vast time in our cold universe before they in effect evaporated to nothing. 

To all intents and purposes black holes can be considered as child universes of ours because they contain material from our universe that is for ever cut off from our universe and we can never see or measure this because no information of any complex structures inside can ever escape.

Accepted theory shows clearly that inside every black hole there can easily be more than enough energy to create a universe as large and complex as ours however small the mass that initially created it.  It is also clear that in the collapse towards what is called a "singularity" the material would become very hot, uniform, dense and small in many ways similar to the origin of our universe.  To go any further would take us beyond currently accepted theories.

The physical processes that will happen inside a collapsing black hole particularly when these are viewed from the position of the material involved in this collapse can be modelled.  Considerable information exists that will allow these processes to be modelled to a limit.  Very few people that I can find are working on this collapse process because it is known that this limit exists and will always exist because it is beyond the limits of human experimentation. 

I personally feel that not studying this collapse process inside a black hole is a big mistake because that is the most likely area where good directions towards new physics could be found.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2012 12:41:09 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline yor_on

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You hit the head on the nail there SoulSurfer.  It's a very strange thing to me that compressing something, no matter its original mass, seems to produce a 'infinity' making about anything possible, at least theoretically? That one hurts my head terribly. Although if this 'new universe' is between a event horizon and a BH center the original mass must have a importance, but if I assume that the Black Hole becomes some sort of worm hole then the other end should be a white hole and? If so, the original mass can't be that important, or??
 

Offline MikeS

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Is there a predetermined end game to our universe such as a say an apple seed one day turning into an apple tree only to throw out new seeds or as in this analogy new universes. With this in mind that seed has DNA, which it must be somehow possible to work out how it will end up being that tree. So does our universe have some kind of DNA from which we could work out how it will end up?

Any thoughts

Cheers Ace

It is certainly evolving and will, like all things eventually die.

I think so.  The universes DNA is the Laws of Nature, The Laws of Physics, the structure of atoms and the various forces.  Those things dictate how to build this universe.  If we perfectly understood those things and could measure accurately all we need to measure then in theory I see no reason why we could not predict how the Universe will end.  But it's not life Jim, not as we know it.

added 5th June
The Universe produced us, so I guess it must in some sense have included the instructions for that or the possibility but those instructions are much broader and less restrictive than DNA.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2012 09:26:12 by MikeS »
 

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