The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: where have all the scientists gone?  (Read 18676 times)

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #25 on: 05/07/2006 07:09:10 »
bringing up the uncertainty principle is really reaching. testing "changing" the experiment is the observer principle, not the uncertainty principle.

"In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle or just Uncertainty principle (sometimes also the Heisenberg indeterminacy principle - a name given to it by Niels Bohr) states that one cannot measure values (with arbitrary precision) of certain conjugate quantities, which are pairs of observables of a single elementary particle. These pairs include the position and momentum."

"However, Heisenberg showed that, EVEN IN THEORY WITH A HYPOTHETICAL INFINITELY PRECISE INSTRUMENT, no measurement could be made to arbitrary accuracy of both the position and the momentum of a physical object."

 this is not referring to the instrument interfering, just the impossibility to measure position and momentum at the same time.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #26 on: 05/07/2006 16:41:26 »
Oh, okay I see now. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle only says, you can't measure, Position and Momentum. And surely, experiments requiring momentum and position are quite rare. Oh wait, now that I think about it, EVERY experiment requires the measurement of position and momentum.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2006 18:57:11 by thebrain13 »
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #27 on: 05/07/2006 18:55:01 »
it says you cant measure them at the same time. even with an INFINITELY PRECISE INSTRUMENT. this is a fact. it has nothing to do with the instruments interfering with the experiment. you were wrong and now that you were wrong youre changing the argument.

NO ONE ever said that many experiments dont require the measurment of position and momentum.  you are now just taking this argument wherever you can to win it.

maybe you should try to understand these things before you have a knee-jerk reaction to them. i, like you, am a rationalist and wish that science was always about determinism. but quantum mechanics(with actual evidence to back it up, and most of it has) makes physics quite less determinable. i think its the most important advancement(yes, it is an advancement) in science in the last couple centuries

youre going out of your way to not understand these things and argue agaisnt them,  and youre looking like a fool.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #28 on: 05/07/2006 20:53:32 »
This is getting a little semantical. Your right, I said, testing changes the experiment, as a result of the heisenburg uncertainty principle, this is a false statement, the heisenberg uncertainty principle doesn't literally CHANGE the experiment through force, the observer effect does(which is often confused with the heisenberg uncertainty principle) but it does state that OBSERVING the experiment changes it. Or at least how I understand it is that observing momentum changes position and observing the position changes its momentum. Otherwise you could measure both of them. Both qualities are essential to understanding any experiment, so essentially the observer effect and the heisenberg uncertainty principle do the same thing. And thats not allow you to test an experiment with accuracy.

I dont go out of my way to not understand quantum mechanics, if that were true I wouldn't of bought books about it, and I certainly wouldn't of read them, although your right that I do get a knee jerk reaction when I read them, at least it isn't most peoples nieve reaction of, this has to be right, and I completely understand it. And at least I can take comfort in knowing Einstein shares my hate for quantum mechanics.

And, I dont think I have changed my argument much at all. I did start this post, and I titled it, where have all the scientists gone. And yes, I've changed this argument to, Why are all the scientists gone. I've changed it in that way, but I dont think thats what you were refering to, right?

One of the reasons I figured science is slowing, is peoples limited ability to test things, which unlike olden days, there are laws now, that say you can't, instead of people admitting they can't, due to technological limitations. And the heisenberg uncertainty principle is a cause for why, wether you believe it affects the experiment literally or not.

And quantum mechanics doesn't predict experiments, or at least not with any success, there are many documented predictions of quantum mechanics, and they almost always fail. All quantum mechanics does is explain them with the immense ambiguity, and pure quantity of its laws. And there is no damage to the credibility of the theorist because its written by a thousand of them. Which is another way you know quantum mechanics is bogus, there aren't a 1000 people with the ability to simply invent conceptual physics theory. People with that kind of ability are EXTREMELY RARE!!!

I could go on and on about quantum mechanics, but I think Im going to put that in a different post, because that would be one long post, and nobody will read down this far, in this post, anymore.

