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Author Topic: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !  (Read 4711 times)

Offline William McCormick

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Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« on: 05/09/2012 02:49:32 »
I guess being a member of this site, I am biased, but I don't see that attitudes of science has reached the level of apathy that confusedhermit is concerned about. Of course I have no statistics to back me up :)

I think science has definitely changed and we live in a society where incredible breakthroughs in thinking by individuals such as Newton, Einstein etc. are not the way science moves forward. I think that because science is so integrated in everything we do and so many more people are working in research, the "breakthroughs" have fizzled down to very specific applications, and therefore the media doesn't really care as much.

I think science is taken for granted rather than shunned.

I'm concerned about William McCormick's attitude to what science is. To me, the wonderful thing about science is that it is completely open minded. The only limitation that a (true) scientific mind should apply to the world is based on what is observed. Science loves proving itself wrong, because you can never really prove a theory correct, you can only fail to disprove it. And if the observations don't match up with current theories, then BAM! Current theories are thrown out the door and new theories are proposed in their place.

I also like the whole concept of peer review which allows an individual's research to be cross-examined by the scientific community to ensure that it is robust enough to stand up.

So anyway William McCormack, ironically perhaps I think you're wrong. I think that science is not about what is right and what is wrong, but about finding the most accurate match to the observations. You need to keep an open mind to the fact that you may be wrong, and with enough evidence, be willing to change your mind.

Ahhh Science!

Now I have something to bite on to. Ha-ha. My bark is worse then my bite.

You said science is open minded. Science is not open minded. Just like 2 + 2 must equal four, every second of every day, of our lives. Science must equal total and complete truth, to the bounds of infinity.

What is happening is that, real science is in the past. Today kids learn theories that are not real science. And yes to absorb those wrong theories you will need a very open mind. I personally watched them box and trash real science. The real space program. The government then bought and paid for theories that seemed a little like science, along with inflated expectations of what these theories would do for us. They backed the theories, with force, money, power, demotions, even threats of poverty.

After a couple generations, it almost seems like those theories must be the truth, because so many people could not be that screwed up. You don't have to believe me, but for me that is the only scientific answer.

The real world works just like Benjamin Franklin described it. He could fly a kite in a lightning storm, if only to prove the Royal science folk that their dare to fly a kite in an electrical storm, was mere childs play, if you understood electricity. Over 250 years later, you have half the world, some of the power companies, and most scientists, claiming that you cannot fly a kite in a lightning storm. There is no big deal to flying a kite in an electrical storm.

You should not be building electronic equipment, if you don't know you can fly a kite in a electrical storm. Many older consumers thought we had the protection of Benjamin Franklin's understanding of electricity, backing our products. Evidently we do not, or they would fix the wrong markings on our products, and get real science safely back in the hands of young experimenters.

As it is you cannot, safely experiment with electricity, unless you relabel the equipment yourself. It is almost unbelievable what has happened. What has been thrown away, will probably bring about Armageddon on earth. We had one more real shot, to turn civilization around while most understood, basic science. Today most have basic science wrong. Every second wasted now, is like slowly, cutting the last frail dried hemp ropes, keeping the earth from falling into a forever darkened abyss.

As far as others supplying me evidence, not a chance, when they start reciting what they remembered and learned from books, not understood, it falls apart in the real world. My circle of friends have already built the superior products, that the new theories promise, but will never deliver. I could pray to God that it was different or not true, but I would be wasting both of our time.

Our technology uncovered a past civilization, and they ended about where we are today. So think happy thoughts if you must. But I know where this is going.


                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick 




 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #1 on: 05/09/2012 05:14:01 »
The real world works just like Benjamin Franklin described it. He could fly a kite in a lightning storm, if only to prove the Royal science folk that their dare to fly a kite in an electrical storm, was mere childs play, if you understood electricity. Over 250 years later, you have half the world, some of the power companies, and most scientists, claiming that you cannot fly a kite in a lightning storm. There is no big deal to flying a kite in an electrical storm.

William,
I went ahead and looked up some information on the Ben Franklin Kite experiment.
Franklin was actually lucky to have survived, for after this famous incident, several other would-be-scientists who performed this same kite experiment were electrocuted.

It is possible that Ben Franklin was more careful than the others with holding onto a dry silk string.  But, he did apparently touch the key and get zapped during the experiment.

This should NOT be suggested to a general audience that it can be done safely.  IT CAN'T.

Anyway, let's get away from Ben, and back to Statistics and the Population as being asked in the question.

 

Offline RD

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #2 on: 05/09/2012 08:02:29 »
... There is no big deal to flying a kite in an electrical storm.

Don't stand anywhere near the string ...
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #3 on: 06/09/2012 02:01:08 »
The real world works just like Benjamin Franklin described it. He could fly a kite in a lightning storm, if only to prove the Royal science folk that their dare to fly a kite in an electrical storm, was mere childs play, if you understood electricity. Over 250 years later, you have half the world, some of the power companies, and most scientists, claiming that you cannot fly a kite in a lightning storm. There is no big deal to flying a kite in an electrical storm.

William,
I went ahead and looked up some information on the Ben Franklin Kite experiment.
Franklin was actually lucky to have survived, for after this famous incident, several other would-be-scientists who performed this same kite experiment were electrocuted.

It is possible that Ben Franklin was more careful than the others with holding onto a dry silk string.  But, he did apparently touch the key and get zapped during the experiment.

This should NOT be suggested to a general audience that it can be done safely.  IT CAN'T.

Anyway, let's get away from Ben, and back to Statistics and the Population as being asked in the question.

Ben is standing on dry ground, and he did not touch the key, he held his knuckle about 3/8" away from the key. At that time, the key hit his hand with a standard static electric jolt.

