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Author Topic: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry  (Read 8148 times)

Offline William McCormick

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Could you use marble, at a slightly higher voltage? That is what our silver re-claimer used to use as an electrode to collect the silver. Easy to get the silver off of them too.

The stainless steel tank is one electrode, the marble is the other.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick


 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #1 on: 17/08/2012 18:41:24 »
Could you use marble, at a slightly higher voltage? That is what our silver re-claimer used to use as an electrode to collect the silver. Easy to get the silver off of them too.

The stainless steel tank is one electrode, the marble is the other.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick

Bollocks. Marble doesn't conduct electricity.
You might want to consider, before you next post something, whether or not I'm going to point out (once again) that you are talking bollocks.
At some stage people will come to the conclusion that you are trolling.
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #2 on: 18/08/2012 03:40:25 »
My friend everything conducts electricity. You live on a sphere of electricity. That is 90 percent space.


Do you really believe that Tesla wrote all he wrote, did all he did, and no one stopped him?

You could not stop him, he was right. You could ignore him, lie about him, wish he was dead, but he was totally accurate. Look at some of the tales about Tesla, that he shook the city with a weight of less then ten pounds. The Myth Busters laughed and laughed at his work. Said it couldn't be done. They tried incorrect experiments that did not duplicate Tesla's experiments. And did actually declare Tesla's work ridiculous. They tried altering their experiment by just a little bit, and then realized that Tesla was exactly right. What you have read about him and heard about him is true.

Do you think they want slaves and peasants with that kind of knowledge.

Dielectrics conduct electricity the fastest of all, but at reduced current. A light switch that uses two points or a single contact, to turn on and off your lights, is nothing but a condenser, an air capacitor. That conducts electricity so fast, that it is able to charge up and stop the flow of one half cycle of AC, in about 1/120th of a second or 1/100th of a second, and then discharge the capacitor and charge it with the opposite polarity, charge in 1/60th of a second or 1/50th of a second in most of America.

But the air is certainly always conducting electricity.







http://www.rockwelder.com/electricity/Capacitor/Capacitors.html





                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #3 on: 19/08/2012 01:57:59 »
Dielectrics conduct electricity the fastest of all, but at reduced current.
                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick

So you have chosen to carry on talking bollocks then.


I hope you have some scientific evidence to back that up. There is nothing that I know of that states otherwise. There is no substance on earth that can stop electricity, without first conducting some amperage, and then being charged with a polarity, on one surface of the dielectric, while the other surface acts as a drain or ground. Otherwise you will be electrified by the dielectric. One surface of your dielectric will be at one voltage while the other surface will be at another.

Look at a kite string, in a lightning storm, there is a lot of ohms stopping the lightning, yet the lightning voltage still travels down the string. In order to measure ohms even ohms into the thousands of millions of ohms, you have to conduct electricity.

The Green Berets used to use silver wire, the slowest of all conductors on earth, to blow up objects using a small high voltage, generator. The silver wire, unlike copper or aluminum, does not get a little voltage applied to it and raise in voltage, and then start to slow or repel the flow of electricity through the wire.  Or reduce the current, like an insulator does, or in this case like copper and aluminum would. Because silver is the slowest of all conductors to raise in voltage. The silver wire just keeps calling for more current and voltage.

The silver wire, just maintains a heavy current draw, until the circuit is fully equalized. The reason is simple, copper makes a better insulator then silver, aluminum makes a better insulator then copper. Because copper and aluminum create more ohms then silver. That is the definition of a better insulator or a worse conductor.

When you see zero ohms on an electrical meter, it does not mean that something out there like silver cannot create even less ohms. It is done that way because most of our stuff is made of copper, the wire, the PC boards you name it.  So unity in this case is zero ohms for copper of a short length. Silver would be minus or negative ohms. 

Air is a much better insulator then rubber, or the best plastics for insulating. Yet it conducts electricity so fast, raises in voltage so quickly, that it can actually stop electricity, by reaching input voltage so quickly at the input terminal. That, it can stop the flow from a point that is abundant with particles of electricity, before that point can conduct high amperage through the air. The other point, or terminal, that is not abundant with particles of electricity, maintains its voltage, with very little amperage applied. Thanks to air being so quick to match the surface voltage of less powerful insulators.

