# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Perpetual motion Device...  (Read 45203 times)

#### realmswalker

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##### Perpetual motion Device...
« on: 06/06/2006 03:35:55 »
So...
I think i have devised a perpetual motion device.
It uses a thing called ferrofluid, a liquid attracted to magnetic fields. A tube is filled with ferrofluid, and held there by permanent magnets. Then a ball less dense than the ferro fluid is placed a tthe bottum, it shoots to the top, because of boyancy. Once it reaches the top, it goes down another tube, from this fall it gains sufficient velocity to break through back into the ferrofluid, restarting the process.

The gray stuff is the ferrofluid, the black squares are magnets holding it in place. Of course it would be different proportions and sizes and such...but it gives you the general idea.
I donno why this wouldnt work...aside from that pesky first law of thermodynamics...

#### science_guy

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #1 on: 06/06/2006 19:18:46 »
What would the use for this kind of device be?  Maybe if you did it with liquids and turbines, you could generate electricity.  As for the design you have, i dont see how it wouldn't work.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

#### realmswalker

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #2 on: 07/06/2006 00:00:54 »
what use would there be for a perpetual motion device?
The ball could perhaps hit a paddle and turn a turbine while it was falling downwards.
heh
How would you say this wouldnt work? because by i cant figure out a reason why this wouldnt work...

#### science_guy

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #3 on: 07/06/2006 09:01:24 »
read carefully.  I never said it wouldn't work.  I said i cant see how it wouldn't work.  Good idea, though, you should patent it.

Oh! I see one problem:  Can you make it go around the tube fast enough to generate a significant amount of electricity?

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

#### Roy P

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• Posts: 103
##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #4 on: 07/06/2006 11:51:28 »
Surely the problem here is the weight of the ball -- having to break through, what would have to be, a pretty strong valve holding back the ferrofluid?

__________________________________________________________
Roy P

#### Roy P

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #5 on: 07/06/2006 13:19:42 »
Plus, of course, the added problem of the drop in volume of the liquid as a ball is released. Actually there are lots of problems. The surface of the ferrofluid would have to be above the level of the tube that the ball is ejected into. You've cheated in your diagram; the ball exiting the fluid is magically rising above the level of ferrofluid.

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Roy P

#### science_guy

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #6 on: 07/06/2006 18:07:31 »
hmmm...

Thats a good point, Roy.  You would either have to have a dense ball to break into the ferrofluid at the bottom, making it not leave at the top, or have a less dense ball, so the force of the density differences would launce the ball up past the surface, but then it might not break through at the bottom.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

#### realmswalker

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 205
##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #7 on: 07/06/2006 21:56:44 »
Roy, the ball would be launched slightly upward upon exiting the ferrofluid (which has a consistency of about that of oil).
Like science_guy said, the main problem i could see would be finding somthing able to pop out of the top enough to get over the hump, but dense enough to break back into the ferrofluid, im not sure what the surface tension would be like, but i might do some tests and figure it out when i get som excess cash (ferrofluid is  a tad expensive, about 25\$ for 50 ml).
Im thinking perhaps a rubber bouncy ball would work, assuming it floats in oil(i dont know if it does).
Ill do some tests, and see if it works!

#### realmswalker

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• Posts: 205
##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #8 on: 07/06/2006 21:58:53 »
Oh and to science guys second post, about making it go around fast enough to generate signifigant electricity:
Well assuming this did work, then you could easily have tons of them all turning the same turbine, so the interval between each ball turning a fan thing would be small enough that it would work, probably

#### ukmicky

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #9 on: 07/06/2006 22:58:33 »
Your device uses Magnets and magnets contain stored energy ,the potental energy stored in the magnets is converted into kinetic energy in the fluid and will have to be replenished at some stage by replacing the magnets, therefore your device isn't a Perpetual motion Device...  if you use permanant magnets the viscosity of the ferrofluid would permanantly increase as the magnetic field is applied so the ball would probably not be able to penetrate it or float to the surface

Secondly your fluid levels in the diagram are not where they would naturally be as some would cling to the ball as it went over the top lowering the level and raising the height that the ball will have to jump.