The silk ribbon, to the key and kite string, inside a wooden shed, standing on dry ground is the secret.  I would do it. It only takes about thirty thousand volts to repel lightning. Basically static electricity.

The rocket experiments where they send up the rocket with some very light magnet winding wire uncoiling out of the rockets tail, allows the inductive nature of the wire, and the capacitive nature of the wire, to draw current down to earth.

Ben used the dielectric nature of dry silk, to raise the kite string, at ground level, to about 30,000 volts. That in turn ramped the voltage in the string, up to a voltage, at the air between the cloud and the kite, that could repel lightning, at the cloud.

If you put a small charge into an AC line, premature to the end, of the half the cycle, that is ending, and premature to the start of the cycle that is beginning, and hold it at say five volts, before the normal cycle started, you will find that some induction equipment will not work. The equipment may even draw many times the normal amps it normally draws. Because you kill that snappy draw of the lines, that are capacitors. And you kill the sudden inrush current into induction devices that are not at zero volts.

It is that same principle that will let you fly a kite in a lightning storm. Only electricity repels electricity.




                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick


 

Offline Boogie

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #4 on: 06/09/2012 23:32:21 »
Nobody likes to admit that the French were the first to successfully conduct the kite experiment based on Ben Franklins annonymous (at the time) theory.

Time for a joke to break the tension :

Ben Fanklin was out fumbling around with his kite one stormy night when his wife yelled out the window "YOU NEED MORE TAIL!"

Ben replied "Make up your dang mind! I thought you just told me to go fly a kite!"


I saw a program the other night called "Dark Matters. Twisted but true" In this program I believe they said that William was the one who actually flew the kite. Ben directed and took notes. I'm not finding much for confirmation on this though. Did anyone else see that program?
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #5 on: 07/09/2012 02:05:22 »
I think everything indicates that Ben Franklin was very lucky.  We could have easily had one more forgotten American Hero.

He apparently connected the wire to the kite to a  Leyden jar.  This would have acted like a primitive capacitor essentially giving the kite string a similar charge to the clouds, which might have had a slight repulsing effect.  Still, had it reached the charge/voltage of a lightening bolt, then it could easily have arced through the air, or down through the silk, potentially killing Ben.

My guess is that by starting early in the storm, it allowed the system to come to equilibrium without any rapid changes like the rocket wire in RD's post.  Also, he may not have had the kite all the way up into the lower levels of the clouds, and thus did not get the full power of a lightening bolt.

I certainly would not recommend anybody to attempt this experiment without using a fully isolated automated system.
 

Offline William McCormick

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #6 on: 07/09/2012 03:48:00 »
The real world works just like Benjamin Franklin described it. He could fly a kite in a lightning storm, if only to prove the Royal science folk that their dare to fly a kite in an electrical storm, was mere childs play, if you understood electricity. Over 250 years later, you have half the world, some of the power companies, and most scientists, claiming that you cannot fly a kite in a lightning storm. There is no big deal to flying a kite in an electrical storm.

William,
I went ahead and looked up some information on the Ben Franklin Kite experiment.
Franklin was actually lucky to have survived, for after this famous incident, several other would-be-scientists who performed this same kite experiment were electrocuted.

It is possible that Ben Franklin was more careful than the others with holding onto a dry silk string.  But, he did apparently touch the key and get zapped during the experiment.

This should NOT be suggested to a general audience that it can be done safely.  IT CAN'T.

Anyway, let's get away from Ben, and back to Statistics and the Population as being asked in the question.

It is just a static voltage shock he got from the key. He did it more then once.

Can you live safely in your house while there is a lightning storm? If you can then you can safely fly a kite in a lightning storm.

Those people that wrote that web page, still imply that there are more then one type of electricity. Meaning they are still back in the time of Du Fay to this day.

There is one sub matter particle on earth the particle of electricity. It repels all things. It is either coming at you, or going away from you. It moves from an abundance to shortage.

The earth charges the surface of the cloud, the cloud like an ARC rod when fully abundant and nearing explosive levels of abundance. Starts an often slow moving, meandering ARC, to leave the cloud surface, we call this lightning. The truth is that the earth charged, the cloud up. So if you are afraid of the voltage in the cloud, get off the earth, because that is where it came from.

Watch this video a few times till it makes sense to you. In the first scenario in this movie make believe the torch is the earth charging up the cloud, the stainless steel work piece. It just silently charges the cloud.


Now in the third and finale part of the movie make believe the torch is the cloud getting hit from the ground or stainless work piece, because it is being struck with particles of electricity from the work piece. And then look at the lightning like effect, that beams back to the stainless work piece and does, melt its surface. The flow that beams back to the stainless steel work piece is against the flow of the very pure DC power supply. Just like lightning, beams back to earth against the flow of electricity that is charging the cloud. But you can see it does not just want to go from point A to point B. It just kind of explodes back or violently beams back.

Watching that ARC over the years, I have actually caught little lightning bolts in the ARC, beaming back to the work piece. It is amazing to see.

The voltage of lightning is merely, all the self inductance voltage the air can muster, along with, the amperage of two huge bodies, cconnecting through a plasma. Lightning is a cathode ray. That is why from the side of a lightning bolt, you can be, cooked from the inside out. Copper pipes and sheetrock often explode, when lightning hits near a house. That is because it is a huge cathode ray. The rays penetrate like very powerful UV and x-rays.

Nothing to dealing with it, if you know what it is. Benjamin Franklin new what he was dealing with. Most people, just read about it and talk about it.

If you wanted to make the experiment a little safer, I would drive a copper ground rod into the ground and get the kite up, with the silk attached to the ground rod.

                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick


                     



 

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Re: Flying Kites in Thunder Storms !
« Reply #6 on: 07/09/2012 03:48:00 »

 

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