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Author Topic: How can I tell if an iron-rich meteorite is real?  (Read 17365 times)

Offline Skinner

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Hello all around! I'm new in forum.... so really hope for Your assistance! My friend has found something like real iron meteorite. Some tests shows is so and looks like too, but is not expertised and analised yet.

Very heavy, very magnetic and very tight. Small, but on the same time 14.50 kilos of weight! Cutting of some part comes really difficult and took long time. Some pictures attached...

Any advice ... is or not ?  Many thanks in advance!

P.S. Owner is interested in to sell for reasonable price.
« Last Edit: 14/04/2013 11:01:14 by chris »


 

Offline OokieWonderslug

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #1 on: 09/04/2013 22:17:05 »
Rub some acid on the cut part. It crystal patterns show up it is 100% a meteorite.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #2 on: 10/04/2013 07:59:38 »
Rub some acid on the cut part. It crystal patterns show up it is 100% a meteorite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanstätten_pattern

If the cut surface shows parallel layers which do not cross, (not created by the saw), it is not a meteorite,
( if it has layers which are all parallel it has solidified in a strong gravitational field, i.e. on Earth, not in space ).   

P.S. Owner is interested in to sell for reasonable price.

There are a LOT of phony meteorites on t'internet, caveat emptor.



IMO probability #1, (given it's being offered for sale ) a deliberate fake.
A very distant second place, pyrite ... http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m078.htm

The alleged meteorite has no regmaglypts, and a few rusted linear channel features which look man-made (disc grinder ?).

IMO the exposed shiny metal is too uniform and featureless to be typical iron meteorite.
« Last Edit: 11/04/2013 12:25:35 by RD »
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #3 on: 10/04/2013 08:58:03 »
Rub some acid on the cut part. It crystal patterns show up it is 100% a meteorite.

newbielink:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanst%C3%A4tten_pattern [nonactive]

If the cut surface shows parallel layers which do not cross, (not created by the saw), it is not a meteorite,
( if it has layers which are all parallel it has solidified in a strong gravitational field, i.e. on Earth, not in space ).   

P.S. Owner is interested in to sell for reasonable price.

There are a LOT of phony meteorites on t'internet, caveat emptor.

IMO probability #1, (given it's being offered for sale ) a deliberate fake.
A  distant second place, pyrite ... newbielink:http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/m078.htm [nonactive]
IMO the exposed shiny metal is too uniform and featureless to be an iron meteorite.

Thanks for Your answers! I think is not fake.... it has been found with metal detector and some specialists told already - is real iron meteorite, but owner can't make expertise and chemical analysis here. So he would sell.... and let someone do that, but want be sure is real irion meteorite. He asked me to help to have 100% proof of meteorite and possible selling after. I would show You more photoes... of cutted part too (after it was dunk in acid), but limit of Kb is over for my post. P.S. About shiny one, photo is taken directly after cut.
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #4 on: 10/04/2013 09:20:02 »
additional photo....
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #5 on: 10/04/2013 09:40:59 »
... I would show You more photoes... of cutted part too (after it was dunk in acid), but limit of Kb is over for my post.

additional photo....



You've only posted a low-resolution 22Kb photo, up to 128Kb is permitted here.
However your blocky 22Kb jpeg is sufficient to show your alleged meteorite has been cast in two halves which have been joined : you can clearly see the ruler-straight join running down the middle :)


Quote from: wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting#Basic_process
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting#Basic_process
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 10:14:18 by RD »
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #6 on: 10/04/2013 10:04:50 »
... I would show You more photoes... of cutted part too (after it was dunk in acid), but limit of Kb is over for my post.

additional photo....



You've only posted a low-resolution 22Kb photo, up to 128Kb is permitted here.
However your blocky 22Kb jpeg is sufficient to show your alleged meteorite has been newbielink:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Haandform-e.png/500px-Haandform-e.png [nonactive] in two halves which have been joined : you can clearly see the ruler-straight join running down the middle :)

Is not so... absolutely not. It was cutted in 2 parts.... this is the reason. Look at another picture.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #7 on: 10/04/2013 13:14:27 »
... Look at another picture.



Added for completeness : my posts now have all the pictures Skinner has posted, just in case they decide to delete their posts.

PS

Skinner's photo "phpy4r3j6AM.jpg" ( the offcut ? ) does not appear to match "AAA.jpg" in this post, they are similar, but not the same, ( made by the same artist ? ).
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 13:45:22 by RD »
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #8 on: 10/04/2013 13:38:35 »
... Look at another picture.



Added for completeness : my posts now have all the pictures Skinner has posted, just in case they decide to delete their posts.


Dear RD, so You are thinking is fake ??? Incredibly... it can or can not be meteorite.... but it can not be fake ! I hope for opinions from another users too. Many thanks in advance!
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #9 on: 10/04/2013 14:04:11 »
Dear RD,

And how about this (first small offcut)... ??? Again fake ??? C'mon!