Thirdly if the ball could jump and pop out of the fluid at the top , its going to go straight up and not straight up and a little bit over to the left.

And lastly you cant get free energy.

Michael
« Last Edit: 08/06/2006 00:22:51 by ukmicky »

#### DoctorBeaver

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #10 on: 08/06/2006 00:20:33 »
That Micky is good, isn't he!

Brand new forum at
http://beaverlandforum.y4a.net
More than just science

#### ukmicky

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #11 on: 08/06/2006 00:23:22 »
NO

Michael

#### another_someone

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #12 on: 08/06/2006 00:29:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
And lastly the viscosity of the ferrofluid vastly increases as an magnetic field is applied so the ball would probably not be able to penetrate it or float to the surface.

The bigger problem is that as the ball penetrates the ferrofluid, it would have to displace some fluid – where does that fluid go, and whet energy is used to displace it?

It cannot display the fluid outward, since to do so it would risk losing the fluid from the column altogether, thus  the assumption must be the displacement must be upward (i.e. the ball would have to shift the whole column of ferrofluid up by enough to give it room to enter the column).  Although it will recover this energy (excluding anything lost to friction, viscosity, etc.) as it moves up the column, but in doing so, the journey up the column can only, at very best, recover energy it has had to use in entering the column; and thus, it is not gaining any new energy.

George

#### realmswalker

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #13 on: 08/06/2006 02:45:36 »
so why wouldnt this work then, what would happen, would it just slow down and stop?

#### science_guy

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #14 on: 08/06/2006 18:19:05 »
maybe if you did a normal fluid, without magnets, and the balls are passing through some sort of a funnel that will let the ball through one way, but will not let the water out.  Any water spilled when the ball goes through can be collected in a drain and brought back to the top somehow.  That requires no magnetism, and the only energy used to pump the spilled water could be generated by the wheel istelf, and excess energy will be used in whatever you are powering.

And for the popping up, it could be easily solved by putting a board or plate at the top that will control the bounce with an angle.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)

#### another_someone

• Guest
##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #15 on: 08/06/2006 18:45:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by science_guy

maybe if you did a normal fluid, without magnets, and the balls are passing through some sort of a funnel that will let the ball through one way, but will not let the water out.  Any water spilled when the ball goes through can be collected in a drain and brought back to the top somehow.  That requires no magnetism, and the only energy used to pump the spilled water could be generated by the wheel istelf, and excess energy will be used in whatever you are powering.

The problem of the displacement of fluid when the ball is inserted made no assumption about the influence of the magnetism itself, it was only about the energy required to insert the ball into the column of water (and assumed the magnetism was merely having the effect of a spring loaded valve).

As you say, you would use energy to pump the spillage back up to the top, but the assumption that you would have any excess energy with which to operate the pump I doubt will stand up to any rigorous analysis, although I don't myself have all the skills with which to do that analysis.

Assuming the device was totally 100% efficient, then I suspect you could maintain perpetual motion, but with an absolute energy balance, no excess and no loss.  In reality, the device will be subject to many sources of frictional loss which will rapidly dissipate the energy.

quote:

And for the popping up, it could be easily solved by putting a board or plate at the top that will control the bounce with an angle.

If you could generate enough inertia to be able to do that, then yes you could deflect the upward thrust to a sideways thrust (in exactly the same way that you are deflecting the downwards trajectory of the balls into a lateral movement in order to insert the balls back into the column).  I would not suggest a board, since that is likely to create more frictional losses, but if the balls themselves were magnetised, then you could use a magnetic field to deflect them.

George

#### ukmicky

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #16 on: 09/06/2006 00:14:36 »
quote:
And for the popping up, it could be easily solved by putting a board or plate at the top that will control the bounce with an angle.

Just by doing that one thing will make the mechanism less than 100 hundred percent efficient and therefore unworkable as the act of the ball hitting something as it pops out of the fluid will generate heat through friction which will then be lost from the system to the outside environment. Meaning the machine then has to generate energy from nothing and be say 101 percent efficient in order to make up the loses. It can't work

Michael
« Last Edit: 09/06/2006 00:16:13 by ukmicky »

#### Precursor

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #17 on: 20/06/2006 21:42:13 »
Someone on another forum thought of something similar.