Finally, I could care less if you think I'm a fool, because people only think other people are fools due to the fact that they think differently then them. Which is another Humungous problem of physics.
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #29 on: 06/07/2006 07:36:05 »
what i meant by you "changing the argument" is first you said that heisenbergs principle interferes with the experiment, and i explained to you how thats not true. THEN you said "And surely, experiments requiring momentum and position are quite rare. Oh wait, now that I think about it, EVERY experiment requires the measurement of position and momentum." you had to state something of your own to deny. I, nor anyone else, ever said that most experiments dont require measurment of position and momentum. youre extrapolating things i never said.

the heisenberg principle DOES NOT state that observing the experiment changes it. this just isnt true. it states that position and momentum cannot be measured simultaneously, even with an infinitely precise instrument(not our senses). this is true and prooven. it is not just a fluke theory, like i agree with you, some quantum theory is.

just because einstein shared you view doesnt make it more credible. we could spend all day picking famous historical figures who would agree with us.
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #30 on: 06/07/2006 10:51:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13

what happened to all the great scientist? whats the biggest breakthrough since 1925?


There are several reasons for you not hearing about modern 'great scientists':
-The scientists of 1925 came up with a load of equations that seem to work, but to be honest we can't solve them mathematically a lot of the time, but when we can they work, so why would we need new ones?
-The conditions where they may not work are so difficult and expensive to achive, the research budgets don't really stretch there.
-There are hugely more scientists than there were 80 years ago, so discoveries tend to be the work of 50 people not just 3, so individuals don't stand out so much.
-People have already done all the easy, not so easy, and even quite hard stuff. Leaving only the bloody difficuly or obscure.
-It took about 40years for quantum mechanics to bed in properly, so

quote:
how come nobody talks about logic and reason? why are all scientists obsessed with proving ridiculous equations and theories about events nobody has seen or have any evidence for? why is everybody trying to prove the universe has 26 dimensions and an infinite amount of possibilities and probabilities, how about trying to create something with practical applications not theories that are deamed practical because proving them is impractical. When will somebody say stop, thats nonsense!!



There are probably hundreds of thousands of scientists in the world, probably a few tens of thousand physicists, and a maybe a few thousand theoretical physacists in the world. 90% of whom are looking at the theory of difficult but useful systems. Eg one of my friends is investigating how cracks propagate in silicon, which could be important in developing new materials at some point in the future. Maybe the other couple of hundred physicists are looking at stupid things, but maybe one of them isn't stupid. Only about 110 years ago there was a big arguement about whether atoms exist, and even if they do whether there was there any point in looking at them, as you were  never going to be able to see them.

Most of the reason you only hear about the crazy ideas, is that 'universe is actually part of a 16 dimentional hyper-cow' is a much better headline than 'physicist develops a good model of how silicon breaks'.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #31 on: 06/07/2006 17:18:19 »
I was only implying that EVERY EXPERIMENT requires the measurement of BOTH postion and momentum. To say you can't measure those quantities is to say you can't measure any experiment. Regardless of if the heisenberg uncertainty principle, changes the experiment or not. Which it would have to, otherwise you could measure both.
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #32 on: 06/07/2006 22:04:12 »
ok. youre exactly right that thats what it means. however, its prooven. so are we supposed to assume certainty when certainty is impossible? that would be to deny a true principle, and opposite of your determinism.

the heisenberg uncertainty principle exists. do you want scientists to ignore it, and just have bogus position and momentum measurements? how far would that push science forward? for the last time it does not CHANGE the experiment.

 the principle is not as far reaching as you seem to think it is. it works on an elemental level. there is uncertainty measuring the position and momentum of atoms, and thats very important when doing so. there is also uncertainty measuring a trains position and momentum, but its so minute its practically negated. the principle does not just deny all experiments. if you do regular physics work on a macro-level its really not important to consider.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #33 on: 06/07/2006 23:39:46 »
How can you prove that you cant prove something? And quantum mechanics is the study of physics on a micro-level. Hence quantum mechanics can't be proven, just speculated about. So why thats all physicists work on now, is beyond me...........(actually it isnt).... ):

And I know you said this is the last time your going to say the uncertainty principle doesn't change the experiment, but if thats so, why cant you measure BOTH position and momentum?
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #34 on: 07/07/2006 03:40:05 »



Of course quantum mechanics can be tested.

I canít prove that electrons exist because their to small and i cant see them ,However i have a theory that if you put your finger in a plug socket I will be able to prove their existance beyond all reasonable doubt. Just because you canít see something doesnít mean its existence or behaviour canít be tested and experimented upon

A scientific theory may not be able tot prove nothing 100 % but for it to be classed as a theory it has to be accompanied by lots of testable evidence and has to have been independently tested and scrutinised many times using the predictions which the theory has to be able to accurately give for any experiments under the domain of the theory. If any one experiment shows its predictions to be inaccurate or if any other new theory comes along which has better predictions using different means then its goodbye to that theory.

And if all experimental data accurately mirrors the predictions of the theory only a
Fool would challenge it.



