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Offline Emc2

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Eternal Universe Theory
« on: 24/08/2012 08:12:37 »
I for one, do not believe in the big bang, and believe the universe to be "infinite" so it has no beginning or ending and no center, for it has no edges...eternal and infinite....the big bang that happened , is to me no more then exploding super dense black holes that take in matter, explode and recycle it, there by providing eternal supply's of matter to an eternal universe.....

  so , no center anywhere.......


 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #1 on: 25/08/2012 08:00:35 »
the big bang is as believable as saying, God created it all.

  I mean come on now..

 Big Bang : in the beginning, there is no time, there is no space, there is no matter, there is no energy, there is nothing.
  suddenly, presto ( magic ), small proton or so sized particle appears out of nothing, and of course into "nothing", and of course this happened with "no time, and no space for said particle to even exist "within" to begin with......

  next, without any other elements, or energy, or time, or space, said particle - self explodes...............
  said "self" explosion some how expands into "nothing", magically "creating" space and time for expansion.
  this one small particle, somehow explodes into all of the matter that will ever exist....

  this small particle, has many of the powers of the Christian God....................and is just as Unbelievable....


  I prefer, the universe has always existed, and is infinite......and big bangs, happen all the time, throughout it...

  and thereby, the need for "any" "creation", is eliminated........recycling of matter,  but no creation......
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #2 on: 25/08/2012 09:56:10 »
things like "dark flow" might put a little kink into some of the expansion theory, according to the classical big bang theory.

According to standard cosmological models, the motion of galaxy clusters with respect to the cosmic microwave background should be randomly distributed in all directions. However, analyzing the three-year WMAP data using the kinematic Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect, the authors of the study found evidence of a "surprisingly coherent" 6001000 km/s[1] flow of clusters toward a 20-degree patch of sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_flow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor

NASA's Goddard Space Center considered that this could be the effect of a sibling universe or a region of space-time fundamentally different from the observable universe. Data on more than 1,000 galaxy clusters have been measured, including some as distant as 3 billion light-years. Alexander Kashlinsky claims these measurements show the universe's steady flow is clearly not a statistical fluke. Kashlinsky said: "At this point we don't have enough information to see what it is, or to constrain it. We can only say with certainty that somewhere very far away the world is very different than what we see locally. Whether it's 'another universe' or a different fabric of space-time we don't know."[9]

The existence and the velocity of dark flow will probably stay disputed until the new accurate cosmic microwave background radiation data by the European Space Agency's Planck satellite are available in 2012.[10]


   dark flow fits into my infinite and eternal universe theory, for the matter is from another exploding black hole, that created another mass of expanding matter, and this giant clump of matter, that is thought to be our universe, is only one of billions that sometimes through gravity affect each other....it could also be, one of the black holes that cause these matter clumps after they explode, "eating" an edge of our matter clump......pulling everything to it.....


« Last Edit: 25/08/2012 10:21:58 by Emc2 »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #3 on: 25/08/2012 14:05:29 »
There are problems with all ideas defining something out of nothing. You could assume that a Big Bang must be a result of something interacting, creating SpaceTime for us, but doing so we create a pearlband of Big Bangs that, if the arrow of time creating/allowing 'interactions' is to be believed, must have a origin. You can though think of indeterminism, quantum computing, and a whole bunch of other ideas all stipulating that on a very small scale statistics becomes a definer of what can happen, creating the interactions we observe inside a arrow.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #4 on: 25/08/2012 14:26:36 »
A Big Bang is in reality a enigma to us. The same can be said about the interior of a event horizon of a Black Hole. We do not have any real understanding of the physics behind and so they become, what's that word again? Ah, singularities. Just after the Big Bang there seems to 'curtain' that we can't peep through, think Imaatfal wrote about that somewhere here, but we can track it all the way to do that curtain using radioastronomy, looking out in 'time' as the further away the radiation the earlier the period we can discern.
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #5 on: 26/08/2012 00:45:30 »
yes, it seems that inside a black hole, the big bang, and many other things modern physics or math can not explain exactly these events in any great detail, and it leads to millions of "best guesses". but it is fun to imagine...

  I think the best approach is too keep it as simple as possible, keep it eternal and infinite.
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #6 on: 26/08/2012 00:55:32 »
yes, the big bang and black holes are enigmas, black holes are known to exist, and have been observed by there interactions on matter, so at least there there is some notion of reality, although modern math and physics are at a loss inside of one.

 the big bang is just the "best guess" based on the computations of many things.

  in a infinite and eternal universe, these enigmas vanish, and are explainable in a legitimate role, played out in giant cycles for all of eternity.....

   2 theories.

  creation - god / big bang / many others

  eternal - no god, many big bangs, and infinity is the right answer to the infinity question...

