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Author Topic: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe  (Read 3501 times)

Offline Pmb

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If the universe is either flat or open it seems to me that there there should be an infinite amount of stars and planets. Given an infinity of them it seems possible that there is a planet identical to Earth out there somewhere just by the law of large numbers.

The cool thing about that is that there should be a planet out there with a duplicate of me as king of the world. :D


 

Offline Pincho

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #1 on: 28/03/2013 08:17:02 »
I think about that too, but a lookalike you, isn't you. You have a location, and that location is you. But you did say duplicate, I just wanted to remove the person from the duplicate.
« Last Edit: 28/03/2013 08:21:02 by Pincho »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #2 on: 28/03/2013 10:51:59 »
Don't confuse the "shape" of the universe (eg flat or hyperbolic/open) with the "size" of the universe.

Just because the geometry seems (close to) flat, does not mean that it is infinite in extent - it can be flat and finite in size. I have seen some guesstimates that there are about 1080 nucleons in the universe - a large, but still finite number.

And if the universe is finite in size, you are not guaranteed to be king of the world....
How many possible arrangements of atoms are there, and what is the probability that one of them will have a reasonable facsimile of Pmb as king?
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #3 on: 28/03/2013 11:01:07 »
Don't confuse the "shape" of the universe (eg flat or hyperbolic/open) with the "size" of the universe.

Just because the geometry seems (close to) flat, does not mean that it is infinite in extent - it can be flat and finite in size.
Where did you get that idea from? It's incorrect. Do you think that if you just traveled in a straight line that you'd run into a brick wall? :)

A flat or open universe is infinite in size. See http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Quote
If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper, and infinite in extent.
And the universe does seem to be flat.
« Last Edit: 28/03/2013 11:09:34 by Pmb »
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #4 on: 28/03/2013 11:13:20 »
Don't confuse the "shape" of the universe (eg flat or hyperbolic/open) with the "size" of the universe.

Just because the geometry seems (close to) flat, does not mean that it is infinite in extent - it can be flat and finite in size.
Where did you get that idea from? It's incorrect. I'm quite familiar with the geometry of such universes. I'm curious. Do you think that a straight line that ends at a brick wall? :)

A flat or open universe is infinite in size. See http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
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If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper, and infinite in extent.
And the universe does seem to be flat.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #5 on: 29/03/2013 16:43:19 »
Don't confuse the "shape" of the universe (eg flat or hyperbolic/open) with the "size" of the universe.

Just because the geometry seems (close to) flat, does not mean that it is infinite in extent - it can be flat and finite in size.
Where did you get that idea from? It's incorrect. I'm quite familiar with the geometry of such universes. I'm curious. Do you think that a straight line that ends at a brick wall? :)

A flat or open universe is infinite in size. See http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Quote
If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper, and infinite in extent.
And the universe does seem to be flat.
By the way, this is not a revolutionary idea. It's in The Road to Reality, by Roger Penrose.
 

Offline CD13

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #6 on: 29/03/2013 19:25:23 »
If the current vogue for multiverses is correct, how many are there?

Surely there must be an infinite number, and that produces some interesting points. There must be an infinite number of me asking this very same question on an infinite number of Naked Science Forums. Assuming time has no beginning (and cycles are circular but must have had a start point), there must have been an infinite number of advanced civilisations who learned to create an infinite number of worlds like ours.

Are they Gods now? Possibly some like the Greek Gods (argumentative and almost human) and some like the Christian and Muslim God. Or were they a one-off?

If Multiverses don't exist, how come this universe is so special?

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #7 on: 29/03/2013 19:34:26 »
You can see it two ways I think. Inside a cycle there are no starting point(s), or you, must be the one defining it. Being 'outside', looking in, it should become a linear phenomena, although still without definable beginning or end.

Meaning that you should be able to define a arrow in both cases. I like observer dependencies myself, as I can use it to question our predefined concepts of a 'common universe'. How will you define 'your universe' as being mine too, if we neither agree on time, nor location?

Isn't that what we need to be sure we see the same thing? A common coordinate system time/space :)
 

Offline CD13

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #8 on: 29/03/2013 19:43:21 »
Yor_on,

Thanks. I think I see your point, but the concept is tricky. Possibly why relativity strikes me as odd too.

So if I was elsewhere (?) the time in that other universe would have been infinitely long. I think I need a lie down.

What was the phrase? Time is something that stops everything happening at once.
 

Offline Pincho

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #9 on: 29/03/2013 19:48:08 »
Multi-verse is an interesting, but confusing subject. It must have a flaw in it somewhere, but I can't find the flaw, and all I can do is make it even more confusing...

Not only should you have infinite doppelgängers, but that number should be infinite as well, so in the first post where you are king of the world, then you have infinite Universe where you are king of the world...

... so something sounds wrong. But it's not a paradox, so what is it?

Some other, new word that is the opposite to a paradox. Something that can only happen once so nobody made a word for it...

an infinitydox..

