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Author Topic: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?  (Read 7022 times)

Offline flr

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We could sum up all that exists in this universe in a single number which is the total energy that exists in things.
As we know, the total energy is conserved, which means that all that it is in this universe (summed up in its total energy)  will exist forever and existed forever in the past.

This energy was in some form forever in the past and will be forever in the future since it is conserved.

If energy of this universe is conserved, how could universe have a beginning?
What is the big-bang then? A simple reshape of a pre-existing reality containing just as much energy as our universe?
 
« Last Edit: 24/03/2013 14:20:31 by chris »


 

Offline Bill S

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Re: energy conservation vs. beginning of the universe.
« Reply #1 on: 24/03/2013 13:58:18 »
Various multiverse theories, including "eternal" inflation would solve this; as would the idea that our Universe is a 4D shadow of a higher dimensional cosmos.   
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: energy conservation vs. beginning of the universe.
« Reply #2 on: 24/03/2013 14:03:16 »
All energy has an equal, and opposite force. All energy adds up to zero. So there was zero at the beginning, and there is zero now.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #3 on: 24/03/2013 15:47:42 »
If you accept the idea of 'emergences' connected to 'symmetries' and 'symmetry breaks' then what we see indeed is null, but null from a definition of 'something happening' outside our measurements and knowledge. The idea of symmetry breaks is closely related to the idea of temperatures. And there one thing making sense, or no sense at all :) depending on how you view it, is to relate a symmetry (break) to entropy. Then you can state, as I get it that is, that as soon as you find that equality of directions, 'equilibrium' smeared out etc, you also have a entropic state of 'sameness' that we can label 'null'. So defining it this way and then looking at temperatures we now introduce states where temperature can wander from a 'negative state' to a positive. Meaning that a negative temperature becomes 'hotter' than a 'positive temperature'. What such an idea will do to 'symmetry breaks' I'm not sure? It's one of the weirdest, yet logical things, I've read about in recent times. (thanks to GoodElf's unending curiosity and search for interesting subjects)

I'm not sure how to see that one, as you should be able to use a 'ordinary' thermometer to measure the 'negative temperature' too? Well, as I think. But logically it makes a perfect sense, although becoming something of a 'brain twister'. Negative temperature. and sorry to say, found a link to a paper made this year, but found it 'blacklisted' (?) at TNS. ( "Negative Temperatures" by Lincoln D Carr 2013)

Probably because it's a 'pay per view paper', not meant for us mere mortal to discuss :) By universities, the magazine Nature, Science, etc, etc. Thought the guys/gals had 'grown up' after the recent debate, but I was apparently wrong. So if you are a scientist and really want to be scrutinized :) Put a 'preprint' on archive X (arXiv) so we can see, and discuss, your views.
 

Offline yor_on

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Offline flr

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #5 on: 24/03/2013 16:11:27 »
All energy adds up to zero.

All matter around me has an energy content well quantified mathematically, which is not zero because matter undeniably exists. Let's assign a + sign to this energy.

To cancel all this enormous positive energy contained in the mass of objects I need a negative component of energy - whatever that means.
What is the nature of the energy component cancelling out all energy from the mass of the universe ?
And why contribute negatively (opposite in sign to mass contribution) to the total energy?
 

Offline flr

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #6 on: 24/03/2013 16:22:28 »
... what we see indeed is null, but null from a definition of 'something happening' outside our measurements and knowledge.

God also maybe happening outside our measurements and awareness/knowledge, should science care about it?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #7 on: 24/03/2013 16:32:20 »
To me God is about the question of my existence, not science per se. Science is about what we measure and then how we choose to understand it. That choosing may change with new experiments, or definitions, as we see here. But it's all about measurements to me. One very good reason to question weak experiments as they come all to close to existentialist questions (as in photon paths) for my pleasure. doesn't state that they need to be wrong, just impossible to test experimentally, once and for all. If they move from the first category to the second by experiment then they also becomes test able and so fitting what I think is a 'repeatable experiment'. You can by using probabilities and several weak experiments give all and everything a probability (sigma value if you like), but that doesn't make it a truth. We still need that repeatable experiment to give it a 'real' face, as I see it.

The rest is hypothesis's.
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #8 on: 24/03/2013 16:54:44 »
All energy adds up to zero.

All matter around me has an energy content well quantified mathematically, which is not zero because matter undeniably exists. Let's assign a + sign to this energy.

To cancel all this enormous positive energy contained in the mass of objects I need a negative component of energy - whatever that means.
What is the nature of the energy component cancelling out all energy from the mass of the universe ?
And why contribute negatively (opposite in sign to mass contribution) to the total energy?

Mass can be shifted just by changing the start value of mass. There is nothing to say that the start value of mass is correct.

