The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Is it possible to bend some space-time?  (Read 15905 times)

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« on: 15/04/2013 19:15:44 »
So there is LOTS of science FICTION on how to bend space time. Lots of different proposed (mostly bs) ideas. Now I am no nuclear physics phd albeit I do have a wealth of knowledge that applies to what I know. That last sentence is complicated seeing that I know nothing about anything nor does anyone else. We can only prove the science to a point. You don't even know that I exist. WHOO lets not go down that path eh?

Back on point. We have a lot of assumptions in science. One thing I am leaning toward is a theory about things on a nuclear level to bend space time. What if gravity is just a side effect of nuclear force? Why do we assume that it is a substance thing? Also couldn't nuclear force be just centrifugal force that slowly breaks down over (time)? If that is the case then in theory a device can be made that spins(or vibrates) at an appropriate level to create a force that replicates what happens when there is a LOT of mass. Thus bending space-time.

Let throw some holes in this theory. You people (know) much more about this subject than I do. My major is certainly not nuclear physics. I come from a theology background. From what I see there is a fundamental correlation to the hologram principle and most mythology/theology/religion/etc. there is just one thing I am missing to build upon my theory. What is actually bending space-time. Like most of theology people tend to overcomplicated things, at this point I think people, perhaps, are over complicating the science here. For example why is there creation? Well in theology there is something that most people miss, if there is a creator, that is what the creator does. Like a painter paints, the creator creates. Don't over complicate it. Its that simple. The correlation I have found in science and theology is that the hologram IS the creator. People didn't have the science then to communicate what it was they understood. They gave the hologram a persona. And I am getting off track again.

SO in short, please throw some holes in my idea. Also if there is a more (logical) answer that I can research into. Please shout it out, kind sirs and madams!

Fayt~
« Last Edit: 16/04/2013 08:46:26 by chris »


 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Lets bend some space-time!
« Reply #1 on: 15/04/2013 20:22:34 »
Nothing bends it :)
Or mass do, and rays do, and relativistic mass do too, and 'energy', and 'motion'.

First you need to tell me what 'space' is, to make me bend it :)
There are geodesics in a space, those get their definitions from the things above.

But I don't know what 'space' consist of. If it 'consist' of anything.
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Lets bend some space-time!
« Reply #2 on: 15/04/2013 20:39:51 »
What do you mean what is space? space (from my understanding) is the in between that the everything is held within.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Lets bend some space-time!
« Reply #3 on: 15/04/2013 21:20:53 »
ahh, but what is it?
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Lets bend some space-time!
« Reply #4 on: 15/04/2013 21:24:42 »
What do you mean? You are being cryptic.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Lets bend some space-time!
« Reply #5 on: 15/04/2013 21:57:40 »
Well, space is nothing, or it is something. Is it a medium in where things propagate or is it just empty? An aether was one try for a (vacuum) medium, but the MM experiment killed that one. But as you say, it differs matter from matter, and it has a distance, as far as we can measure existing in four dimensions. Each point of a vacuum can be defined by those four, time and three other. Classically it is a 'nothing', presenting you with no resistance. Quantum mechanically it may be seen to contain energies, and bosons, as the Higg boson. That, although unmeasurable to us directly, still define the Inertia of a object, and possibly also the mass.

And in Relativity 'gravity' is nothing more than a preferred direction, as I think though. But Pete would give you a more solid answer there. But a lot of it hangs together with what ideas you have defining a vacuum.
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #6 on: 16/04/2013 09:33:18 »
Well, for my book I need to come up with a logical/scientific answer that explains how it is possible to;

have a portal on a planet that all the inhabitants go through to another to end up on another planet which also has a portal on it which the inhabitants come through. I also need to show how it is possible for a planet to have a portal at its core that is not accessible until the planet no longer exists (ie blows up).

Any thoughts?
 

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8132
  • Thanked: 53 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #7 on: 16/04/2013 09:45:28 »
... have a portal on a planet that all the inhabitants go through to another to end up on another planet which also has a portal on it which the inhabitants come through...
 