Michael
« Last Edit: 07/07/2006 03:44:04 by ukmicky »
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #35 on: 07/07/2006 04:37:38 »
The motion of electrons on a large scale(electricity) is perfectly understood without quantum mechanics claims.

Your statement, if any one experiment finds predictions to be inaccurate, or if any other theory comes along, which has better predictions using different means, then its goodbye to the theory is not true. I wish that were so, and its certainly the way it ought to be, thats how it was done in the olden days. But your highly naive if you think that you can ever disprove quantum mechanics with a better theory. Its rarely goodbye to theory time, in the quantum world, but its simply, reinterpretation of theory time. And you can always do that given how vague their laws are. You can predict anything you want to, using quantum mechanics. Whenever there is a new experiment, quantum mechanics always lays claim, that in fact, Quantum theory predicts that, but they never ever explain an experiment BEFORE its conducted. At least not with success that is.
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #36 on: 07/07/2006 11:15:58 »
Urrr NO electricity is by no means explained without QM. You can explain all the simple stuff you learn at school without it, but try and explain how a transistor works, LEDs, the quantum hall effect, let alone superconductivity with classical physics and you will have problems!!!!

To say that QM has never predicted anything before it was discovered shows a distinct lack of research. Look up the Josephson effect. This is a property of certain superconducting systems that was predicted in the appendix of Josephson's PhD, and was found to exist a few years later. It is now used to produce very sensitive magnetic detectors called SQUIDs amongst other things.
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #37 on: 07/07/2006 11:20:56 »
As a chemist, can I just jump up and down a few times, wave my arms and scream SPECTROSCOPY  ?

The dependence of spectroscopy on the quantisation of atomic and molecular electron energy levels is pretty difficult to argue with, but I don't have time this week to explain the details so if anyone's interested they'll have to google it.

I don't much care about the formal physics, but it sure as hell isn't going to be explicable in terms of classical behaviour, and QM works very well. And predictively.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #38 on: 07/07/2006 21:34:55 »
you can explain anything with qm, wether its been proven right or wrong, so its always a success in explaing already been done experiments. Find its successes when attempting to explain a never before seen phenomena, and then compare that to how many times its failed. And the failures will truely be overwhelming.
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #39 on: 07/07/2006 23:31:59 »
Quote some instances, please.
With enough information for it to be apparent that they really do support your claims.
 

Offline xpowderx

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #40 on: 14/07/2006 09:49:36 »
WOW, is amazing to see "Old School" scientist types defend a dying form. But I put alot of thought into QM as do many others. In fact so many other science types do, Intel is releasing a new microchip based on QM fundamentals. This chip is 2x as powerful as the current Pentium IV chip and is half the size. It is to take over the market by august, since it is half the price of the best pentium chip available.Computer chips will be slashed almost in half!

Nanotechnology is a huge and emerging market. Of which all nanotech is based soley on QFoQR theorem.
Another great works of QM is the cure of the disease that causes ovarian cancer. Genetics! What more "proof" does one need!  Old school science has nothing on the DNA strands that are defined as 1,0,0,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1 ect.

To any of the old school ideologists I would recommend going back to school and getting up to speed. There are alot of young scientists out there revolutionizing all aspects of our world. Get with the program!!
 

Offline xpowderx

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #41 on: 14/07/2006 10:15:58 »
Sorry for the double post! On a side note I notice that those who stick to old science beliefs do so concurrently to bash a religion or faith. To do such isnt science! Science is here to promote and allow man to grow/prosper! It is a tool to help our lives get better! While some science is double-edged good and bad for the most we use it for the good. It is a logical choice to look into all probabilities of thought. As a scientist you are always looking for something new, something that can be created with benefit! Science always grows as we do! If it didnt we would still be the equivalent of a cave man!
Some who retain old thoughts stay that way his/her whole life. Its a comfort zone!
As to a revolutionary scientist, you think they stayed in a comfort zone? No those types are the ones who took risks, who do the great miracles. Did I expect to see a cure for some forms of cancer? Did I expect to see a car run of waste products actually work? In my lifetime! As to me did I expect to see a adhesive stick to human tissue without a reaction to either the bond or tissue itself? Thus giving way to one of the most common forms of heart surgery in the world, Angioplasy!