If I measure my door in feet, maybe it is 7ft high. If I draw a line in the middle, and fill the room with water up to the line at 3ft 6 inches. Now I say that I am measuring the room in water depth. Now the bottom of the door is 3ft 6 inches, and the top of the door is -3ft 6 inches, because there is no water depth at all there. Now the door cancels itself out.

I am suggesting that our start position for mass should be a negative number.. for example an electron with a negative energy property should be negative mass. By just moving the measuring stick you can eliminate the energy.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #9 on: 24/03/2013 17:03:07 »
Heh, I think we need something more Pincho.
We need a reason.
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #10 on: 24/03/2013 17:09:36 »
Heh, I think we need something more Pincho.
We need a reason.

A reason for zero? Even the question is a paradox. It's like saying "We need a reason for nothing." The Universe has no reason. We just need to understand zero... two equal forces colliding.
« Last Edit: 24/03/2013 17:12:22 by Pincho »
 

Offline flr

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #11 on: 24/03/2013 17:17:02 »
Quote
I am suggesting that our start position for mass should be a negative number
No. Let's just go with concepts from standard (good) textbooks which served us well along years. 
I am unaware of concepts such as 'start value/position for mass' have any place in physics, and I don't believe it has any practical value.

What I had in mind was the rest mass.
The rest mass (or the invariant mass) is a well quantified quantity and it is frame independent ( I hope I got m_rest right).
The energy content of it is: E0 = m_rest * c^2. This well defined quantity (energy) is non-zero for the universe.

What is nature of the term that could cancel all this E0? Gravity? How? Can it be explained intuitively?   
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #12 on: 24/03/2013 17:29:07 »
In terms of symmetry you might be able to use entropy for defining it. But as this is about temperatures, and mass too have those, we find new relations there.
=
I better correct that one, it is 'particles' of rest mass that present us with a temperature, light interacting with it. Just think of the temperature in 'space' to see why.
« Last Edit: 24/03/2013 17:43:11 by yor_on »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #13 on: 24/03/2013 17:40:25 »
First I think we need a reason for that 'original symmetry break', creating the 'inflationary period'. After we've done with that one, which assuredly may take us some time :) We will go past it to, why 'symmetry breaks' at all is possible? After we done that one to our pleasure we finally will confront what lies behind that :)
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #14 on: 11/04/2013 22:09:57 »
We could sum up all that exists in this universe in a single number which is the total energy that exists in things.
As we know, the total energy is conserved, which means that all that it is in this universe (summed up in its total energy)  will exist forever and existed forever in the past.

This energy was in some form forever in the past and will be forever in the future since it is conserved.

If energy of this universe is conserved, how could universe have a beginning?
What is the big-bang then? A simple reshape of a pre-existing reality containing just as much energy as our universe?
 

When you take into account the negative contribution of gravitational potential energy and mass-energy you get zero total energy change. That's why Alan Guth calls the universe the ultimate free lunch. BTW - I met with him today to confirm this. Hell of a guy that Alan! :)
The total
 

Offline flr

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #15 on: 13/04/2013 05:24:31 »
Well, then zero energy does not means no-thing. By no-thing I mean absence of all that it is.
Actually the initial zero-energy state was not a state of no-thing but rather a state of two opposite things.

Another example: The atoms has no net charge but that does not means it has no charge, in fact it has both protons and electrons in equal quantities.

-----------
Probably the universe had no beginning, it's "creation" was actually a remodeling of a pre-existing something
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #16 on: 13/04/2013 12:43:32 »
Well, then zero energy does not means no-thing. By no-thing I mean absence of all that it is.
Actually the initial zero-energy state was not a state of no-thing but rather a state of two opposite things.

Another example: The atoms has no net charge but that does not means it has no charge, in fact it has both protons and electrons in equal quantities.

-----------
Probably the universe had no beginning, it's "creation" was actually a remodeling of a pre-existing something.
That's correct. There is also a theory that the univere tunned into existance. Also Look up "Pre-Big Bang Theory" on the internet.

There is also the possibility that the law of conservation of energy is not valid before the Big Bang or early in the phase of it. It's also possible that energy cannot be defined on a universal level.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #17 on: 13/04/2013 13:44:37 »
Quote from: Pincho
Energy is just meant to move around yes. You can interpret inflation as a stationary energy source. The points stretch distance, so Newton's law says that there should be an opposite reaction somewhere, and whatever that is it is energy.
Energy is more than just moving things around. A particle at rest in a gravitational field has energy by virtue of its position and its mass. I don't see how you can say that inflation can be interpreted as a stationary energy source. Please explain.
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #18 on: 13/04/2013 13:48:44 »
Quote from: Pincho
Energy is just meant to move around yes. You can interpret inflation as a stationary energy source. The points stretch distance, so Newton's law says that there should be an opposite reaction somewhere, and whatever that is it is energy.
Energy is more than just moving things around. A particle at rest in a gravitational field has energy by virtue of its position and its mass. I don't see how you can say that inflation can be interpreted as a stationary energy source. Please explain.

