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Author Topic: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?  (Read 8134 times)

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #25 on: 25/02/2013 20:59:58 »
It should be noted that there is work on making extremely light materials.
Silica Aerogel
Aerographite
Metallic Microlattice

Engineering a small, lightweight, rigid, significantly lighter than air solid is an extremely high standard to meet.  We do, of course, have blimps, but that may not be desired.

However, on Venus, with an atmosphere density 54x that of Earth, a lightweight wing structure could give a significant amount of flotation.  However, it would have to be designed to not absorb the Venus atmosphere, and not collapse under the pressure.  I.E.  You drop a helium balloon to the surface of Venus, and it will still produce lift, but it would shrink considerably. 

Consider what happens to a foam cup when attached to a submarine.



Still, one could potentially build a rigid collapsible framework like a camping tent that could have lower than atmospheric pressure inside, again most useful in a high density atmosphere.
« Last Edit: 25/02/2013 21:04:55 by CliffordK »
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #26 on: 25/02/2013 22:40:58 »
Great ideas, but not the way I was intending to path my book (also thanks for correcting me on the Iris blunder, don't know what I was thinking at the time ;D).

Like I have stated, I want the same aspects as our current earth standards (However; the demon universe or mainly the world they live on could be of lighter/heavier density).  I am fine with the hollow bones theory, but the problem I am thinking about has to do with the density/durability of these bones.

I need them to be as hard as steel, yet light enough to carry my winged demon off the ground in our world's natural dimensions.  I will list the problems bellow to try and get my dilemma off more clearly.

Unacceptable:

  • Machinery/Bionics - I am looking for a natural evolutionary answer.
  • Shifting our worlds natural order to accommodation a solution

Problems:

  • Bone Density - I can do hollow bones, but I need a way for them to be durable/light when needing to take off and dense enough to stay grounded when needed.
  • Wing Substance - I need her wings to be strong, able to get her air born, and be durable enough to say take a bullet.
  • New Question - What does a slit pupil (like a cat) actually do (view the world)?
A hard task and any kind of method (carbon structure) or anything you can think of would be of help!

Problems Possibly Solved

  • Navigation - As stated above, navigating by wind current manipulation through head (horn) movement (Still wrapping my head around this one).

p.s. I just realized how close this is getting more into the biology section rather than physics (although; still an issue with physics, but requires a biological answer).
« Last Edit: 25/02/2013 22:44:02 by Voxx »
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #27 on: 26/02/2013 01:59:10 »
Keep in mind that our bones ARE hollow. 
Just not made in the same filamentous truss form of avian bones.
They are, of course filled with marrow.

Shoot a bird's wing in the right place, and it will hardly ruffle the feathers.
Shoot it in the wrong place, it can break a bone, a critical life threatening injury.

Likewise, if you shot pin sized bullets at a bat's wing, you would have a good chance it would pass through the wing causing little harm to the animal, as long as it would not bleed significantly.

