# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What is a pull force?  (Read 9396 times)

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #25 on: 28/02/2013 16:33:17 »
There is one view though from where it make sense. And that is relativity, in there you always need to compare to define a 'energy' as I'm thinking. If we now assume that any 'energy' to be measurable need a comparison between 'frames of reference' then 'energy' is a expression of your comparison between frames. But :) then there is accelerations? And 'gravity', locally perceived through it. What frame of reference am I comparing that 'local gravity' too? And if we use black boxes to define what is correct experimentally, then that gravity is just as real as the absence of gravity in ones fall from that tower.
==

The point to it is that as different motion exist there should be difference's in energy to them, but locally that won't be measurable. Although, as soon as you set two such objects in motion against each other you will find that kinetic energy existing, in a collision depending on 'motion', not just 'relative' but very real and differing with what 'real motion' we find them to have relative each other. And that I presume to be explained through the stress energy tensor, although I still have to see where I should place the energy physically.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2013 16:55:34 by yor_on »

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #26 on: 28/02/2013 17:13:16 »
There is one view though from where it make sense. And that is relativity, in there you always need to compare to define a 'energy' as I'm thinking. If we now assume that any 'energy' to be measurable need a comparison between 'frames of reference' then 'energy' is a expression of your comparison between frames. But :) then there is accelerations? And 'gravity', locally perceived through it. What frame of reference am I comparing that 'local gravity' too? And if we use black boxes to define what is correct experimentally, then that gravity is just as real as the absence of gravity in ones fall from that tower.
==

The point to it is that as different motion exist there should be difference's in energy to them, but locally that won't be measurable. Although, as soon as you set two such objects in motion against each other you will find that kinetic energy existing, in a collision depending on 'motion', not just 'relative' but very real and differing with what 'real motion' we find them to have relative each other. And that I presume to be explained through the stress energy tensor, although I still have to see where I should place the energy physically.

I suppose that the bending of space time is supposed to be the force. I think that the new results from the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer  might be interesting. I'm waiting for those results.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21495800

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #27 on: 28/02/2013 17:29:52 »
Not sure, to exist you need it to be a relation to your system. As it is not measurable locally on either of the objects, and as we define the kinetic energy as the result of their motion relative each other, then motion is energy. And as we by measuring uniform motions also find them to differ between each other, calling it relative becomes something of a misnomer to me. Motion locally exist, but the 'energy' defined to it does not.

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #28 on: 28/02/2013 17:51:25 »
Another disturbing fact is that using 'energy' to define costs for motion etc becomes quite strange in relativity. Assume you're near the speed of light, The universe you exist in will then have shrunk physically from your frame of existence. The force you expended getting to that velocity can in no way relate to a whole universe shrinking in the direction of your motion. (Meaning that if we treat it as 'forces', and 'energy expended, what would the energy needed be for compressing our known universe one light year?) And it will stay shrunk after you stopped accelerating too, and in a uniform motion you expend no energy at all.

But there must still be a relation between that velocity, and energy expended locally, and the universe you observe.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2013 17:58:47 by yor_on »

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #29 on: 28/02/2013 18:48:33 »
Another disturbing fact is that using 'energy' to define costs for motion etc becomes quite strange in relativity. Assume you're near the speed of light, The universe you exist in will then have shrunk physically from your frame of existence. The force you expended getting to that velocity can in no way relate to a whole universe shrinking in the direction of your motion. (Meaning that if we treat it as 'forces', and 'energy expended, what would the energy needed be for compressing our known universe one light year?) And it will stay shrunk after you stopped accelerating too, and in a uniform motion you expend no energy at all.

But there must still be a relation between that velocity, and energy expended locally, and the universe you observe.

With a push force you always account for energy, because a scalar force can be a stationary push force. That's how I imagine the Universe gets moving from a stationary start. I always account for all energy forces when I am thinking of physics. That's why I wanted to know if I had a missing physics for pull forces. It seems to me that to swap push to pull you have to come up with some very strange ideas.

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #30 on: 28/02/2013 19:21:52 »
Hmm.

I like relativity myself, although I doubt I understand it all, what I think I get still makes a lot of sense to me. And it turns a lot of old definitions & expressions upside down, well sort of :) We made the science we have from using a inertial point (Earth) and then define what forces we saw acting. That's from where push and pull comes too as I see it. And physics is more about vectors and magnitudes than that, as I read it. But wondering about 'flows' in non linear systems, and what makes them may be fruitful, that's what chaos mathematics is about.

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #31 on: 28/02/2013 20:32:53 »
Hmm.

I like relativity myself, although I doubt I understand it all, what I think I get still makes a lot of sense to me. And it turns a lot of old definitions & expressions upside down, well sort of :) We made the science we have from using a inertial point (Earth) and then define what forces we saw acting. That's from where push and pull comes too as I see it. And physics is more about vectors and magnitudes than that, as I read it. But wondering about 'flows' in non linear systems, and what makes them may be fruitful, that's what chaos mathematics is about.