It requires voltage to stop voltage, nothing else can do it. The gap between points in a 120 volt light switch is 3/32" of an inch or 0.09375 inches or 0.2 cm. Yet that gap can stop, 120 volts or even 240 volts with unlimited amperage potential to a dead short. If the air did not quickly transmit voltage form one point to the other point, it could not ramp the voltage in the air, from one point to the other. If the voltage is not ramped, from one point to the other, it connects, and conducts amperage. Like silver would. If you put a piece of silver between the contacts of a light switch, it would raise both points almost equally in voltage. Almost totally regardless of the load.



You cannot conduct amperage without voltage, the reverse is also true, you cannot transmit voltage wthout amperage.

Voltage creates resistance, that is why marble is not thought of as a great electrode. If you measure the marbles voltage at the place where the metal conductor connects to it, it will be nearly the same as the conductor feeding it, even if the other end of the marble is grounded to something. When it is hanging in the water, though, it is no longer a dead short. And you will find that the solution cannot keep the voltage down like a dead short to ground does. You can do the same thing with a copper wire, you can have one end at one voltage and the other at another voltage even with steady DC power. As long as you do not use enough amps to melt the wire.
 
Look at the resistor or element in a soldering gun, it is a heavy bar of copper, a very large bar of copper, capable of powering heavy electrical equipment. One end of the very large bar is at one voltage and the other end is at another voltage. If we feed that same bar with pure DC current, one side would supply your body with power, while the other insulated you from it. That is all that is happening inside a dielectric. But on another scale of conductance. 

The only difference in the two scenarios is how much amperage one substance will conduct compared to the other. Both are conductors of electricity, one actually categorized as a conductor the other categorized as an insulator or dielectric. Water is a very good dielectric in actuality that is why people die from it, it is a very good dielectric.

Water when you stand in it actually insulates you from ground. For a proof, you can hold an insulated wire carrying Tesla like voltage at high frequency rather nicely while standing on dry ground, or even standing on shinny stainless steel. In fact you can even rest your bare damp sweaty arm on the grounded stainless steel and feel absolutely nothing. Now if you then stand in your water proof work boots, on a wetted floor, your body becomes isolated from ground, you become a plate in a capacitor, and your body can actually be moved by ionization forces. I mean your body can actually get moved or knocked around by ionization. This can happen to a TIG welder. When you have had enough of the bobbing, you can just grab onto a grounded object and it stops. 







                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick







 

 
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #4 on: 19/08/2012 10:24:40 »
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about , saying things like "The Green Berets used to use silver wire, the slowest of all conductors on earth"

There are two major factors that influence the speed of an electrical signal through a wire. The conductivity of the wire and the nature of the insulator (specifically its dielectric constant).
Since silver has the highest conductivity it gives the fastest propagation of the current (all other things being equal, though the effect of the insulator usually dominates the calculation of the speed)

"When you see zero ohms on an electrical meter, it does not mean that something out there like silver cannot create even less ohms. It is done that way because most of our stuff is made of copper, the wire, the PC boards you name it.  So unity in this case is zero ohms for copper of a short length. Silver would be minus or negative ohms.  "
More dross.
The resistivity of silver is only a little less than that of copper. It certainly isn't zero or (even more stupidly) negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity

Did you actually read your rant before you posted t?
Do you think that , for example "The other point, or terminal, that is not abundant with particles of electricity, maintains its voltage, with very little amperage applied. Thanks to air being so quick to match the surface voltage of less powerful insulators. " means anything?

"Look at the resistor or element in a soldering gun, it is a heavy bar of copper, a very large bar of copper, capable of powering heavy electrical equipment. "
Nope, just plain wrong again.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/replacement-element-for-antex-type-c-soldering-iron-630096?c=maplin&utm_source=gcs&utm_medium=gcs_search&utm_campaign=FR01B&utm_content=Mains+Soldering+Irons

The big lump of copper is the  tip or bit and it's not electrically connected to the heater voltage (it's usually grounded)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/replacement-tips-for-30w-soldering-iron-n38ac-618483


Perhaps most importantly, this
"Water when you stand in it actually insulates you from ground."
Is dangerous nonsense.




 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #5 on: 19/08/2012 12:23:20 »
Later in the paragraph there is a discussion about waterproof boots which are generally made out of either thick leather, or rubber.  In general they may be good insulators, but one should qualify the conditions when they would be insulators...  and potential danger points.  For example, I met an electrician who likes to use leather gloves when working at 110V or 220V, but would not use them when wet, or at higher voltages.  Likewise, a wet leather boot could be dangerous. 