Not allowed to explain. I'm just going to delete my post instead. I forget sometimes that you are so limited to what you can say in here.
« Last Edit: 13/04/2013 13:52:25 by Pincho »
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #19 on: 13/04/2013 14:02:55 »
Quote from: Pincho
Energy is just meant to move around yes. You can interpret inflation as a stationary energy source. The points stretch distance, so Newton's law says that there should be an opposite reaction somewhere, and whatever that is it is energy.
Energy is more than just moving things around. A particle at rest in a gravitational field has energy by virtue of its position and its mass. I don't see how you can say that inflation can be interpreted as a stationary energy source. Please explain.

Not allowed to explain. I'm just going to delete my post instead. I forget sometimes that you are so limited to what you can say in here.
That's not true. If your theory is consistent with known physics then you're allowed to discuss it here, but you have to be able to justify it. If you have a new theory then you can also post that. You just have to do so in the form whose purpose it is to discuss such things. Nobody is going to try silence you. You can always send it to me in PM. I'll listen but will arue against it if I think you made an error. :)
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #20 on: 13/04/2013 14:04:55 »
Yes I am silenced. It's impossible to look on Wikipedia what science doesn't know. So I am silenced.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #21 on: 13/04/2013 14:20:16 »
Yes I am silenced. It's impossible to look on Wikipedia what science doesn't know. So I am silenced.
First of all Wikipedia is not a peer reviewed journal or a textbook so don't be 100% sure of what's written in there. Especially if you don't know the source, i.e. who wrote it. It doesn't contain the sum of all human knowledge or all physics. Not even the physics literature contains all the known physics since some of it is in the minds of scientits who haven't had a chance to write it down or think about it yet.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss physics. That means we discuss what has been observed in nature and the theories which have been proposed to describe and perhaps even explain it and which are consistent with what's been observed. That doesn't mean that it has to be in a book or online somewhere. You an discuss anything in physics that you want. What is not appropriate here is to post what is blatantly false. E.g. you can can't answer someone question on what the definition of energy is by answering with "energy is defined in the physics literature as two little girls making candy canes."

If you have a reason for saying something then post that. If it's inconsistent with what we know to be true we'll tell you. If you can't demonstate that it's true then don' claim that it's a fact of nature.

Do you have a problem doing that? And what are you claiming to be silenced on if you believe that science doesn't have an answer to something?
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #22 on: 13/04/2013 16:03:03 »
Quote
If you can't demonstate that it's true then don' claim that it's a fact of nature.

This applies to all of science so I can't answer. I can demonstrate that science is false, therefore all answers are a waste of time.
 

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Offline Pincho

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #23 on: 13/04/2013 16:17:37 »
Shrunk
Quote
If you can't demonstate that it's true then don' claim that it's a fact of nature.

This applies to all of science so I can't answer. I can demonstrate that science is false, therefore all answers are a waste of time.
I seriously doubt that. But it sounds to me that you have a different idea of what science is than everyone else. Science is not about what is true and what is false. It's about what you can observe and how to explain and describe what is observed. Nobody will ever be able to determine what is true or false. But science is not demonstrably false by any means. Science is, by definition, a method which determines by observation and experimentation, what is observed in nature. If you want truth then that's what religion is for.

However I'm all ears. If you don't believe that you can post it in a discussion forum then send it to me in PM. There's no reason you can't send anything you want to in PM.

Yeah, a load of lies, I'm not interested. Science is a religion, it is self reciprocating. That's why you are trying to get me to reply to a bunch of lies. You want to justify what I say with some made up bull, I will stay in New Theories.. thank you.
« Last Edit: 13/04/2013 16:19:49 by Pincho »
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #24 on: 13/04/2013 16:26:45 »
Quote from: Pincho
Yeah, a load of lies, I'm not interested. Science is a religion, it is self reciprocating. That's why you are trying to get me to reply to a bunch of lies. You want to justify what I say with some made up bull, I will stay in New Theories.. thank you.
Why do you think we're lying to you?

Physics says that if you drop an object on earth in a vacuum then time it takes to object to hit the ground is independent of the objects mass. Why do you think that is a lie? Anybody who lives near the museum of science in Boston can go in and watch this demonstrated. A clear tube is evaluated of air and two objects are dropped, a feather and a solid heavier object. They both fall together.

Science also says that if you jump off a building you'll fall and hit the ground unless something prevents you from falling. Why do you think that's a lie too?

It seems clear to me that what you mean when you use the term "science" is not the same thing that scientists means when they use that term.

Here is what scientists mean when they use the term "science":
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ref/what_is_science.pdf

Please post the definition of the term "science" as you believe it's defined. Or is that bullshit too?
« Last Edit: 13/04/2013 16:31:49 by Pmb »
 

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Re: If energy is conserved, how did the Universe begin?
« Reply #24 on: 13/04/2013 16:26:45 »

 

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