Take a large container of light oil.  At the top rim and bottom edge mount a wheel.  Take multiple steel balls containing nitrogen at normal atmospheric pressure and connect them using a strong rubber hose that also engulfs the steel buoys kinda like a sausage.  So you want it so the buoys enter the container from an opening at the bottom of the container and runs up through the oil to the top wheel then back down on the outside of the container to the bottom wheel.  You then have an inverted rubber cone with the wide end creating a seal with the bottom of the container and the point of the cone pointing up with an opening equal to that of the diameter of the hose connecting the buoys.  The weight of the oil will try to invert the cone but will be unable to.  The cone will be stretchy enough to allow the buoys to pass through while maintaining a seal with the engulfing hose.  The buoys will have buoyancy while on the inside of the container (creating lift) but will have weight and get pulled down by gravity on the outside of the container.  There will be resistance for the buoys to enter through this opening however this can be overcame by having a sufficiant number of buoys submerged at one time.  The combined force of buoyancy acting on each buoy can add up to overcome this resistance.  Gravity acting on them on the way down should be efficiant enough to overcome the friction in the bearing in each wheel.

#### ukmicky

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #18 on: 20/06/2006 21:56:38 »
Draw it and we will tell you why it wont work

Michael

#### realmswalker

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #19 on: 20/06/2006 22:35:29 »

#### Precursor

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 34
##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #20 on: 20/06/2006 23:36:35 »
As I said it's not my design so I'll give ya the link they gave in the other forum.

http://www.geocities.com/drypress/Inventions_PerpetualMotionMachine.html [nofollow]

I have my own ideas that I discussed briefly (I use that term loosely) on the other forum.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=6426&st=15 [nofollow]

#### Precursor

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #21 on: 21/06/2006 00:36:19 »

Just thought I would help out your design there.  If one ball isn't heavy enough (even with the momentum) than more than one might work.  The weight of multiple balls on top my push the bottom one down into the fluid where buoyancy would take over.  The trick would be to find a ball that will be buoyant enough to contact the deflector and be sent forward but at the same time heavy enough that one, two or even three would provide enough force to penetrate the surface at the bottom.  If one or two makes it happen than put three in the system.  If three or four makes it work than put five.  If the ball(s) had a weak magnetism to them than you could use the magnet to aid in pulling the ball into the fluid so that buoyancy can take over.

#### NCoppedge

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #22 on: 21/06/2006 01:19:45 »
I'd like to confirm that I am in fact the originator, or at least the only originator I know, of the cycling buoys continuous motion concept.

--Nathan Coppedge

#### NCoppedge

• First timers
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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #23 on: 21/06/2006 01:28:36 »
I have submitted an updated design, which is not posted on my website, to the Big Idea Group, with the hopes of receiving marketing and patenting assistance.

The updated design, along with the related data and equations, have been notarized, along with the date of notarization, with the hope of dissuading any would-be thieves.

Although I am new to the patenting process, I hope that any innovators will also notarize their work, and refrain from posting any designs they feel represent a finished and effective product.

Respectfully and with regards,

Nathan L. Coppedge, inventor

#### Precursor

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##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #24 on: 21/06/2006 01:59:51 »
Hey there.  Yeah it's a great design that you got.  So what did you go with to allow the buoys in but keep the water from coming out?

Oh and as for what I am designing, I challenge anyone to pick it up, do some work and get it invented before me.  Just don't sell the patent if it works.  Make your fortune the hard way, through marketing of the product regardless of how much some company offers for it.  My goal is to see these oil companies burn (pardon the pun).

Too long have they controlled the market.  They create a world dependant on them then fill their pockets while the rest of us starve.  The so called war on terrorism is just a front for what the war is really about.  Oil.  Remember at the end of the gulf war multiple wells were set ablaze?  That's because Sadam couldn't get his hand on the wells after getting his butt whooped by the americans so he set them on fire.

I want these giants to fall hard.

[:(!]

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Perpetual motion Device...
« Reply #24 on: 21/06/2006 01:59:51 »