Second offcut (bigger one) was made from 2 sides and not merge at the same line and is logical .... after that was dunked in acid for some time! Is reason why looks different!

However, Im happy to hear some opinions.... I don't know is real iron meteorite or not, only I can guaranty for 100% that is not fake !
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #10 on: 10/04/2013 14:05:23 »
Dear RD, so You are thinking is fake ??? Incredibly... it can or can not be meteorite.... but it can not be fake !

Why can it not be one of the many fake meteorites offered for sale on the internet ? [bottom of page]

To be fair it is a better than average fake: effort has gone into it's manufacture, you've not just picked up a naturally occurring rock and called it a meteorite. However the brushwork on the cut surface is only vaguely like the real McCoy, and the grooves ground into it are way too coarse and too straight to be flow lines.

"=AAA-1.jpg" (copy below) could very well be yet another item from the same production line, ( i.e. different from the first photo of an alleged meteorite in this thread ).


« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 14:36:03 by RD »
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #11 on: 10/04/2013 14:20:54 »
Dear RD, so You are thinking is fake ??? Incredibly... it can or can not be meteorite.... but it can not be fake !

newbielink:http://meteorite-identification.com/ebay/China_scam.html [nonactive] [bottom of page]

To be fair it is a better than average fake, effort has gone into it's manufacture, you've not just picked up a naturally occurring rock and called it a meteorite. However the grooves ground into it are way too coarse and too straight to be newbielink:http://geology.com/meteorites/images/iron-meteorite-flowlines-750.jpg [nonactive].

It was not offered for sale... nowhere and never ! Only i have mentioned that owner could be interested in to sell... if (when) he will be sure - is real iron meteorite... is big difference and is only reason of this topic at all - not selling but help with identification!

Another one... it was found not on the ground (overground), but in the ground and it is possible stays there for centuries!

P.S. Sorry for my english.... is not my native language!
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #12 on: 10/04/2013 14:28:16 »
Dear RD, so You are thinking is fake ??? Incredibly... it can or can not be meteorite.... but it can not be fake !

newbielink:http://meteorite-identification.com/ebay/China_scam.html [nonactive] [bottom of page]

To be fair it is a better than average fake: effort has gone into it's manufacture, you've not just picked up a naturally occurring rock and called it a meteorite. However the grooves ground into it are way too coarse and too straight to be newbielink:http://geology.com/meteorites/images/iron-meteorite-flowlines-750.jpg [nonactive].

"=AAA-1.jpg" (copy below) could very well be yet another item from the same production line, ( i.e. different from the first photo of an alleged meteorite in this thread ).



Please stop Your comments... they are not serious more. Your opinion is clear - is not meteorite, but fake.... thanks for Your opinion! Only I can say.... You are very very wrong with Your opinion (about fake). Let's see opinions from another members....
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #13 on: 10/04/2013 19:10:52 »
Please stop Your comments...

Not until I stop noticing anomalous features of your alleged meteorite, e.g. that the weathering rind is too thick and includes an abnormal concrete-grey layer below the rusty outer layer ...



it should look more like this.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 19:16:51 by RD »
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #14 on: 10/04/2013 19:33:49 »
Please stop Your comments...

Not until I stop noticing anomalous features of your alleged meteorite, e.g. that the weathering rind is too thick and includes an abnormal concrete-grey layer below the rusty outer layer ...



...and i have thinked is serious forum. fail ! Have a nice day, however!

it should look more like newbielink:http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/conception_junction_4238.jpg [nonactive].
 

Offline Skinner

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #15 on: 10/04/2013 19:46:53 »
Please stop Your comments...

Not until I stop noticing anomalous features of your alleged meteorite, e.g. that the weathering rind is too thick and includes an abnormal concrete-grey layer below the rusty outer layer ...



it should look more like newbielink:http://meteorites.wustl.edu/id/conception_junction_4238.jpg [nonactive].

What I can say, RD.... You are wrong and not competitive to speak about, because You cant discriminate real thing from fake. But it is Your problem and only! Owner decided to make expertise and analysis at Germany, so not need Your help anymore. It's sad no one more gives their opinion about. Many thanks to member - OokieWonderslug for his reply! Best wishes to all !
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #16 on: 10/04/2013 23:48:13 »
... You cant discriminate real thing from fake. ...

Professor Korotev knows more about this than you or I ...
Quote from: Professor  Randy L. Korotev
#7 If it has some kind of rind or coating, the rind or coating is probably not a fusion crust and the rock isn't a meteorite.

#8  If it's got a thick rind or coating, then it's not a meteorite.
http://meteorites.wustl.edu/realities.htm

No regmaglypts on your alleged iron meteorite, (regmaglypts are more obvious on iron meteorites than the stony ones).

Your alleged iron meteorite doesn't have the Widmanstätten pattern, just an artists impression, (brushed on).

...and i have thinked is serious forum. fail !