In the past 20 years there have been so many revolutionary ideas that have formed our current technology that to name just a few scientists as being above the rest would be shallow. We as scientists, researchers, technicians, do so to benefit our race!
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #42 on: 15/07/2006 04:41:25 »
I guess what I will never believe about physics, no matter what, is that its nature is non deterministic. Lets say someone tips a traffic cone upside down, draws a straight line of sidewalk chalk, so it intersects with the middle of the cone. Then he asks me which way is the cone going to fall? I would respond, shoot I dont know, there are a number of factors. Maybe the way you release it, the wind, the uneveness of the base, one side of the cone might be slightly heavier, the light from the sun, uneveness of the pavement, heck maybe that pesky aether really does exist and alters the fall. There are so many little things that could affect it I surely dont know. He then replies, no your wrong, there is a fifty pecent chance that it will fall one way, and a fifty percent chance it will fall the other. Its been proven, they have labratories that can eliminate all of those forces. It still has a fifty percent chance of falling one way or the other. And its been applied too, they have betting machines in vegas, and they always work perfectly. Its been proven over and over and over. I say, yeah but there are still so many little factors. He says, no, even with one hundred percent accuracy, it always falls one way or the other 50% of the time. Its a proven theory.

Is this traffic cone analogy any different than qm's probabilistic nature? No, I dont think so, there are so many little things that could affect a fundamental particle by the tiniest amount, the arrogance of scientists to think that they can control EVERYTHING. Just because we havent discovered a small force responsible for the apparent actions of particles at the smallest scales, doesnt mean there is no force.

Here Ive got a few that maybe could possible explain its fundamental probabilistic actions. Granted they havent been discovered yet, maybe there are more fundamental particles bombarding the others from all directions? maybe charge is carried out in little bundles from all over the universe. Maybe distance at the finest scales is somewhat quantized. Maybe newtons first law is only relevant over long periods of time. Maybe acceleration is played out in quantized bunches. Who the hell knows? How can you rule out EVERYTHING!!!! Proving something has a chance to be here or a chance to be here, is like proving there are no aliens anywhere.

Oh but its been proven, they have quantum computers.

I blame the arrogance of modern day scientists to admit they dont know. I blame the general public, who control their salaries, and their status and credability. I blame this thinking at least partially, for slowing physics in the last 30 years in particular.

But you know, its nobodies fault, the knack for the creation of theoretical physics is a very rare and powerfull ability indeed. And the masses just cant understand
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #43 on: 15/07/2006 05:10:50 »
And Im not really an old school scientist, stuck in my old ways. Im only 19.

And I forgot one other person to blame, William Shatner. You'd be amazed how much modern physics was created by star trek.......yes......star trek
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #44 on: 16/07/2006 06:55:43 »
this is reminding me of the einstein/neils bohr discussion about quantum theory. einstein provided practically the same argument you did about probability, saying that there are unlimited tiny forces effecting what side a di(one dice, not a typo) lands on, so it can be determined through conventional physics, like all probability. "go does not play dice with the universe"

unfortunately i agree with the counter-argument, which states that untill all those tiny forces can be controled in an experiment, (which i truly believe they cant, because theres too many to account for) its more accurate to work with probablity instead of determinism. "dont tell god what to do with his dice"


this is probably full of factual errors but i think i got the core of it correct.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #45 on: 16/07/2006 22:10:16 »
Its perfectly okay to use probability to predict the outcome of an event when you dont know, why the outcome happens, or all the necessary variables to predict the outcome.

For example I am a poker player. I base nearly all my decisions on the probabilities of certain cards coming, and the probabilities of my opponents cards coming. If Im waiting for a flush, and I need a spade, its perfectly fine to calculate the odds of me getting it. But Im not about to write a physics law that says each card has a, 1 in whatever chance of coming. I know there is only one unchanging, non-random, card on top of the deck, if the dealer deals a 7 of hearts, that means there was a 100% chance that a seven of hearts would come. If you reverse time and deal them again, its would still be a seven of hearts. The seven of hearts was placed on top of the deck by the dealer. If you could calculate all the little forces the dealer put on all the cards, you could determine with complete accuracy where each card is.

Im saying, it's fine to calculate the odds of each card coming for your benefeit, Its not fine to say even if you knew all the tiny forces the dealer is applying to the cards, they are still random.
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #46 on: 17/07/2006 04:20:10 »
And the counter argument doesnt say, untill all the tiny forces are controled, we can use probabilities. It says even if all the tiny forces are controlled, there are still probabilities.
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #47 on: 17/07/2006 09:14:59 »
i see what you mean. im not sure all physics works like a deck of cards though. but more often than not, it pretty much does
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: where have all the scientists gone?
« Reply #47 on: 17/07/2006 09:14:59 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums