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Author Topic: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?  (Read 7916 times)

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #25 on: 12/09/2012 15:18:42 »
Yep.  Relative motion is definitely detectable.  As far as we can tell, absolute motion isn't.  The Higgs field should act in a way that only relative motion matters when you calculate the predicted results of interactions.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #26 on: 12/09/2012 15:27:42 »
We agree there :)

As I see it then, a 'absolute frame of reference' is the one 'at rest'. That's your 'locally invariant frame of reference'. That this frame is shared by us all do imply that we all have a 'same origin', as in  a definition of how to relate it. But it does not state, again as I see it, that what we observe considering time dilations and especially LorentzFitzGerald contractions are a undivided SpaceTime. What I see joining us is what I call 'locality', radiation describing the relations between those localities, as defined by each observers clock and ruler.
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In a way this way of thinking becomes my 'static reality', if you see my drift :) Without 'motion' and without the arrow of time everything is 'at rest', in a exactly same 'ground state' if you allow me that expression. If we introduce the arrow without introducing motion, relative and accelerations, that static 'same reality' must start to differ (comparing between frames of reference), as in gravitational time dilations and LorentzFitzGerald contractions.

And yeah, we're wandering into philosophy here.
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Assuming that uniform accelerations is 'gravity', you can't really differ between the arrow and 'motion' though. The expression of gravity in a uniform acceleration must then be equivalent to 'motion' as expressed in mass, being in uniform motion, that motion describable as 'being at rest', unmoving.

But then you have that lights blue shift, as locally expressed?

« Last Edit: 12/09/2012 15:51:46 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #27 on: 12/09/2012 15:47:24 »
I see what you're getting at with defining your own frame as special and measuring everything with respect to that frame (that's what all observations consist of anyway).  But physicists avoid terming that 'absolute frame of reference' because that phrase has historical connotations of some universal reference frame, which is at odds with relativity. 

You can, of course, redefine terms to mean something new, but in order to avoid a lot of confusion the physics community has chosen to leave 'absolute reference frame' as meaning a universal, absolute frame, and discuss everything as relative motions between objects in different reference frames.  So when you mention 'absolute reference frame,' the meaning to a physicist is that you're talking about a universal frame, hence my confusion!
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #28 on: 12/09/2012 15:56:34 »
Yeah. I agree, but that's also what I question. Science must build on real time observations. And those must be repeatable locally, as defined from approximately same 'frames of reference' if we use Einsteins terms. And the way to do those observations/experiments is 'locally'.  Introducing 'weak measurements' we automatically assume some definitions, as causality chains, fitting what we see on Earth and elsewhere macroscopically but that's not science, that's philosophy to me.
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Don't get me wrong there. Philosophy, when logic, creates foundations for explaining science as I think. I meet a Chinese guy once, almost ashamed to admit that he loved philosophy but without philosophy what explanations do we have for those experiments? So in a way the defenders of causality chains are as correct as me. that's also why I think I'm wandering into 'philosophy of science', discussing the importance of 'locality'. But to me it's all important :)
« Last Edit: 12/09/2012 16:17:49 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #29 on: 12/09/2012 16:17:10 »
I'm not sure what you mean by weak measurements.  Are you talking about the idea in quantum mechanics of measuring making a measurement perturbing the system slightly?  I'm don't follow how that applies here.

I don't think there is any problem with calling your observation reference frame unique.  That's the point of special relativity (and much of quantum mechanics): predicting results that a given observer would measure, which of course relies on their reference frame.  It's only the term 'universal reference frame' that's a problem here, since scientific consensus defines that to mean something completely different than the observer's reference frame. 

The question of what makes an observer special certainly does have a lot of philosophical implications, though.  It's a bit beyond science, though, which restricts itself to predicting results, not trying to describe the metaphysical 'meaning' of it's equations.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #30 on: 12/09/2012 16:21:03 »
To me it is about what you observe, relative how you interpret it, JP. And a 'weak measurement' can be defined from statistics as 'probabilities', it must be possible to do so. But the way I find it presented reading about it is as 'hidden' causality chains mostly. Which I don't agree on btw. You can think of 'light paths'. and experiments 'proving' their existence to see my point there. It creates a causality (from a strictly local perspective, observing) that is not observed, except theoretically and cerebral.
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What I'm arguing against is the idea of everything fitting a 'classical interpretation', as we see it macroscopically. That's one good reason, to me, for embracing indeterminism as 'real', at least on that very small scale. Macroscopically we have a 'classical interpretation' that fits very well with what we see normally though. But then comes relativity, and puts it all on its head.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2012 16:37:11 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #31 on: 12/09/2012 16:50:41 »
Do you feel like starting up a thread about weak measurements and causality chains?  It's an interesting topic, but I don't want to derail this thread on dark matter too much.  :)
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #32 on: 13/09/2012 18:51:23 »
Hmm, as always, TNS threads grow 'organically' it seems? :) A much better way than the Asimovistic, ahem, in where only 'straight lines' are taken into account, and very fitting to how the universe works to me. But yes, this thread is about dark matter, sorry about that :)
 

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #32 on: 13/09/2012 18:51:23 »

 

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