The failure is yours : no sale.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 23:50:04 by RD »
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #17 on: 11/04/2013 10:09:06 »
I would say this is a most bizarre rock.

I'll assume it was truly "found".

The cuts are interesting, but inconclusive.  It is difficult for the casual observer of the photos to discrene the difference between an actual grain, and a grinding artifact.  I'd encourage polishing one of the fragments.  You can grind it smooth with your angle grinder, then touch it up with a fine tooth file.  Then, if necessary, hit it with some progressively fine sandpaper, but the file should give a fairly nice finish.

As far as sand casting.  Assuming it is cast as a solid, then there may be a line around the outside indicating the joint between the molds, but the line would not be visible inside the cut.  If one was casting a hollow sphere, then one might cast two separate hemispheres, then join the two, and thus get the junction line.

If you cut this with an angle grinder, did it spark a lot?  or very little?

You might choose to measure either the specific gravity, or the density of the artifact.  That would help you determine whether it is, in fact, solid, or hollow, and may help determine the alloy.

I might consider a cannonball as a possibility, although I would expect a more spherical shape.  Keep in mind that many cannonballs are hollow, and filled with shrapnel and an explosive.  If there is any possibility that it is hollow, then it should be handled with care until it is verified safe.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #18 on: 11/04/2013 11:24:45 »
... Assuming it is cast as a solid, then there may be a line around the outside indicating the joint between the molds, but the line would not be visible inside the cut.
[bold emphasis added by me, RD]

The join line would be very obvious in the cut surface if air/steam had got trapped in the gap*, creating voids ...



[ * gap indicated by green line ].
« Last Edit: 11/04/2013 19:01:34 by RD »
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #19 on: 12/04/2013 09:42:11 »
... You might choose to measure either the specific gravity, or the density of the artifact.  That would help you determine whether it is, in fact, solid, or hollow, and may help determine the alloy..

If it really is "14.50 kilos" that is consistent with it being solid iron, rather than being hollow or with a concrete core , ( an iphone is about 12cm long , density of iron around 7.5 g·cm3 ).

Iron is less than 50 cents per pound. The price of a real 14.50 kilo iron meteorite would be in the range $5,000 - $10,000 . I'm sure Skinner will sell anyone his alleged meteorite for a fraction of that, (but for a lot more than its $15 scrap-metal value ).
« Last Edit: 12/04/2013 21:44:11 by RD »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #20 on: 12/04/2013 12:10:34 »
Unless and until we see a cleaned-up cut surface, polished and etched, there's not a lot anyone can say about it from the pictures.
The lack of Regmaglypts  is suspicious.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #21 on: 12/04/2013 13:24:16 »
Unless and until we see a cleaned-up cut surface, polished and etched, there's not a lot anyone can say about it from the pictures.

other than Widmanstätten patterns consist of straight lines, ( rather than appearing to be drawn freehand ) ...



( allegedly Skinner's photo "phpy4r3j6AM.jpg" shows an etched surface : "it was dunk in acid" [sic]  )
« Last Edit: 12/04/2013 13:35:55 by RD »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #22 on: 12/04/2013 18:06:04 »
Etched perhaps, but not cleaned and polished.
It's difficult to know if it's a mark left by the saw or what.
I am, as you might imagine, rather dubious that someone just found $10,000 but it's possible.
I certainly wouldn't write the idea off on the basis of these pictures, but I wouldn't buy it on the basis of them either.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Is this real iron meteorite pls ...???
« Reply #23 on: 13/04/2013 12:20:02 »
Now I get it : the linear channels which look like they were made with a disc-grinder, are not supposed to be flow lines,
they are another attempt to replicate the Widmanstätten pattern …

The Widmanstätten pattern is not normally visible on the exterior of an iron meteorite :
 the NASA example above has had the pattern revealed by natural sand-blasting ...
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/images/mer-20090810c.html

If Skinner's offering had been sand-blasted it would be smooth and shiny, rather than rough and rusty.
« Last Edit: 13/04/2013 16:57:57 by RD »
 

Offline JimBob

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Re: How can I tell if an iron-rich meteorite is real?
« Reply #24 on: 20/04/2013 02:15:09 »
Professional opinion ,
J.B - University of Texas 1971, Geology

real

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47464.0;attach=17677

The picture shows a poorly treated meteorite.  The saw used to cut it introduced  unwanted artifacts and failed to produce the Widmanstätten pattern that is shown as tapered dull bodies. 

THE REASON??   wrong saw and blade used.   A thick, special rock blade should be found on an OILED saw blade table saw or special rock saw.   Take a trip to a rock shop, look at saws.  Then to nearest university geology dept. Let them keep a piece and you'll be pleased

The blade marks are there due to starting and stopping the cutting.

It is real
« Last Edit: 20/04/2013 06:03:57 by JimBob »
 

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Re: How can I tell if an iron-rich meteorite is real?
« Reply #24 on: 20/04/2013 02:15:09 »

 

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