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Author Topic: Can space exist without time?  (Read 4334 times)

Offline grizelda

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Can space exist without time?
« on: 12/03/2013 10:20:25 »
When the projected "heat death" of the universe occurs many years from now, the ability for the universe to increase its entropy will cease, and this lack of change will be the end of time. If space cannot exist without time, then it will disappear and the universe will be at a "big bang" scenario, with zero entropy and time and space will start again.


 

Offline Pincho

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #1 on: 14/03/2013 20:43:26 »
What is time?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #2 on: 17/03/2013 15:15:21 »
What is time?
Change in state........................
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #3 on: 17/03/2013 15:22:57 »
When the projected "heat death" of the universe occurs many years from now, the ability for the universe to increase its entropy will cease, and this lack of change will be the end of time.

Concerning the so-called heat death; We know that virtual particles are constantly coming in and out of existence. This phenomenon is a result of the latent energy which exists everywhere in the universe. My question is this: If the heat death eventually occurs, will the energy density still be enough for virtual particles to exist. We know that energy can't be destroyed, only changed or diluted. Because energy must still be present, even if only dilute, will virtual particles still be possible? If so, then time will also still exist.
 

Offline grizelda

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #4 on: 19/03/2013 00:59:01 »
I think virtual particles can move back or forth in time, with a net result of zero. Plus they exist for less than planck units of time, so they don't add up to very much.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #5 on: 19/03/2013 01:25:06 »
I think virtual particles can move back or forth in time, with a net result of zero. Plus they exist for less than planck units of time, so they don't add up to very much.
Even though, "they don't add up to very much", this change of state represents a passage of time which contradicts your point in your opening post.
 

Offline grizelda

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #6 on: 19/03/2013 05:48:47 »
Presumably the heat death of the universe precludes particle interactions (they would increase entropy) so virtual particles would not be needed to moderate such interactions.
 

Offline Pr. snoerkel

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #7 on: 24/06/2013 16:31:20 »
Increasing entropy means that the System (in this case the Universe) goes from a state with different energy levels to a state having more equal energy levels. The difference could be - but is mostly not - converted to mechanical energy. So, it follows that for the entropy to increase, the start state and the end state must be different. In case of virtual particles, they appear and disappear - or dissappear and appear. The end state is the same as the start state and entropy does not evolve.
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #8 on: 01/07/2013 22:58:22 »
Space exists without time, it has been observed, this is the "spooky action at a distance", i.e. the event where two particles are entangled and instantly react as a system even though separated by light years of distance.  We witness the two particles separated by space, but time does not exist in the system of the two particles, it only exists in our reference frame.  As we cannot observe the causality between the two particles, the connection must exist in another dimension not governed by time in our dimension. 
 

Offline grizelda

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #9 on: 03/07/2013 06:07:37 »
Another way to look at it is that the entanglement happens in a dimension which has no space, so no time is taken to transmit the information. The dimension still has time, though, so sequential entanglements don't happen at the same time.
 Another thing I was thinking was that the vacuum energy was the result of virtual particles moderating the interaction of gravity (gravitons) on spacetime, causing the curvature of spacetime. Since the universe is getting flatter, presumably at the heat death of the universe, no interaction of gravity and spacetime will occur and the universe will be perfectly flat. This will cease the necessity for virtual particles to do their thing.
 And another thing: Presumably the  collapse of the universe into a singularity when space disappears will have an inertia which will cause inflation at the big bang. This could overcome the gravitational pull of the singularity long enough for the recycled universe to get started. As the best proof of a theory is in its predictions, I am guessing that the answer is 10E-44. I leave it to the mathematicians to uncover what the question is.
 

Offline Pr. snoerkel

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #10 on: 03/07/2013 18:31:17 »
An interesting feature, as far as I can see, of the universe in the final stage prior to heat death is that it cannot hold  much mass. If masses are separated, the masses would reach a lower energy state by being assembled and thereby the entropy would increase. If enough mass is lumped together to form a black hole, it would emit Hawking radiation in an attempt to reach a lower energy state (and higher entropy)
 

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Re: Can space exist without time?
« Reply #10 on: 03/07/2013 18:31:17 »

 

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