Water itself is somewhat odd.  It is considered to be a relatively poor electrical conductor.  However, what it does is provide excellent surface contact, as well as perhaps soaking into the outer layers of skin, and also soaking through other materials that might otherwise have insulating qualities.  Water is also a good solvent for ionic compounds which in turn improve its electrical conductive qualities.

I've never had my body jump around due to TIG welding.  Most TIG welding is done at relatively low voltage (usually 10 to 30 V).  It may have a high frequency, high voltage (but low amperage) start current.  Sometimes I'll feel a slight tingle, perhaps due to the high frequency start current, and perhaps improperly grounded work.  Your skin is actually a relatively good insulator, so one typically isn't shocked by low voltages.  The biggest risks with electricity, of course, are getting an internal shock capable of interrupting the heart circuit, or involuntary muscle contractions which can cause a person to grab onto a wire.  And, of course, sever burns at high voltages.

None of this has anything to do with the hunt for a carbon electrode, although the original poster seems to have some ideas for things that can be tested.
« Last Edit: 19/08/2012 12:25:32 by CliffordK »
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #6 on: 19/08/2012 13:26:34 »
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about , saying things like "The Green Berets used to use silver wire, the slowest of all conductors on earth"

There are two major factors that influence the speed of an electrical signal through a wire. The conductivity of the wire and the nature of the insulator (specifically its dielectric constant).
Since silver has the highest conductivity it gives the fastest propagation of the current (all other things being equal, though the effect of the insulator usually dominates the calculation of the speed)

"When you see zero ohms on an electrical meter, it does not mean that something out there like silver cannot create even less ohms. It is done that way because most of our stuff is made of copper, the wire, the PC boards you name it.  So unity in this case is zero ohms for copper of a short length. Silver would be minus or negative ohms.  "
More dross.
The resistivity of silver is only a little less than that of copper. It certainly isn't zero or (even more stupidly) negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity

Did you actually read your rant before you posted t?
Do you think that , for example "The other point, or terminal, that is not abundant with particles of electricity, maintains its voltage, with very little amperage applied. Thanks to air being so quick to match the surface voltage of less powerful insulators. " means anything?

"Look at the resistor or element in a soldering gun, it is a heavy bar of copper, a very large bar of copper, capable of powering heavy electrical equipment. "
Nope, just plain wrong again.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/replacement-element-for-antex-type-c-soldering-iron-630096?c=maplin&utm_source=gcs&utm_medium=gcs_search&utm_campaign=FR01B&utm_content=Mains+Soldering+Irons

The big lump of copper is the  tip or bit and it's not electrically connected to the heater voltage (it's usually grounded)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/replacement-tips-for-30w-soldering-iron-n38ac-618483


Perhaps most importantly, this
"Water when you stand in it actually insulates you from ground."
Is dangerous nonsense.

You said of the current. I agree the full current or as much of the full current, as the silver wire can deliver, based on the length of wire, will get there first.

The full current or amperage will be delivered first, by the silver wire. However voltage will first be seen at the other end through an insulator.

That is how it has to work in order for an insulator to stop electricity.

There is a big difference between copper and silver a huge difference, if you want to see it.

Just like there is a huge difference between aluminum and copper when it comes to conductivity.

I had mentioned common ohm meters, they read zero ohms, or are calibrated to zero ohms through the test leads of the ohm meter. However that does not mean there are zero ohms present through silver. The meter would read negative ohms if it was capable of it and accurate.

I may be on another page now and then, however what I am saying I am saying for a purpose.

A large or long piece of copper wire that is open with no connection at the other end, will often draw a spark as you go to connect it, to a source of power. Showing that it is not quick to polarize. Where an insulator will not. Even lower ohm wire like copper nickle alloy wire is less apt to create a spark when connecting it.


                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick

 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #7 on: 19/08/2012 13:41:23 »
Later in the paragraph there is a discussion about waterproof boots which are generally made out of either thick leather, or rubber.  In general they may be good insulators, but one should qualify the conditions when they would be insulators...  and potential danger points.  For example, I met an electrician who likes to use leather gloves when working at 110V or 220V, but would not use them when wet, or at higher voltages.  Likewise, a wet leather boot could be dangerous. 