But you have never seen a pull force. You can't see any pull forces. The pull forces are all invisible. That's why I asked about them. If you pull anything you have to have a force behind atoms, which is a push force. Only Einstein, and Newton ever invented invisible pull forces. I would never invent a force when I could use a push force which are all visible to see. I'm very surprised that scientists believe in pull forces. They always say "Use observation." But don't follow their own rules.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2013 20:38:53 by Pincho »

#### Pmb

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #32 on: 01/03/2013 00:16:33 »
Why potential energy of spring has mass, but gravitational potential energy has no mass?
Gravitational energy does have mass. Who said it doesn't? It's for that reason that Einstein's Field Equations are nonlinear.

It's also for this reason that it is sometimes said that "gravity gravitates."
« Last Edit: 01/03/2013 02:31:39 by Pmb »

#### simplified

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #33 on: 01/03/2013 17:59:43 »
Why potential energy of spring has mass, but gravitational potential energy has no mass?
Gravitational energy does have mass. Who said it doesn't? It's for that reason that Einstein's Field Equations are nonlinear.

It's also for this reason that it is sometimes said that "gravity gravitates."
Let's consider weight on spring.Counteracting forces are equal.If you think that energy of the spring creates gravitational field then you have left nothing for the weight and its force. :P

#### Pmb

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #34 on: 01/03/2013 18:40:10 »
Why potential energy of spring has mass, but gravitational potential energy has no mass?
Gravitational energy does have mass. Who said it doesn't? It's for that reason that Einstein's Field Equations are nonlinear.

It's also for this reason that it is sometimes said that "gravity gravitates."
Let's consider weight on spring.Counteracting forces are equal.If you think that energy of the spring creates gravitational field then you have left nothing for the weight and its force. :P
I don't understand your reasoning. It's a fact that a compressed spring has more mass than when the spring is not compressed and as such it weighs more. The energy in the spring also creates a gravitational field. So what do you mean "you have left nothing for the weight and its force" That has no meaning for me.

#### simplified

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #35 on: 01/03/2013 18:53:55 »
Why potential energy of spring has mass, but gravitational potential energy has no mass?
Gravitational energy does have mass. Who said it doesn't? It's for that reason that Einstein's Field Equations are nonlinear.

It's also for this reason that it is sometimes said that "gravity gravitates."
Let's consider weight on spring.Counteracting forces are equal.If you think that energy of the spring creates gravitational field then you have left nothing for the weight and its force. :P
I don't understand your reasoning. It's a fact that a compressed spring has more mass than when the spring is not compressed and as such it weighs more. The energy in the spring also creates a gravitational field. So what do you mean "you have left nothing for the weight and its force" That has no meaning for me.
Does weight have gravitational energy?

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #36 on: 01/03/2013 20:39:20 »
The spring mass is interesting to this thread. A push force is allowed to flow into the spring as energy, and sort of fill up the electrons faster, and therefore add mass. That is different to the current description of energy to mass. So here again seems to be another change in a theory based on a pull force physical interaction, compared with a flow force physical interaction. Both have a mass increase, but again the flow force seems much simpler to understand.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2013 20:42:01 by Pincho »

#### Pmb

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #37 on: 02/03/2013 03:10:02 »
Quote from: Pincho
The spring mass is interesting to this thread. A push force is allowed to flow into the spring as energy, and sort of fill up the electrons faster, and therefore add mass. That is different to the current description of energy to mass.
I quite disagree with you on this point. The spring system's mass increases as its energy increases. There are no if ands or buts about it.

Quote from: Pincho
So here again seems to be another change in a theory based on a pull force physical interaction, compared with a flow force physical interaction. Both have a mass increase, but again the flow force seems much simpler to understand.
I quite disagree with you here too. I can't even make out what you're tring to say. What exactly is yoru argument and why?

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #38 on: 02/03/2013 08:34:48 »
If energy is flow like a whirlpool, the faster the flow the more water is thrown to the outside of  the whirlpool as the hole opens a bit (negatively with gravity, so it fills up more with gravity), so the more mass can be contained in the whirlpool. So gravity would be the flow force, and the electron would be the hole. It's very simple compared with the current version.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2013 13:02:12 by Pincho »

#### JP

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #39 on: 02/03/2013 12:57:44 »
Moderator note:

Pincho, as I asked you previously, please keep your new theories to the New Theories section of the forum.  If you continue to promote your ideas of pull/push/flow/etc. forces in this thread, the moderators will move them to New Theories.

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #40 on: 02/03/2013 13:03:32 »
Moderator note:

Pincho, as I asked you previously, please keep your new theories to the New Theories section of the forum.  If you continue to promote your ideas of pull/push/flow/etc. forces in this thread, the moderators will move them to New Theories.

Well, I'm trying to compare push forces with pull forces to see the difference. It's hard to use comparisons if you are only allowed to talk about pull forces. You never solve anything by only talking Standard Model all of the time.

#### JP

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #41 on: 02/03/2013 13:12:33 »
As I said, if you want to go beyond the standard model, this is not the place to do so.  Since you're developing a new theory, please do so in New Theories.

#### Pincho

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #42 on: 02/03/2013 13:17:17 »
As I said, if you want to go beyond the standard model, this is not the place to do so.  Since you're developing a new theory, please do so in New Theories.

OK, but it still seems strange to start a new theory with the standard model, and the thread contains both.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=47087.new#new
« Last Edit: 02/03/2013 13:48:12 by Pincho »

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##### Re: What is a pull force?
« Reply #42 on: 02/03/2013 13:17:17 »