Any thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole  [ hypothetical ]
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #8 on: 16/04/2013 15:59:38 »
You will need a lot of 'exotic matter' for a wormhole, to keep it from breaking up, also it is a function of gravity as I remember, which makes it a 'hollow world' maybe? You can always place some black holes in a stable configuration inside it, two might work. Maybe one would work better, placed in a perfect center,  'rotating' as being 'at rest' with the 'Earth shell'? I'm not sure there. You will have to assume a ideal perfect sphere, I think, to begin with which should make visitors rather suspicious.
=

Why not use a 'quantum machine' breaking you down into quanta, connected via entanglement to some other place, that then retrieve the information? It will need to use light speed though to send the code for that exact 'copy' that will be built up, each time. So those who use it will not only be lost in space, but also in time. And then it also becomes a question if toughts, and the way you think, will be the same? Although that one is highly philosophical.
« Last Edit: 16/04/2013 16:11:38 by yor_on »
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #9 on: 16/04/2013 17:28:58 »
I have posted a TOET (theory of every thing) that I think explains pretty well what gravity is and what matter is. just go to the new theory section to read it. it's quite simple, just think of it like this. 

Imagine a pond, when you throw a rock into the water you displace it and as a result you get waves in exactly the same way the big bang displaced space to get waves of light when light forms a photon cloud/electron/quark it bends space like a whirlpool inward this effect is gravity.
 

Offline imatfaal

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2787
  • rouge moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #10 on: 16/04/2013 17:52:33 »
ScientificSorcerer

No more links or adverts to your idea in New Theories please. 

many thanks
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #11 on: 16/04/2013 19:06:31 »
I have posted a TOET (theory of every thing) that I think explains pretty well what gravity is and what matter is. just go to the new theory section to read it. it's quite simple, just think of it like this. 

Imagine a pond, when you throw a rock into the water you displace it and as a result you get waves in exactly the same way the big bang displaced space to get waves of light when light forms a photon cloud/electron/quark it bends space like a whirlpool inward this effect is gravity.

that doesn't work on many levels. i really don't have the time to point out all of the reasons why it does not work at all. google leonard susskind (spelling) and hologram principle. if you understand theology the way i do. that makes way more sense and it answers way more questions than it asks.
-----------
i am dealing with the issue of mass gaining more mass at as the speed increases closer to the speed of light. where does the mass get more mass? does it suck in more matter and condenses it? etc-
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #12 on: 16/04/2013 19:06:51 »
ScientificSorcerer

No more links or adverts to your idea in New Theories please. 

many thanks

thanks :)
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #13 on: 16/04/2013 19:21:24 »
You will need a lot of 'exotic matter' for a wormhole, to keep it from breaking up, also it is a function of gravity as I remember, which makes it a 'hollow world' maybe? You can always place some black holes in a stable configuration inside it, two might work. Maybe one would work better, placed in a perfect center,  'rotating' as being 'at rest' with the 'Earth shell'? I'm not sure there. You will have to assume a ideal perfect sphere, I think, to begin with which should make visitors rather suspicious.
=

Why not use a 'quantum machine' breaking you down into quanta, connected via entanglement to some other place, that then retrieve the information? It will need to use light speed though to send the code for that exact 'copy' that will be built up, each time. So those who use it will not only be lost in space, but also in time. And then it also becomes a question if toughts, and the way you think, will be the same? Although that one is highly philosophical.

i am not sure gravity isn't much like centrifugal force which is not a true force. Rather, its a fictitious force that you (or an object) feels when moving in a circle. However, there is something call centriPETAL force. This is the actual force required to keep an object in a circular motion and points toward the axis of rotation.
 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #14 on: 16/04/2013 19:45:57 »
So there is LOTS of science FICTION on how to bend space time. Lots of different proposed (mostly bs) ideas. Now I am no nuclear physics phd albeit I do have a wealth of knowledge that applies to what I know. That last sentence is complicated seeing that I know nothing about anything nor does anyone else. We can only prove the science to a point. You don't even know that I exist. WHOO lets not go down that path eh?

Back on point. We have a lot of assumptions in science. One thing I am leaning toward is a theory about things on a nuclear level to bend space time. What if gravity is just a side effect of nuclear force? Why do we assume that it is a substance thing? Also couldn't nuclear force be just centrifugal force that slowly breaks down over (time)? If that is the case then in theory a device can be made that spins(or vibrates) at an appropriate level to create a force that replicates what happens when there is a LOT of mass. Thus bending space-time.