Water itself is somewhat odd.  It is considered to be a relatively poor electrical conductor.  However, what it does is provide excellent surface contact, as well as perhaps soaking into the outer layers of skin, and also soaking through other materials that might otherwise have insulating qualities.  Water is also a good solvent for ionic compounds which in turn improve its electrical conductive qualities.

I've never had my body jump around due to TIG welding.  Most TIG welding is done at relatively low voltage (usually 10 to 30 V).  It may have a high frequency, high voltage (but low amperage) start current.  Sometimes I'll feel a slight tingle, perhaps due to the high frequency start current, and perhaps improperly grounded work.  Your skin is actually a relatively good insulator, so one typically isn't shocked by low voltages.  The biggest risks with electricity, of course, are getting an internal shock capable of interrupting the heart circuit, or involuntary muscle contractions which can cause a person to grab onto a wire.  And, of course, sever burns at high voltages.

None of this has anything to do with the hunt for a carbon electrode, although the original poster seems to have some ideas for things that can be tested.

Work boots are rubber sole boots here in America. They were not leaking water. Some Cowboy boots are still leather.

The truth is that water is a liquid dielectric, just like you find in run capacitors. Water is a decent insulator and a great dielectric.

Like I mentioned water totally isolated me from the ground. All I had to do to stop being pushed around was grab the grounded work piece. I thought it was pretty cool.

The other point I am trying to lay the ground work for, is that, a fellow in Grumman Aero Space used a pencil to try to remove, a piece of metal that was stuck in a piece of electrical equipment. He was killed. Just something to think about.

Another fellow used a pencil to clean brushes on a sander or drill motor, and was killed. You can however use the special rubber brush cleaning tool while the machine is running, that is what it is designed for.

I know for sure that not standing with your feet flat on the ground, can cause electricity, to rush through your body, from high voltage, spark plug type power. Definitely causing pain in the heart. Going back on your heels makes you loose all that connection to ground.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #8 on: 19/08/2012 13:44:44 »
Carbon brushes take voltage from white sparks, and transmits it through the birth of the carbon. I would not hold a carbon electrode, and connect or disconnect it under a load. I would also not connect or disconnect a rusty iron part while it is under a load even a low voltage load. 


                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #9 on: 19/08/2012 13:50:16 »
You really need to stop talking bollocks
things like "There is a big difference between copper and silver a huge difference, if you want to see it. "
The difference in resistivity is about 5%.
"Just like there is a huge difference between aluminum and copper when it comes to conductivity. "
Aluminium is about 60% as good a conductor as copper.
It's not a huge difference.

"That is how it has to work in order for an insulator to stop electricity."
Insulators don't really "stop electricity"- they don't let it start.

"The meter would read negative ohms if it was capable of it and accurate. "

No. as I said before silver has a resistance (a little less than that of copper) it's positive and non zero.
Stop being silly: I already posted a link to the wiki page with the numbers.



"A large or long piece of copper wire that is open with no connection at the other end, will often draw a spark as you go to connect it, to a source of power. Showing that it is not quick to polarize. Where an insulator will not. "
Nope, any charge that flows will be a displacement current in the insulator.
As long as the conductor is at least reasonably good then the spark will happen. It depends on the insulator not the conductor.

And I'm trying to work out if this
"I may be on another page now and then, however what I am saying I am saying for a purpose. "
is an admission of trolling or just more gibberish.

"Water is a decent insulator and a great dielectric."
Nope, even pure water isn't a good insulator- it's a moderate conductor.
Puddles on the ground with people stood in them are likely to be very impure and hence quite good conductors.
It's been used as a method of murder in a fair few stories and also in real life.

"The other point I am trying to lay the ground work for, is that, a fellow in Grumman Aero Space used a pencil to try to remove, a piece of metal that was stuck in a piece of electrical equipment. He was killed. Just something to think about. "
Well I guess that's vaguely related to the topic, but it's a bit pointless- we all know that pencil leads conduct electricity.

I also suspect that most work boots have polyurethane (rather than rubber) soles which may well act as quite good insulators. So what?


" Carbon brushes take voltage from white sparks, and transmits it through the birth of the carbon. I would not hold a carbon electrode, and connect or disconnect it under a load. I would also not connect or disconnect a rusty iron part while it is under a load even a low voltage load.  "
Lunacy!
You still need to stop talking rubbish


 

Offline damocles

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #10 on: 19/08/2012 15:42:21 »

" Carbon brushes take voltage from white sparks, and transmits it through the birth of the carbon. I would not hold a carbon electrode, and connect or disconnect it under a load. I would also not connect or disconnect a rusty iron part while it is under a load even a low voltage load.  "
Lunacy!
You still need to stop talking rubbish


Lunacy, BC?