The big thing would be to either have a bullet pass through the feathers, or to puncture, but not tear the skin.  Perhaps having limited bleeding and rapid annealing of the wound.
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #28 on: 26/02/2013 02:31:34 »
That could be the process; but it is a membranous like wing substance (like a bat I guess as I have stated).  Is there any kind of fiber like material or maybe different infrastructural that would give the wing such strength, yet lightness?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #29 on: 27/02/2013 10:49:26 »
Hollow bones are amongst the strongest structures known as I get it, relative its mass. Apply a force on a hollow bone and it will 'flow' around it, to break that bone it will be much easier to twist it than just trying to 'split it' in two, which is why the worst and most usual bone breaks comes from twisting forces. And you need a denser atmosphere, lighter bone structure, maybe using some incredibly surprisingly strong nano carbon structure (filaments building that hollow bone). There is a reason why nature gives different species what they have, and it has to do with a planets mass, the atmosphere (oxygen content etc) and what the animal does, as flying. I think Don was thinking in the right way there looking back in time and place, if it is Earth you want to use? Otherwise you can use a lot of stuff :) Mini black holes rotating inside a hollow world should give a lot of exciting effects for example, depending on how stable your configuration needs to be. On the other hand there do not exist anything stable in the universe, as far as I know. All systems are non linear, if combined dynamically, observed over a time period long enough.
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #30 on: 27/02/2013 14:17:10 »
Hollow bones are amongst the strongest structures known as I get it, relative its mass. Apply a force on a hollow bone and it will 'flow' around it, to break that bone it will be much easier to twist it than just trying to 'split it' in two, which is why the worst and most usual bone breaks comes from twisting forces. And you need a denser atmosphere, lighter bone structure, maybe using some incredibly surprisingly strong nano carbon structure (filaments building that hollow bone). There is a reason why nature gives different species what they have, and it has to do with a planets mass, the atmosphere (oxygen content etc) and what the animal does, as flying. I think Don was thinking in the right way there looking back in time and place, if it is Earth you want to use? Otherwise you can use a lot of stuff :) Mini black holes rotating inside a hollow world should give a lot of exciting effects for example, depending on how stable your configuration needs to be. On the other hand there do not exist anything stable in the universe, as far as I know. All systems are non linear, if combined dynamically, observed over a time period long enough.

Thank you for the illuminance; I do intend these creatures to be able to fly "on an earth like atmosphere," but they're evolutionary point of origin can be of any kind of dimensional aspects.  I'm just trying to come up with a way for them to fly on this kind of atmosphere while having evolved on the other (make sense, and is it possible)?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #31 on: 28/02/2013 11:32:47 »
No, it's not possible, not as I can see now anyway. But maybe your creatures are planning to make it possible? In that case, will they also allow humanity to exist :) and breath, in that new atmosphere?
==

This is assuming that they indeed evolved from some denser atmosphere. The smaller you make something the stronger it becomes though, relative its mass, biologically seen. A spiders legs should break under its mass, if I got it right, when extrapolated to the size of a human.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2013 11:37:14 by yor_on »
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #32 on: 28/02/2013 19:53:55 »
No, it's not possible, not as I can see now anyway. But maybe your creatures are planning to make it possible? In that case, will they also allow humanity to exist :) and breath, in that new atmosphere?
==

This is assuming that they indeed evolved from some denser atmosphere. The smaller you make something the stronger it becomes though, relative its mass, biologically seen. A spiders legs should break under its mass, if I got it right, when extrapolated to the size of a human.

What about multiple organs?  Say like a two hearts (maybe more?) that can work through the blood flow to make the speed of the wings beat faster?  I know that the hummingbird is technically the quickest flying creature if based on body mass (blows the paragon falcon out of the water).  Not to mention the maneuverability.  Am I getting the completely wrong idea for this?
 

Offline bizerl

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #33 on: 28/02/2013 22:03:54 »
You mentioned "demonic energy". Perhaps this is somehow related to the conversion of mass to energy in which case her mass could be reduced and energy increased (although I'd imagine the reduction in mass would be negligible and the increase in energy would be astronomical).

Or perhaps she can somehow interrupt the theoretical Higgs field and become as massless as she needs to obtain flight on any planet?

I would have thought the multiple organs argument is a bit like fuelling a rocket. The more fuel you use, the heavier the rocket and the more fuel you need...

but I don't have any figures I'm sorry.
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #34 on: 01/03/2013 14:48:57 »
You mentioned "demonic energy". Perhaps this is somehow related to the conversion of mass to energy in which case her mass could be reduced and energy increased (although I'd imagine the reduction in mass would be negligible and the increase in energy would be astronomical).

Or perhaps she can somehow interrupt the theoretical Higgs field and become as massless as she needs to obtain flight on any planet?

I would have thought the multiple organs argument is a bit like fuelling a rocket. The more fuel you use, the heavier the rocket and the more fuel you need...

but I don't have any figures I'm sorry.