What I mean is that I have a feeling that it is wrong, but I don't have a word to explain it.

But I do see a flaw in Bells Inequality theory. So I have the Multi-verse all separated. 
« Last Edit: 29/03/2013 19:53:41 by Pincho »
 

Offline flr

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #10 on: 30/03/2013 04:30:24 »
If the universe is either flat or open it seems to me that there there should be an infinite amount of stars and planets. Given an infinity of them it seems possible that there is a planet identical to Earth out there somewhere just by the law of large numbers.

The cool thing about that is that there should be a planet out there with a duplicate of me as king of the world. :D

In a universe infinite in time but finite in space there may be at a prior and or at a latter time a second you a king or a servant. (kind of like re-incarnation stuff).
One may argue that we loose memory of past lives , hence in this life we have no recollection/awareness of 'other us' that lived past lives. But that is kind of uninteresting.

More interesting is the case of a universe infinite in space.
Into a universe that is infinite in space one may argue that there is more than enough space (i.e. infinity) for a second you to 'occur' right now .
But if that 'other you' is exactly the same individual as this you right now, then you should have right now awareness of that second person, just like you have awareness about yourself (it's the same you after all).

Should I take the fact that my awareness of my ego (or my individuality) is unique and not extended over 2 physical bodies, as a proof after all that the universe is finite in space after all?

Or our individuality (and awareness) is something so special that even in a infinite in space universe it remains unique to one individual only?

Hmm... If the universe is infinite in space there is no reincarnation and we only live once. (i.e. if a second instantialization of me was possible , it should happen right now somewhere in a infinite universe and I would know it as it is the same me)


 

Offline Pincho

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #11 on: 30/03/2013 08:14:08 »
What does finite mean though? If the Universe is finite then it has to end in a solid. I can't see how it can end in nothing. And location is very hard to grasp. We are our location. Our location makes us who we are...

Take the Elephant Man. There has to be a version of him without this fungal disease. Then he could be married to the most beautiful woman in the world. But now he doesn't look like himself. So who are we? We are a location. Our looks probably don't count as us. I used the word doppelgänger earlier, and that is probably wrong. If the Elephant Man can look handsome, then we probably don't have to look like us. If we don't look like us, then the only remaining comparison to us is our location.

X/Y/Z doesn't make any sense to me, and looking at a rainbow I think that scale is the important part of location. So if you break location down into whatever you want it to be, that is who we are. Location is the important part of Multi-Verse. A planet Earth 2 has a new location, it could be a new scale, therefore like a rhino, and a pig it may have to change the appearance of us if scale is location.

If you can decide what location really is, then you can figure out who you are.

 
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #12 on: 30/03/2013 12:56:11 »
Muliverses don't suit me :) To me it's like a tree, constantly creating branches, becoming new trees, creating branches., becoming ....

And if each interaction is where you get a split (bifurcation) also assuming that those bifurcations only are limited by the probabilities of a superposition each time? All of those probabilities must then be realised, although you can define´it such as, as the probability of something weakens, then that universe will be further away from 'reality', with those universes having a higher probability becoming 'closer'.

It is also so that each interaction, although only containing some action-reaction on a atomic scale then are presumed to create a new 'replica' of the rest of the universe, as I gather it. And what that would do to the conservation of energy I'm not sure, or rather, I am pretty sure it will create havoc with that concept.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #13 on: 30/03/2013 13:03:55 »
actually, there may be a way to use the concept with the universe we see, but that belongs to new theories :)
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #14 on: 30/03/2013 13:15:53 »
If the universe is either flat or open it seems to me that there there should be an infinite amount of stars and planets. Given an infinity of them it seems possible that there is a planet identical to Earth out there somewhere just by the law of large numbers.

The cool thing about that is that there should be a planet out there with a duplicate of me as king of the world. :D
Maybe,...........but with an infinity of time and space, the universe also has an infinity of choices it can make. And, it's also possible that none of those choices necessarily has to resemble you or your particular life style.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2013 19:13:28 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #15 on: 30/03/2013 18:54:15 »
If the universe is either flat or open it seems to me that there there should be an infinite amount of stars and planets. Given an infinity of them it seems possible that there is a planet identical to Earth out there somewhere just by the law of large numbers.

The cool thing about that is that there should be a planet out there with a duplicate of me as king of the world. :D
Maybe,...........but with an infinity of time and space, the universe also has an infinity of choices it can make. And, it's also possible that non of those choices necessarily has to resemble you or your particular life style.
Given that I exist the chances of another is non-zero. Given that there is an infinite number of tries in an infinite number of galaxies the math makes it quite possible, if not certain for all practical purposes. It not happenening anywhere in such an infinite  universe is like you tossing a fair coin 101000000 times and it commnig up tails each and every time. Possible? Yes. Would I bet a penny on it? No.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2013 18:56:38 by Pmb »
 

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Re: Philosophical implications of a flat or open universe
« Reply #15 on: 30/03/2013 18:54:15 »

 

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