Well the first sentence would certainly suggest that. "Carbon" refers either to an elementary substance, that we would more usually call coke or graphite or charcoal or diamond, or to an element as such, when we say things like "carbon dioxide is 27% carbon and 73% oxygen". It is certainly not the sort of thing that can have a "birth" unless we are talking stellar fusion, supernova or big bang.

But the rest of the passage you quote is one of the few parts of the essay where the poster is being quite rational. Behaving with excessive caution is usually not a bad thing, particularly when you understand so little about what you are handling as the poster clearly does.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #11 on: 19/08/2012 17:34:04 »
I grant you that he is saying that he wouldn't hold onto a carbon electrode when it's under load, but the implication is that it might be acceptable with another electrode material.
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #12 on: 20/08/2012 01:52:01 »

" Carbon brushes take voltage from white sparks, and transmits it through the birth of the carbon. I would not hold a carbon electrode, and connect or disconnect it under a load. I would also not connect or disconnect a rusty iron part while it is under a load even a low voltage load.  "
Lunacy!
You still need to stop talking rubbish



Lunacy, BC?

Well the first sentence would certainly suggest that. "Carbon" refers either to an elementary substance, that we would more usually call coke or graphite or charcoal or diamond, or to an element as such, when we say things like "carbon dioxide is 27% carbon and 73% oxygen". It is certainly not the sort of thing that can have a "birth" unless we are talking stellar fusion, supernova or big bang.

But the rest of the passage you quote is one of the few parts of the essay where the poster is being quite rational. Behaving with excessive caution is usually not a bad thing, particularly when you understand so little about what you are handling as the poster clearly does.

That was the "berth" of the carbon brush, the width of the elctrode. The diameter, the circular mills, or rectangular area. A typo my spell catcher does not catch.

Tell people to play with rust and electricity and you are a murderer. Rust is one of the few things that still amazes me, every time I get a shock involving it. Rust creates high voltage from low voltage. Apparently rust can absorb the inductance voltage from air, that is created by a white spark, or plasma, from an ARC.

When you get an ARC, through a circuit, you have a self inducting element, the air, that is now conducting current, much like wire does. It acts just like a transformer or inductance device, or a self inducting elemental load.

The voltage in the ARC is much higher then the voltage you are supplying, with a standard ARC welder. In fact standing in good boots on dry cement, I could hold the ARC rod in my bare hand and feel nothing. If however if I am holding a rusty part when the ARC rod sticks or gets stuck to the work piece I am holding. And the fellow welding, pulls both the ARC rod off the work piece, and the work piece off the grounded side of the work piece. I can get a shock that goes right through my boots. I would relate it to a spark plug type of shock, but with more current.

Apparently carbon has the same ability, to capture the inductance voltage created, in an ARC and turn it into current in the carbon conductor. To a human the shock has been fatal to some. Some stun guns use carbon brushes to create high voltage. It is no joke, under the right circumstances it can kill you neatly. I was trying to warn of the danger, but I have to lay in the ground work, or obviously no one here knows what I am talking about. You have no idea of the experiments I have lived through.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick 
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #13 on: 20/08/2012 03:41:40 »
You may also choose to look up making lye from wood ash.  There should be lots of notes about it on the internet.

I think I mentioned earlier that carbon fiber mesh would give you rather good surface area, although you may need some kind of structure to separate the cathode and anode.

This tells a little bit about it.





                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #14 on: 20/08/2012 04:27:40 »
You may also choose to look up making lye from wood ash.  There should be lots of notes about it on the internet.

I think I mentioned earlier that carbon fiber mesh would give you rather good surface area, although you may need some kind of structure to separate the cathode and anode.

Do you want to make the potassium version the potash version? The book states that you boil down wood ashes to make the caustic. It absorbs carbonic acid, or carbon dioxide though rather quickly, killing the caustic nature of the substance. So they add recently burned quick lime to it, to make it very caustic.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #15 on: 20/08/2012 05:18:06 »
To make the quick lime, they say you roast limestone, until all the carbon dioxide is driven out. Then you can crush it and hydrate it, to make lime milk.

