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Author Topic: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE  (Read 6636 times)

Offline GBSB

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DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« on: 01/07/2006 21:55:00 »
WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
 (Why humans adopting bipedal stance)

Young human who is adopted by animals is adopting four leg stances.

Young four legged animals adopted by humans never adopted bipedal stance.

It is to conclude that for humans it is still natural to walk on four legs.


Humans still didn’t completely adopt the bipedal stance.

By humans like no other species current process of evolution is visible.


By children, driving force to adopt bipedal stance and upright body posture is wish to imitate surrounding social environment and to be part of social environment - to be accepted by the community.
Because of pressure from social environment of humans, children in process of learning to walk are forced to challenge their own physical strength and physical balance in some higher degree than if they grow in social environment of animals.
 
To be able to move from one place to another (walking, running or jumping) it is necessary to be able to resist the pull of gravity.
 
To be able to resist the pull of gravity we need some level of physical strength and some level of physical balance.

Just standing or moving from one place to another (walking, running and jumping) on four legs in position parallel with the ground, demands some level of physical strength and physical balance of the body.

Doing any activity on two legs is much strenuous than on four legs.
It is much easier to maintain balance using four legs like all another four legs animals than by using just two legs.
Before carrying gods and tools comfortable stance was four leg stances. Carry goods in the hands and/or on the shoulder cause gain more physical strength and balance.

We can improve physical strength of the body only if we are challenging existing strength of the body.

We can improve physical balance of the body only if we are challenging existing level of physical balance.


By carrying some weight on the shoulder or/and in the hands we need to use more physical balance and more physical strength than what is necessary to carry just own body weight. Carrying goods in the hands and on the shoulders enable to gain more physical strength and physical balance than what is necessary to carry own body weight.

Improvement in physical strength and physical balance enable carrying own body weight with more easiness.

After improving physical strength and physical balance of the body human find more comfortable to walk, run and jump in two legs in upright body posture

As process of gaining more physical strength and physical balance than what is necessary to carry only own body weight happened in upright body posture, human start to be more strong and balanced in bipedal stance in upright position than in bipedal stance in semi upright position or in for legs stance in body position parallel with the ground.
 
Without carrying some weight in the hands and on the shoulder humans will never adopt upright body posture, because they will never gain enough physical strength and physical balance to be able to carry own body weight with more easiness by bipedal stance in upright body posture than by bipedal stance in semi upright body posture and in four legs stance in body posture parallel with the ground.
 
Driving force to adopt upright body posture was more comfortably carrying own body weight by doing every day activity.
 
Understanding process evolution of humans body posture enable as to understand what is optimal human’s body posture concerning health, well being and outwards appearance. (All other species maintain same body posture but by humans we can se so many different body postures.)

Understanding process of evolutions of human’s body posture will prevent backwards process in evolution of humans race.

Luka Tunjic


« Last Edit: 10/12/2006 20:46:19 by GBSB »


 

another_someone

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #1 on: 03/07/2006 02:48:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by GBSB
Young human who is adopted by animals is adopting four leg stances.

Young four legged animals adopted by humans never adopted bipedal stance.

It is to conclude that for humans it is still natural to walk on four legs.



You really did not need much of an experiment for this, you just have to look at a young baby crawling before they learn to walk.

quote:

By humans like no other species current process of evolution is visible.




Not true.

Most species actually carry a log of their evolutionary baggage with them in their early development.

If you look at the development of an embryo in the womb, you will see it passes through various phases, some of which almost look fishlike, and other phases that would be indistinguishable from many other animals.

What is unusual in humans is that when they are born they are relatively immature, and so still have a lot more development to do.  Most other animals, when they are born, the new baby is far more mature, and is far more capable of looking after itself than a human baby is.

Ofcourse, if what you are trying to suggest is that humans are not in fact genetic programmed to walk upright, but have to learn to walk upright – this is not an unreasonable statement; but it does not answer the question of how it came about that humans are even capable of walking upright.

Ofcourse, I suppose you could argue that this was a by-product of the greater maternal care that human mothers have to give their babies, although most ape mothers also give their offspring a fair amount of care, but possibly not as much as is required for human offspring.

quote:

By children, driving force to adopt bipedal stance and upright body posture is wish to imitate surrounding social environment and to be part of social environment - to be accepted by the community.



This is true of all social activity, and social learning is actually far more common than you would think amongst a good many species, although clearly they have not elevated education to the level of modern human societies.

quote:

Just standing or moving from one place to another (walking, running and jumping) on four legs in position parallel with the ground, demands some level of physical strength and physical balance of the body.

Doing any activity on two legs is much strenuous than on four legs.



It is not really that much more strenuous, in the muscular sense, although it requires more nervous input and more brain power (and a good sense of balance).

On the other hand, there is also another great difference – that we walk with our heals on the ground (unless we are running), whereas most other animals (excepting birds, which are also bipedal, and do that with far less brainpower than humans possess) walk on their toes.

quote:

It is much easier to maintain balance using four legs like all another four legs animals than by using just two legs.
Before carrying gods and tools comfortable stance was four leg stances. Carry goods in the hands and/or on the shoulder cause gain more physical strength and balance.



I suppose we can look at birds doing things the other way around, where they carry things with their feet, while they use their wings to fly.

Ants get around the problem of carrying things by having specialised pinchers for the purpose of carrying things.

Furthermore, even other apes can carry things while on the move because they walk on their knuckles, so can still grasp things even while they are walking.

Furthermore, artificial tools (the kind that are valuable enough that you would wish to hold on to them for a long time) did not arise until well after the split between human and non-human ape.

Ofcourse, we do not know if full time bipedalism arose at the same time as human and non-human apes split, but we are fairly certain that full time bipedalism arose long long before complex tool usage.

As for carrying goods on one's shoulders – humans have carried goods on the backs of other animals for millennia, and these other animals do not have an upright stance.

quote:

Understanding process evolution of humans body posture enable as to understand what is optimal human’s body posture concerning health, well being and outwards appearance. (All other species maintain same body posture but by humans we can se so many different body postures.)

Understanding process of evolutions of human’s body posture will prevent backwards process in evolution of humans race.



There is no such thing as 'backwards evolution'.  Evolution is the process by which change occurs, and that change which is beneficial is what survives.  All that survives is by nature the next step forward in evolution.

Ofcourse, when you talk about the health of the individual during their own lifetime, then understanding the proper functioning of the human body can help improve a persons personal health – but this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution.  That which is good for the individual may be diametrically opposite from the direction evolution is driving (although evolution does not give us in advance any road map that tells us where we will evolve to next).



George
 

Offline GBSB

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #2 on: 03/07/2006 13:16:09 »
Hi George,

Thank you for your great comment. I will put my best effort to reply to your comment. Only, I will need at least two days to reply. It is because I have a problem with writing. I don’t know if it is dyslexia or something else, but the fact is that I have a problem to put my thoughts into writing.
 
Once again, thank you for your constructive comment.

Luka Tunjic

 

ROBERT

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #3 on: 03/07/2006 14:54:43 »
The temperature regulation argument for human bipedalism :-

" Many mammals have complex chambers with moist linings in the nose and a heat exchange system to keep the blood cool as they pant to speed up evaporation. This was not an option for early hominids as they did not have a muzzle in which to house a cooling system. However, an upright posture would solve many of the problems, especially combined with a reduction in body hair. Upright walking means that less of the body surface is exposed directly to the sun at midday, while heat can be lost faster and any breezes are more likely to cause evaporation of sweat and so cool the body down. Retaining hair on the top of the head and perhaps the shoulders acts as a shield for the areas directly exposed to the sun.

An improved ability to control body temperature would mean that our ancestors could forage around midday, when there was less competition and fewer predators nearby. If this is correct, hair loss probably occurred relatively early in evolution, and is linked to bipedalism. "
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/human.html
 
 
« Last Edit: 03/07/2006 14:55:37 by ROBERT »
 

another_someone

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #4 on: 03/07/2006 02:48:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by GBSB
Young human who is adopted by animals is adopting four leg stances.

Young four legged animals adopted by humans never adopted bipedal stance.

It is to conclude that for humans it is still natural to walk on four legs.



You really did not need much of an experiment for this, you just have to look at a young baby crawling before they learn to walk.

quote:

By humans like no other species current process of evolution is visible.




Not true.

Most species actually carry a log of their evolutionary baggage with them in their early development.

If you look at the development of an embryo in the womb, you will see it passes through various phases, some of which almost look fishlike, and other phases that would be indistinguishable from many other animals.

What is unusual in humans is that when they are born they are relatively immature, and so still have a lot more development to do.  Most other animals, when they are born, the new baby is far more mature, and is far more capable of looking after itself than a human baby is.

Ofcourse, if what you are trying to suggest is that humans are not in fact genetic programmed to walk upright, but have to learn to walk upright – this is not an unreasonable statement; but it does not answer the question of how it came about that humans are even capable of walking upright.

Ofcourse, I suppose you could argue that this was a by-product of the greater maternal care that human mothers have to give their babies, although most ape mothers also give their offspring a fair amount of care, but possibly not as much as is required for human offspring.

quote:

By children, driving force to adopt bipedal stance and upright body posture is wish to imitate surrounding social environment and to be part of social environment - to be accepted by the community.



This is true of all social activity, and social learning is actually far more common than you would think amongst a good many species, although clearly they have not elevated education to the level of modern human societies.

quote:

Just standing or moving from one place to another (walking, running and jumping) on four legs in position parallel with the ground, demands some level of physical strength and physical balance of the body.

Doing any activity on two legs is much strenuous than on four legs.



It is not really that much more strenuous, in the muscular sense, although it requires more nervous input and more brain power (and a good sense of balance).

On the other hand, there is also another great difference – that we walk with our heals on the ground (unless we are running), whereas most other animals (excepting birds, which are also bipedal, and do that with far less brainpower than humans possess) walk on their toes.

quote:

It is much easier to maintain balance using four legs like all another four legs animals than by using just two legs.
Before carrying gods and tools comfortable stance was four leg stances. Carry goods in the hands and/or on the shoulder cause gain more physical strength and balance.



I suppose we can look at birds doing things the other way around, where they carry things with their feet, while they use their wings to fly.

Ants get around the problem of carrying things by having specialised pinchers for the purpose of carrying things.

Furthermore, even other apes can carry things while on the move because they walk on their knuckles, so can still grasp things even while they are walking.

Furthermore, artificial tools (the kind that are valuable enough that you would wish to hold on to them for a long time) did not arise until well after the split between human and non-human ape.

Ofcourse, we do not know if full time bipedalism arose at the same time as human and non-human apes split, but we are fairly certain that full time bipedalism arose long long before complex tool usage.

As for carrying goods on one's shoulders – humans have carried goods on the backs of other animals for millennia, and these other animals do not have an upright stance.

quote:

Understanding process evolution of humans body posture enable as to understand what is optimal human’s body posture concerning health, well being and outwards appearance. (All other species maintain same body posture but by humans we can se so many different body postures.)

Understanding process of evolutions of human’s body posture will prevent backwards process in evolution of humans race.



There is no such thing as 'backwards evolution'.  Evolution is the process by which change occurs, and that change which is beneficial is what survives.  All that survives is by nature the next step forward in evolution.

Ofcourse, when you talk about the health of the individual during their own lifetime, then understanding the proper functioning of the human body can help improve a persons personal health – but this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution.  That which is good for the individual may be diametrically opposite from the direction evolution is driving (although evolution does not give us in advance any road map that tells us where we will evolve to next).



George
 

Offline GBSB

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #5 on: 03/07/2006 13:16:09 »
Hi George,

Thank you for your great comment. I will put my best effort to reply to your comment. Only, I will need at least two days to reply. It is because I have a problem with writing. I don’t know if it is dyslexia or something else, but the fact is that I have a problem to put my thoughts into writing.
 
Once again, thank you for your constructive comment.

Luka Tunjic

 

ROBERT

  • Guest
Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #6 on: 03/07/2006 14:54:43 »
The temperature regulation argument for human bipedalism :-

" Many mammals have complex chambers with moist linings in the nose and a heat exchange system to keep the blood cool as they pant to speed up evaporation. This was not an option for early hominids as they did not have a muzzle in which to house a cooling system. However, an upright posture would solve many of the problems, especially combined with a reduction in body hair. Upright walking means that less of the body surface is exposed directly to the sun at midday, while heat can be lost faster and any breezes are more likely to cause evaporation of sweat and so cool the body down. Retaining hair on the top of the head and perhaps the shoulders acts as a shield for the areas directly exposed to the sun.

An improved ability to control body temperature would mean that our ancestors could forage around midday, when there was less competition and fewer predators nearby. If this is correct, hair loss probably occurred relatively early in evolution, and is linked to bipedalism. "
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/human.html
 
 
« Last Edit: 03/07/2006 14:55:37 by ROBERT »
 

Offline GBSB

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #7 on: 05/07/2006 14:44:07 »
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by GBSB
Young human who is adopted by animals is adopting four leg stances.

Young four legged animals adopted by humans never adopted bipedal stance.

It is to conclude that for humans it is still natural to walk on four legs.



You really did not need much of an experiment for this, you just have to look at a young baby crawling before they learn to walk.

Young baby crawling it doesn’t mater if it is raised by humans or by another animals. Only, a baby raised by humans will in a short period crawl and after a few months will adopt bipedal stance.
Young baby raised by animals will maintain always some form of crawling (four leg stances).

Four legged animals are created to walk on four legs. Humans are not fully created to walk on two legs, though humans are not anymore fully created to walk on four legs. But we can conclude that humans are still more created to walk on four legs than and in some smaller extant to walk on two legs.
Current process of evolution influences future creation, but to which extent is hard to say.
 
quote:
quote:

By humans like no other species current process of evolution is visible.




Not true.

Most species actually carry a log of their evolutionary baggage with them in their early development.

If you look at the development of an embryo in the womb, you will see it passes through various phases, some of which almost look fishlike, and other phases that would be indistinguishable from many other animals.

I think that any process that is happening in the womb is process of creation.  Even some process after birth belongs to process of creation, for example growth of the teeth. In many cases it is difficult to separate process of creation from process of evolution. We can observe creation as finished product of evolution.
Any change in creation influence future evolution and any change in current evolution will influence future creation.

 
quote:
What is unusual in humans is that when they are born they are relatively immature, and so still have a lot more development to do.  Most other animals, when they are born, the new baby is far more mature, and is far more capable of looking after itself than a human baby is.
I think humans are relatively immature because they are not fully created to walk on two legs and they are not fully created to walk on four legs as they used to be created before adopting bipedal stance and upright body posture. Still they are in bigger extent created to walk on four legs than on two. Humans are still in process of adaptation (process of evolution) two leg stances (bipedal stance) from four legged stance.
Before adopting bipedal stance and upright body posture, development of embryo in the womb was happening in always same position to pull of gravity.
After adopting bipedal stance and upright body posture, development of embryo is happening in one position (concerning the direction of the pull of gravity) when human walking and in another position when humans sleeping.
 
All another four legged animals are not in such extent affected by evolution and most of them are created in much bigger extent to walk on four legs

 
quote:
Ofcourse, if what you are trying to suggest is that humans are not in fact genetic programmed to walk upright, but have to learn to walk upright – this is not an unreasonable statement; but it does not answer the question of how it came about that humans are even capable of walking upright.
Early humans didn’t intend to adopt upright body posture. Driving force to carry significant loads for a significant amount of time is indirect cause of adopting upright body posture.

How it came that humans are even capable of walking upright is at best to discover if we are understand how we are today capable to walk upright and what enable as today to carry own body weight in upright position whit more easiness.



 
quote:
quote:

Just standing or moving from one place to another (walking, running and jumping) on four legs in position parallel with the ground, demands some level of physical strength and physical balance of the body.

Doing any activity on two legs is much strenuous than on four legs.



It is not really that much more strenuous, in the muscular sense, although it requires more nervous input and more brain power (and a good sense of balance).
It is still strenuous enough to unable naturally adaptation of bipedal stance and upright body posture by young children.
quote:
On the other hand, there is also another great difference – that we walk with our heals on the ground (unless we are running), whereas most other animals (excepting birds, which are also bipedal, and do that with far less brainpower than humans possess) walk on their toes.
It is interesting comparison between humans and animals. I wasn’t aware that animals walk on their toes. I can only ad that when we are running with poor physical balance we also first touching the ground with heal (effect of falling from one leg to another).

Birds are bipedal but maintaining body posture parallel with the ground(excepting legs and neck) and humans are also bipedal but maintaining upright body posture.

 
quote:
quote:

It is much easier to maintain balance using four legs like all another four legs animals than by using just two legs.
Before carrying gods and tools comfortable stance was four leg stances. Carry goods in the hands and/or on the shoulder cause gain more physical strength and balance.



I suppose we can look at birds doing things the other way around, where they carry things with their feet, while they use their wings to fly.

Ants get around the problem of carrying things by having specialised pinchers for the purpose of carrying things.
When birds and ants carry some goods they doing this activity in body posture parallel to the ground.  Humans carry goods in upright body posture.
quote:
Furthermore, even other apes can carry things while on the move because they walk on their knuckles, so can still grasp things even while they are walking.
Things what apes usually carry when they are walking are small weight compare to weight of apes and apes are able to carry small weight things without using upright stance. Another factor is that apes carry some things only for short period of time and does not carry things on the shoulders.
In this case extra strain caused by carrying some things is not big enough to cause gaining more physical strength and physical balance of the body in such extent that apes will be able  with more easiness to carry own body weight in two legged position.


 
quote:
As for carrying goods on one's shoulders – humans have carried goods on the backs of other animals for millennia, and these other animals do not have an upright stance.

From biomechanical point of view, carrying goods on the shoulder and carrying goods on the back are two completely different situations.
Carry goods on the shoulder was only possible using upright stance.
Carry goods on the back by four legged animals is possible only by using four leg stances.

For example to put load of goods on donkeys back and on top of that demand from donkey to carry this goods on two legs in upright stance, I think it will be too much.

If some another animal was enough clever and used humans to carry goods on human’s back humans will never adopt upright stance.

If humans invented backpack before adopting upright body posture than in this case humans will be still walking on four legs.




 
quote:
There is no such thing as 'backwards evolution'.
I agree with you, backwards evolution is not appropriate word to describe what I mean; appropriate word to describe is destructive evolution.
In last twenty five years, incidence of many illnesses is skyrocketing just for example incidence of diabetes is eight fold increase. In just twenty years change of shape of human body is visible; for example increased of incidence of; overweight and obesity, double chin, boldness, are just e few of many.
 
quote:
Evolution is the process by which change occurs, and that change which is beneficial is what survives.  All that survives is by nature the next step forward in evolution.


This change what we are witnessing in last twenty-five years does not make me optimistic about future of humans race. Only hope is better understanding of current evolution of the humans.


 
quote:
Quote
Ofcourse, when you talk about the health of the individual during their own lifetime, then understanding the proper functioning of the human body can help improve a persons personal health – but this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution.  That which is good for the individual may be diametrically opposite from the direction evolution is driving (although evolution does not give us in advance any road map that tells us where we will evolve to next).

Understanding the proper functioning of the human body is not possible without understanding evolution of human body posture.
 
Luka Tunjic




 

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Re: DISCOVERY- WHY HUMANS ADOPTED BIPEDAL STANCE
« Reply #7 on: 05/07/2006 14:44:07 »

 

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