# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?  (Read 10307 times)

#### liquidspacetime

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 119
• Thanked: 2 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #25 on: 31/10/2015 12:22:51 »
In a double slit experiment it is the mass which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter that waves.

#### Jarek Duda

• Full Member
• Posts: 70
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #26 on: 31/10/2015 12:38:43 »
There are at least 4 types of mass:
- energy released while annihilation with antiparticle - usually as massless photons, like on this animation of kink - antikink annihilation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_defect#Images
- inertial mass - in Newton's: F = m*a
- gravitational mass - e.g. F = m * g
(still not confirmed for electron: http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.19.1049 )
- de-Broglie's clock/zittebewegung defining frequency of waves coupled with the corpuscle

Which mass are you talking about?

In double slit we need a medium (field) propagating the waves like in Couder's experiments - the only type of mass required for this medium is inertial mass - relating applied energy with kinetic properties.

#### liquidspacetime

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 119
• Thanked: 2 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #27 on: 31/10/2015 12:44:12 »
Mass is defined as that which physically occupies three dimensional space.

#### Jarek Duda

• Full Member
• Posts: 70
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #28 on: 31/10/2015 12:53:31 »
Oh, so you just have another name for your liquid/aether.
No, this definition of yours is not in agreement with anything I have met with.

Sure, if you want only to talk with yourself, you can call stuff as only you can imagine.
However, if you would also like to communicate with others, the best way way is to use a standard nomenclature, for example that the medium filling the spacetime is a field and by default is Lorentz invariant.
Best,
Jarek

#### liquidspacetime

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 119
• Thanked: 2 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #29 on: 31/10/2015 12:59:12 »
The medium filling spacetime is the aether which has mass, is physically displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it and is what waves in a double slit experiment.

#### Jarek Duda

• Full Member
• Posts: 70
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #30 on: 06/08/2016 06:38:09 »
If like in Couder's picture we agree that QM is an effective model - describing our limited of knowledge, enhancing classical mechanics by the wave nature of particles (generated by some internal periodic process), we need to finally face the question of trajectories of particles - including electron's in atoms.

There are no doubts that such hypothetical trajectories of electrons should average to densities of quantum wavefunctions - and considering statistical physics on them: Boltzmann distribution among paths, it is clear that theromodynamically they should average to quantum densities (euclidean path integrals / Maximal Entropy Random Walk).
There is a nice experiment that literally makes photos of atoms: measure this electron density - by pulling out single electrons, measuring their position while leaving the atom and finally averaging over positions of thousands of electrons:
http://journals.aps.org/prb/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevB.80.165404

But the question is what are the short-time trajectories of electron in atom?
Standard answer is circular Bohr trajectories - which is still used especially for Rydberg atoms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydberg_atom
However, Bohr's model is known to be generally in disagreement with experiment - can it be repaired?

So Bohr model sees only charge of electron, while it has also extremely strong (for its mass) magnetic dipole moment - electron is also a tiny magnet.
This magnetic moment corresponds to "quantum" spin-orbit interaction, but it has also a classical consequence: Lorentz force for this tiny magnet traveling in electric field of the nucleus.
This force is perpendicular to velocity and spin direction and is proportional with v/r^3.
It is usually practically negligible, unless very large velocity and tiny distance - while free-falling, this force prevents electron falling into nucleus. Instead, the trajectory is bent and electron misses nucleus, then returns to the original distance, but on different angle.
This way zero angular momentum hydrogen can rotate - complex objects can rotate even having zero angular momentum, like in the falling cat problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_cat_problem

This free-fall atomic model is claimed to give much better agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall_atomic_model
Here is derivation of the classical spin-orbit correction: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12405967/freefall.png
Single-electron simulator in Mathematica: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12405967/freefall.nb

And somebody's simulation for up to 10 electron atoms ( youtube.com/watch?v=P2IsIkSn5bk ):
« Last Edit: 06/08/2016 06:41:59 by Jarek Duda »

#### Jarek Duda

• Full Member
• Posts: 70
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #31 on: 20/11/2016 09:42:32 »
All the news say that the "impossible drive" has been confirmed by NASA:
http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/full/10.2514/1.B36120

The problem is 3rd Newton law - there is a sealed resonant chamber and they claim it produces thrust.

The main hypothesis in this paper is that there is no problem because this momentum is just transferred by pilot waves (?) - like those in Couder's experiments.

What do you think about it?

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4721
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #32 on: 20/11/2016 10:11:40 »
Nothing to do with Couder, but apparently another manifestation of radiation pressure from a radiofrequency source. Same principle as photon momentum but at a lower frequency.

#### Jarek Duda

• Full Member
• Posts: 70
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #33 on: 20/11/2016 10:43:26 »
Indeed momentum transfer as leak of EM waves was also my first thought when I have heard about it a few years ago - like while using laser for repulsion, but with much lower frequencies.

I have mixed feelings about it, but generally pilot wave could carry some tiny momentum (?) - allowing it to give some tiny thrust ... (they cite Couder-Fort and some following papers).
And in contrast to EM waves, pilot waves would penetrate through the metal walls of this resonator.

update: walking droplets from Veritasium - million views in 3 weeks ( youtube.com/watch?v=WIyTZDHuarQ ):
« Last Edit: 20/11/2016 11:53:48 by Jarek Duda »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Wave-particle duality of Couder's walking droplets?
« Reply #33 on: 20/11/2016 10:43:26 »