Just an interesting note, they say that limestone, when heated with a hydrogen oxygen flame, was capable of producing effects mimicking sunlight, for use in stage lightning. Before electricity that is what they used for stage lighting. Back when being in the lime light was just being in the lime light.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
« Last Edit: 23/08/2012 13:42:56 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #16 on: 20/08/2012 19:39:55 »

"That was the "berth" of the carbon brush, the width of the elctrode. The diameter, the circular mills, or rectangular area. A typo my spell catcher does not catch."
And who can blame if if you don't just use the wrong word, but you mis-spell it?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/berth
Feel free to find a reference to the use of the word "berth" for an electrode holder.
Even one in a language other than English would be interesting.


Having said that, the rest of the sentence makes no real sense anyway.

"Tell people to play with rust and electricity and you are a murderer. Rust is one of the few things that still amazes me, every time I get a shock involving it. Rust creates high voltage from low voltage"
More nonsense.
(So's most of the rest of it but there's no great merit to repeating it.)


Just a thought, when you realised that, on a site full of scientists " obviously no one here knows what I am talking about." did it occur to you that that lack of understanding might be because you talk nonsense?

Anyway...
"Do you want to make the potassium version the potash version? The book states that you boil down wood ashes to make the caustic. It absorbs carbonic acid, or carbon dioxide though rather quickly, So they add recently burned quick lime to it, to make it very caustic. "
Nope, there isn't any caustic potash formed- you get ordinary potash that way.
Or in new money you get potassium carbonate by leaching wood ash.
You can convert that to caustic potash with slaked lime (quicklime would be dangerously stupid and stupidly dangerous).

If you think about it, you will realise that, since fires produce lots of CO2 the one thing they can't possibly make is something that reacts readily with CO2.

 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #17 on: 21/08/2012 03:48:27 »

"That was the "berth" of the carbon brush, the width of the elctrode. The diameter, the circular mills, or rectangular area. A typo my spell catcher does not catch."
And who can blame if if you don't just use the wrong word, but you mis-spell it?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/berth
Feel free to find a reference to the use of the word "berth" for an electrode holder.
Even one in a language other than English would be interesting.


Having said that, the rest of the sentence makes no real sense anyway.

"Tell people to play with rust and electricity and you are a murderer. Rust is one of the few things that still amazes me, every time I get a shock involving it. Rust creates high voltage from low voltage"
More nonsense.
(So's most of the rest of it but there's no great merit to repeating it.)


Just a thought, when you realised that, on a site full of scientists " obviously no one here knows what I am talking about." did it occur to you that that lack of understanding might be because you talk nonsense?

Anyway...
"Do you want to make the potassium version the potash version? The book states that you boil down wood ashes to make the caustic. It absorbs carbonic acid, or carbon dioxide though rather quickly, So they add recently burned quick lime to it, to make it very caustic. "
Nope, there isn't any caustic potash formed- you get ordinary potash that way.
Or in new money you get potassium carbonate by leaching wood ash.
You can convert that to caustic potash with slaked lime (quicklime would be dangerously stupid and stupidly dangerous).

If you think about it, you will realise that, since fires produce lots of CO2 the one thing they can't possibly make is something that reacts readily with CO2.

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+berth&qpvt=berth&FORM=DTPDIA

It means the width of a ship or as we use it in America, the width of an object.

What is occurring to me is that the people here have not been outside of their bubble lately. Get out there, just look for evey thing that can go wrong and then try some of this stuff. I was trying to give you everything that can go wrong, so you can experiment safely.

Again you have stated as someone claiming to belong on a science forum that rust is not a danger if an ARC is formed with low voltage. You want to talk about bullocks, what you just stated, is nothing but that, nonsense.

I use a high frequency initiation system, and high frequency continuous system. While standing in good work boots, I can run the torch over my hand and white sparks dance on my hand. It feels as if you were running a cotton swab over you your hand. I have over the years, had pieces of metal that were not grounded, like the aluminum welding rod that I hold in my bare hand, come in contact with the tungsten, electrode, and even get welded to to the tungsten electrode, while never getting a shock, from the continuous high frequency.

Now comes the rust, when a piece is rusted, it is isolated from the grounded work piece. The rust is a dielectric, that isolates me from the piece as well. As the white high frequency spark, hits the rusty piece, I get hit with a heart wrenching amount of electricity. I actually threw a piece I was welding one day across the room, semi involuntarily when I initiated the high frequency. I was afraid of pulling tendons in my arm trying to keep from throwing it and just let my arm fling it across the room. It stuck in a wall. Ha-ha.

So I am sure that rust makes a big difference, a huge difference in the way metal responds to high frequency. It seems to me that the whole rusted surface raised to the white spark voltage, mighty fast. And mighty painfully. So before you tell people not to worry about rust do some homework.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick   

« Last Edit: 21/08/2012 03:58:05 by William McCormick »
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #18 on: 21/08/2012 04:34:07 »
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+berth&qpvt=berth&FORM=DTPDIA
It means the width of a ship or as we use it in America, the width of an object.
You might use the word "Breadth" to mean width.
Girth is also used used to mean circumference.
The width of a ship is its "Beam".
If you talk too much about "Berth", people may think you're sleeping on the job.

Rust (as well as paint) is not a good electrical conductor.  And, thus I usually clean off a spot of clean metal before attaching my grounding clamp.  And, everyone recommends cleaning your steel before welding.  I don't use a welding table at this time, just clamp the ground to a clean spot on the work.

Many power supplies fail to give  you constant voltage. 
I wouldn't be surprised if your power supply produces essentially 0V when away from the metal (perhaps also adding high frequency).
The high frequency (or scratch start) will start your arc, then you will have about 30V or so when welding.  But, if you put it through a good resistor (bad contact with the metal or ground), you may in fact get a much higher voltage...  100V or so?

It isn't the rust that is knocking your socks off, but rather your welder that is having troubles dealing with an abnormally high resistance circuit.

You could probably verify by attaching a cheap (Harbor Freight) voltmeter between the electrode and the ground.  Then striking an arc with a relatively poor ground connection.
« Last Edit: 21/08/2012 19:39:36 by CliffordK »
 

Offline SorryDnoodle

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #19 on: 21/08/2012 20:34:20 »
There was so much trolling in this thread it seems I didn't feel reading all of it to check if you found Your electrode.

This site sells electrodes of Lead, Carbon, Zink and Copper, but I am unsure where they ship, have a look.

http://www.sagitta.se/index.php?lang=eu

Also, they sell quite a bit of chemicals, but they only sell to schools, so if you're friends with the chemist in the school he may order some things for you, assuming you are still in school.

Also, Bored Chemist, you may want to look at this picture: http://gyazo.com/b68437e887be5c018f06430c38406e3e
« Last Edit: 21/08/2012 20:35:53 by SorryDnoodle »
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #20 on: 22/08/2012 03:03:17 »
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+berth&qpvt=berth&FORM=DTPDIA
It means the width of a ship or as we use it in America, the width of an object.
You might use the word "Breadth" to mean width.
Girth is also used used to mean circumference.
The width of a ship is its "Beam".
If you talk too much about "Berth", people may think you're sleeping on the job.

Rust (as well as paint) is not a good electrical conductor.  And, thus I usually clean off a spot of clean metal before attaching my grounding clamp.  And, everyone recommends cleaning your steel before welding.  I don't use a welding table at this time, just clamp the ground to a clean spot on the work.

Many power supplies fail to give  you constant voltage. 
I wouldn't be surprised if your power supply produces essentially 0V when away from the metal (perhaps also adding high frequency).
The high frequency (or scratch start) will start your arc, then you will have about 30V or so when welding.  But, if you put it through a good resistor (bad contact with the metal or ground), you may in fact get a much higher voltage...  100V or so?

It isn't the rust that is knocking your socks off, but rather your welder that is having troubles dealing with an abnormally high resistance circuit.

You could probably verify by attaching a cheap (Harbor Freight) voltmeter between the electrode and the ground.  Then striking an arc with a relatively poor ground connection.

You should know that your TIG machine turns air into a wonderful conductor of current. A small 3/8" diameter plasma beam, transmits commonly from about 45 to 175 amps. You should know that when you transmit that kind of amperage through, a conductor, and heat the conductor to white or even blue brilliance, that it is going to have to create a huge magnetic field around it. When that magnetic field drops out, you should know that the voltage is similar to a transformers field collapsing.

You can put a 1.5 volt battery to a very large transformer, hold both transformer leads and disconnect the battery, and die, for sure. Of this there is not doubt, to anyone that knows something of inductance fields. 

The proof that air is self inducting when it creates an ARC, is that, the powerful magnetic field, will not let you listen to an FM radio, if the radio and antenna are in line of site of the welder up to 50 feet away, outputting 90 to 175 amps. My point is merely this, if you do not know what I am saying you should not be fooling with electricity at all. You need to know what water does when it gets between you and an object. You need to know what an ARC is. You need to know that rust is a dielectric, and dielectric means what it says.

ARC used to stand for Anode, Rectified Cathode, you would not put your hand to the back of a cathode ray tube would you? Heck no, unless it was a mistake. I know people that have done it and lived. The voltage came right through a well insulated screw driver. 400 volts alone, cannot do that.

The point is that, you are dealing with very high voltage, even if the source of the ARC is chemical or low voltage. You need to know this before you experiment. Some chemicals like iodine and ammonia hydroxide, form powerful initiated explosives. Most would not consider that possible. However when your crystals dry, they can even detonate by themselves, from the drying process.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick 
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #21 on: 22/08/2012 03:10:57 »
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+berth&qpvt=berth&FORM=DTPDIA
It means the width of a ship or as we use it in America, the width of an object.
You might use the word "Breadth" to mean width.
Girth is also used used to mean circumference.
The width of a ship is its "Beam".
If you talk too much about "Berth", people may think you're sleeping on the job.

Rust (as well as paint) is not a good electrical conductor.  And, thus I usually clean off a spot of clean metal before attaching my grounding clamp.  And, everyone recommends cleaning your steel before welding.  I don't use a welding table at this time, just clamp the ground to a clean spot on the work.

Many power supplies fail to give  you constant voltage. 
I wouldn't be surprised if your power supply produces essentially 0V when away from the metal (perhaps also adding high frequency).
The high frequency (or scratch start) will start your arc, then you will have about 30V or so when welding.  But, if you put it through a good resistor (bad contact with the metal or ground), you may in fact get a much higher voltage...  100V or so?

It isn't the rust that is knocking your socks off, but rather your welder that is having troubles dealing with an abnormally high resistance circuit.

You could probably verify by attaching a cheap (Harbor Freight) voltmeter between the electrode and the ground.  Then striking an arc with a relatively poor ground connection.

Never got a shock from something painted. I did however get a few from anodized parts. Same kind of fast, charge, up to painful voltage.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #22 on: 22/08/2012 16:50:53 »
William - this is an official mod note.  Stop the non-mainstream rambling and pronouncements on the main boards.  If you can answer questions with acknowledged and recognized science then please do so - and your anecdotes and notions would be welcome on the New Theories board, but please do not continue to post them here.  I will start shrinking your posts if you continue. 

 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #23 on: 22/08/2012 19:56:56 »
"ARC used to stand for Anode, Rectified Cathode,"
No. as I pointed out before, it did not.
It is logically impossible for it to have done so.
Davy was using the term for a continuous spark back in 1801
However the first rectifiers were produced rather later
Notably the arc rectifier which was patented in 1918
The copper oxide rectifier 1938.
Point contact "Cats' whisker" diodes were developed about 1906

Also the words Anode and Cathode were only coined in 1834
So either explain how Davy was calling his new phenomenon after something that was only invented 30 years later or accept that you are (as with so many things) wrong.


Also
Nobody disputes "You should know that your TIG machine turns air into a wonderful conductor of current. A small 3/8" diameter plasma beam, transmits commonly from about 45 to 175 amps. "
but that's not the only thing the electric current goes through is it?
There's the rust too.
Ta's what makes Clifford's post about "It isn't the rust that is knocking your socks off, but rather your welder that is having troubles dealing with an abnormally high resistance circuit." a whole lot more sensible than the magical claims you are making about rust.

 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #24 on: 23/08/2012 01:51:33 »
William - this is an official mod note.  Stop the non-mainstream rambling and pronouncements on the main boards.  If you can answer questions with acknowledged and recognized science then please do so - and your anecdotes and notions would be welcome on the New Theories board, but please do not continue to post them here.  I will start shrinking your posts if you continue.

I would love to know what I said about dielectrics that is not mainstream?

I would love to know what I said about common welders that is not mainstream?

Everything I said will be there for all eternity to examine. I think you are doing yourself a disservice to deny it. It has always been that way.

If something I said can be matched or explained with some other science, I would love to hear it.


                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: 'Pronouncements' on electrodes, dialetrics and chemistry
« Reply #24 on: 23/08/2012 01:51:33 »

 

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