   
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #7 on: 27/08/2012 00:04:59 »
yes, it seems that inside a black hole, the big bang, and many other things modern physics or math can not explain exactly these events in any great detail, and it leads to millions of "best guesses". but it is fun to imagine...

  I think the best approach is too keep it as simple as possible, keep it eternal and infinite.
Yes but your simple - eternal and infinite will not explain observations; where did the cmbr come from, why are we in a universe of expanding acceleration, why do we see a cosmology of stars that fits with qm predictions and a universe of a finite age, why aren't all the stars gone out having burnt up fuel.

Arguments from lack of understanding and  incredulity are not gonna get you far.  the big bang is a highly predictive and successful theory of the early moments of the universe.  no one claims it deals with the beginning - we know we need a working theory of quantum gravity to deal with anything before or during the planck era.  the physicists involved in early cosmology or black holes do a lot more than guess - amongst other they try to mathematically model and produce systems that create the outcomes that we can observe; its not perfect but it isn't guessing either.
 

Offline bizerl

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #8 on: 27/08/2012 04:15:21 »
the big bang is as believable as saying, God created it all.

Any theory beyond our ability to experimentally verify is as believable as saying God created it all.

I think the best approach is too keep it as simple as possible, keep it eternal and infinite.

If you're keeping it simple, then you should be going with the most obvious answer based on observation. An eternal and infinite universe would mean we'd have to find complicated answers for everything we observe.

There is also an inherent (and somewhat semantic) contradiction in excluding a possibility in favour of an infinite universe. If you are truly prepared to embrace infinity (and I'm not sure our fleshy brain matter is actually capable of doing so), then you have to open yourself up to everything being possible - including a big bang.

I think we are limited in thinking about time and space as "all there is". The big bang theory doesn't deny an infinite universe, it just helps us understand the one that produced us. It's possible that something else took the place of time and space "before" or "outside" the big bang, but it's probably not something we will ever have access to.

It's fun to think about though!
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #9 on: 27/08/2012 05:23:30 »
yes, it seems that inside a black hole, the big bang, and many other things modern physics or math can not explain exactly these events in any great detail, and it leads to millions of "best guesses". but it is fun to imagine...

  I think the best approach is too keep it as simple as possible, keep it eternal and infinite.
Yes but your simple - eternal and infinite will not explain observations; where did the cmbr come from, why are we in a universe of expanding acceleration, why do we see a cosmology of stars that fits with qm predictions and a universe of a finite age, why aren't all the stars gone out having burnt up fuel.

Arguments from lack of understanding and  incredulity are not gonna get you far.  the big bang is a highly predictive and successful theory of the early moments of the universe.  no one claims it deals with the beginning - we know we need a working theory of quantum gravity to deal with anything before or during the planck era.  the physicists involved in early cosmology or black holes do a lot more than guess - amongst other they try to mathematically model and produce systems that create the outcomes that we can observe; its not perfect but it isn't guessing either.

  The CMBR can easily be explained as the radiation caused by the exploding black hole, and so can said expansion be accounted for.  An explosion that deposited matter in this area of the universe.

  Also no need for a "multi verse" if the universe is eternal and infinite...

  and the BIG BANG is not a universally accepted theory, more theoretical physicists are moving from a one time universe creating big bang, and trying to split it out into multiple big bangs causing multiple universes, this is one of the basics of "string" theory.

   note: lack of understanding,
   comes from accepting a theory that is not correct such as the big bang started even time itself, because if you'll believe that, then you'll believe about anything..

  if the math don't add up, then the math is not correct........or the theory.......

« Last Edit: 27/08/2012 05:38:47 by Emc2 »
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #10 on: 27/08/2012 05:32:01 »
the big bang is as believable as saying, God created it all.

Any theory beyond our ability to experimentally verify is as believable as saying God created it all.

I think the best approach is too keep it as simple as possible, keep it eternal and infinite.

If you're keeping it simple, then you should be going with the most obvious answer based on observation. An eternal and infinite universe would mean we'd have to find complicated answers for everything we observe.

There is also an inherent (and somewhat semantic) contradiction in excluding a possibility in favour of an infinite universe. If you are truly prepared to embrace infinity (and I'm not sure our fleshy brain matter is actually capable of doing so), then you have to open yourself up to everything being possible - including a big bang.

I think we are limited in thinking about time and space as "all there is". The big bang theory doesn't deny an infinite universe, it just helps us understand the one that produced us. It's possible that something else took the place of time and space "before" or "outside" the big bang, but it's probably not something we will ever have access to.

It's fun to think about though!

  yes, it is fun to grasp it all..  I agree in big bangs, in my universe, they happen all the time, and yes it is hard to imagine inifity, but it should not be so......

   energy can not be created nor destroyed, only converted.....it just is...is eternal...

  either means u calculate it out.

   1 ) something created something at one point to get something out of nothing...somethings else created this thing, something else created this thing.....etc.etc.  for infinity anyways !!


   2 ) something has always existed....infinity


  only 2 choices as I see it.
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #11 on: 27/08/2012 06:01:05 »
and everyday, challenges come against the current big bang..such as this one.

http://www.space.com/17217-big-bang-phase-change-theory.html


 

Offline bizerl

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #12 on: 27/08/2012 06:44:54 »
WARNING WARNING - WILD THEORY ABOUT TO BE PROPOSED WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP!!

Perhaps this observable horizon we call the "universe" is a giant virtual particle, destined to eventually be annihilated by it's anti-particle, which is why there is more matter vs anti-matter.

The sum of them both adds up to nothing. Of course this opens up another universe for this to exist in.

Side note - if you believe in infinity, and there is no limit to the size of "existence" (for want of a better word), then there is no limit to how small things can be.

Science has always progressed with bite-sized chunks of much bigger concepts. Maybe we just have to be content with a universe that "started" with a big bang and has sub-atomic particles that can't be resolved any smaller. Until we shuffle off our physical bodies for something more ethereal, we may as well just work with what we can.

Or maybe you are just all figments of my imagination...
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #13 on: 27/08/2012 07:17:08 »
LMAO !!  he he, actually an infinite universe, is a very old idea...and many theories rely on "infinity"

http://www.scientificphilosophy.com/Downloads/IUT.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/24/132932268/a-physicist-explains-why-parallel-universes-may-exist

  anyways

   an infinite universe in size, does not dictate matter can not have a maximum size +/-, matter already appears to enjoy 2 sets of rules, one on the sub atomic level, and one once matter achieves mass., think of it this way.

  space is infinite in size.  matter could be limited in availability, and there could be a smallest and largest level, these are quite possible, and likely probable outcomes.  Infinity in one thing, does not preclude infinity in another, for example my energy shall exist forever, I shall not......

  and in this infinite universe, black holes keep a fresh supply of matter coming into the universe, hence constantly creating patches of matter, that expand out into the vastness of spacs, only to one day be eaten by another black hole, only to start the cycle again..

   everything, in the universe has cycles, everything......and it is constantly evolving and changing..getting more complex...
« Last Edit: 27/08/2012 07:18:59 by Emc2 »
 

Offline bizerl

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #14 on: 27/08/2012 07:42:31 »
Haha! you said it yourself...
an infinite universe in size, does not dictate matter can not have a maximum size +/-, matter already appears to enjoy 2 sets of rules, one on the sub atomic level, and one once matter achieves mass., think of it this way.

What's to stop there being a different set of rules at another epoch that we haven't reached yet? If you're going to state that the universe is infinite, can you really extrapolate all of the physics (with all of the gaping holes!) across the entirity of foreverness? (disclaimer - science forum, not english forum)

I think scientists are willing to keep an open mind about how things work. We (humanity I mean - i mucked about at school too much to become a scientist) see stuff, and we decide what the most logical theory is to match our observations. This can lead to other ideas that cannot be tested. Yet.

To me, making logical sense about our world is important, however I recently had a very exciting revelation...

The universe doesn't have to make logical sense! It can do whatever the hell it wants. It's just possible that in order for life to exist and for us to be able to ask these questions, a wild and crazy set of physics all had to line up in the one universe without any notion of being "beautiful" or "simple". It would be great if pi were a nice round 3, or if the golden ratio was rounded up to 2, but we probably wouldn't exist in a universe that allowed this.

I always try to keep my mind open to the idea that my fundamental beliefs may be wrong.

In the words of George W. Bush "I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them."
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
« Reply #15 on: 27/08/2012 08:19:11 »
lol, not making sense to human beings is not too difficult, the universe has been and is going to do that forever.

  in essence, there is one truth, on its beginning, or not beginning.    and that one truth, may forever stay a mystery, or may actually one day be revealed....


  as far as making sense of the universe.. 

  one may theorize that there are a limited number of "universal" laws that govern all known "matter", all space, time, etc. etc.  and that these laws govern all things, this is very reasonable, and though many elude us today, that does not preclude there existence or non existence. 

  after finding constants, through observation, one can readily make the case, that "all" existence is bound by some "law" or another type of constant.

  and it may very well be, that at different levels of complexity, matter follows certain laws.

  a perfect example of this is life versus non life.....living matter is alive, non living matter is not...different rules.

  another example, is consciousness, or the emergence of mind, non living matter does not follow the same rules that allow  living matter to attain "consciousness"..nor does all living matter follow this rule, because not all living matter attains a type of "consciousness"..

  so different rules, do exist in nature already for different complexities of matter.....

   
« Last Edit: 27/08/2012 08:24:50 by Emc2 »
 

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Re: Eternal Universe Theory
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