Helpful without flaw!  Thank you for the thought.  I haven't gotten into Higg's Field theory, but the Demonic Energy is in essence pulled from their own dimension.  So in sense it could: fuel their energy output by an enormous amount (as you said), Create a sphere of sorts that pulls them into that kind of dimensional zone (thereby causing them to have the same atmospheric properties as their home, or plain have their mass reduced because of the torrent of energy being able to lessen their density and reform it when needed to defend (of course they would fall out of the sky because of weight, but it only need be for a second to repel the attack).

What do you think is the best option (scientifically)?
 

Offline bizerl

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #35 on: 07/03/2013 23:05:14 »

Helpful without flaw!  Thank you for the thought.  I haven't gotten into Higg's Field theory, but the Demonic Energy is in essence pulled from their own dimension.  So in sense it could: fuel their energy output by an enormous amount (as you said), Create a sphere of sorts that pulls them into that kind of dimensional zone (thereby causing them to have the same atmospheric properties as their home, or plain have their mass reduced because of the torrent of energy being able to lessen their density and reform it when needed to defend (of course they would fall out of the sky because of weight, but it only need be for a second to repel the attack).

What do you think is the best option (scientifically)?

I can't comment scientifically and I think that once you get into the realm of "extra-dimensional demons" then it is difficult to do so anyway.

I can comment from the point of view of a reader of science fiction and say that the dimensional bubble idea would annoy me and make me wonder how exactly this creature would interact with the world they were in, what happens to the displaced area of the bubble and if a creature has this much ability, why is it even bothering to be in another world and fighting like a common flesh-slave (ie. us!).

If it possessed the ability to alter itself within certain confinements (again, too much power and why does it even bother using matter?) it would be much more plausible to me and create more reason to have to physically interact with it's surroundings, as well as introduce weakness which could be exploited.
 

Offline Voxx

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #36 on: 07/03/2013 23:33:53 »

Helpful without flaw!  Thank you for the thought.  I haven't gotten into Higg's Field theory, but the Demonic Energy is in essence pulled from their own dimension.  So in sense it could: fuel their energy output by an enormous amount (as you said), Create a sphere of sorts that pulls them into that kind of dimensional zone (thereby causing them to have the same atmospheric properties as their home, or plain have their mass reduced because of the torrent of energy being able to lessen their density and reform it when needed to defend (of course they would fall out of the sky because of weight, but it only need be for a second to repel the attack).

What do you think is the best option (scientifically)?

I can't comment scientifically and I think that once you get into the realm of "extra-dimensional demons" then it is difficult to do so anyway.

I can comment from the point of view of a reader of science fiction and say that the dimensional bubble idea would annoy me and make me wonder how exactly this creature would interact with the world they were in, what happens to the displaced area of the bubble and if a creature has this much ability, why is it even bothering to be in another world and fighting like a common flesh-slave (ie. us!).

If it possessed the ability to alter itself within certain confinements (again, too much power and why does it even bother using matter?) it would be much more plausible to me and create more reason to have to physically interact with it's surroundings, as well as introduce weakness which could be exploited.

Thank you for the constructive criticism; alright then, what about using this energy I have stated above as a point of medium.  It would use this energy (that is linked to it's dimension) to either enhance offensive, flight (maneuverability), and defensive properties.

Strengths:

1) This could compensate for physical weakness.
2) Has the possibility of being exponentially powerful dependent on personal energy levels (are you thinking about DBZ with this comment ???).
3) This energy could also be used as a harnessable power.

Weaknesses

1) When the energy runs out they might be considered weaker than a normal human.
2) Just being in our dimension (might) decrease their energy levels (haven't decided yet, your thoughts on this?).
3) When transferring energy from the three stated categories they are at a zero equilibrium within their energy (no energy offense, defense or maneuverability).

There could be a whole mess of things that I could go on, but I would like to know your opinion on the idea.
 

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Re: Humanoid Flight Possible At What Lengths?
« Reply #36 on: 07/03/2013 23:33:53 »

 

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