Let throw some holes in this theory. You people (know) much more about this subject than I do. My major is certainly not nuclear physics. I come from a theology background. From what I see there is a fundamental correlation to the hologram principle and most mythology/theology/religion/etc. there is just one thing I am missing to build upon my theory. What is actually bending space-time. Like most of theology people tend to overcomplicated things, at this point I think people, perhaps, are over complicating the science here. For example why is there creation? Well in theology there is something that most people miss, if there is a creator, that is what the creator does. Like a painter paints, the creator creates. Don't over complicate it. Its that simple. The correlation I have found in science and theology is that the hologram IS the creator. People didn't have the science then to communicate what it was they understood. They gave the hologram a persona. And I am getting off track again.

SO in short, please throw some holes in my idea. Also if there is a more (logical) answer that I can research into. Please shout it out, kind sirs and madams!


Sorry, but could you formulate your question/idea in more direct terms? I sincerely haven't grasped which is exactly.
 

Offline flr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #15 on: 16/04/2013 20:10:02 »
i am dealing with the issue of mass gaining more mass at as the speed increases closer to the speed of light. where does the mass get more mass? does it suck in more matter and condenses it? etc-

It is not that 'mass get more mass'.
The energy and momentum of particles are frame dependent.

E^2 = (m0*c^2)^2 + (p*c)^2

E and (pc) are frame dependent, i.e. the amount of "E" a "p*c"you measure depends on your speed relative to object that you measure it.
The rest mass m0 and the energy associated with it E0 = m0*c^2 is frame independent, and the rest mass does not 'gain more mass'.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #16 on: 16/04/2013 20:22:34 »
Are you suggesting that gravity might be a centripetal force?
That one I would like to hear :)

Go for it, it may make a interesting SF, or maybe fantasy?
I read both kinds myself.
 

Offline Pmb

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1838
  • Physicist
    • View Profile
    • New England Science Constortium
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #17 on: 16/04/2013 20:32:36 »
... I do have a wealth of knowledge that applies to what I know.
What exactly does that mean. You just said that you "know what you know" which we all do.

Quote
We can only prove the science to a point.
Science is all about making observations, developing theories to describe what we observe then making predictions based on those theories and then testing those theories. We never prove theories.  Science  can't do that.

Quote
We have a lot of assumptions in science.
Such assumptions are referred to as either laws, principles or postulates.

Quote
One thing I am leaning toward is a theory about things on a nuclear level to bend space time. What if gravity is just a side effect of nuclear force?
Nope. The nuclear force is very different in nature to gravity. It's incorrect to think of force as bending spacetime. The source of spacetime curvature is mass. The effect of spacetime curvature does not extend outside the nucleus. It's a short range force, quite unlike gravity. Also light is ueffected by the strong force whereas its defleected by mass.

Quote
Why do we assume that it is a substance thing?
Nobody assumes that spacetime is a substance. We use the term "fabric of spacetime" merely as an analogy to visualize it. It has no substance and that is well known by relativists.

No observation made in nature is consistent with what you suggested.
 

Offline Pmb

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1838
  • Physicist
    • View Profile
    • New England Science Constortium
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #18 on: 16/04/2013 20:36:03 »
Are you suggesting that gravity might be a centripetal force?
That one I would like to hear :)

Go for it, it may make a interesting SF, or maybe fantasy?
I read both kinds myself.
The centrifugal force is an inertial force which is of the same nature of a gravitational force. However centripetal forces do not curve spacetime. Then again it take more than the presence of a gravitational force to curve spacetime. It requires at least having gradients in the gravitational force. Curved spacetime is a complicated thing.
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #19 on: 16/04/2013 21:34:03 »
how does nasa intend on doing it with that oval space-ship within their holdings then?

"Are you suggesting that gravity might be a centripetal force?
That one I would like to hear :)

Go for it, it may make a interesting SF, or maybe fantasy?
I read both kinds myself."

exactly- that is my idea. just- you worded it way better. i don't speak science as much as i do theology. i just found a potential problem that i will have to confront and would like to eliminate it by giving a scientific explanation of it.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #20 on: 16/04/2013 21:43:24 »
Well, it's as Pete says, it can't be a centripetal force. But that doesn't mean that you can't construct a universe from your idea. As a writer it will be yours :) and I see nothing stopping you from constructing it. Unless you crave it to be a 'hard core' SF in which case you need to adapt to what science know and defines.
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #21 on: 17/04/2013 09:23:02 »
Well, it's as Pete says, it can't be a centripetal force. But that doesn't mean that you can't construct a universe from your idea. As a writer it will be yours :) and I see nothing stopping you from constructing it. Unless you crave it to be a 'hard core' SF in which case you need to adapt to what science know and defines.

after some further reading - yup- i was wrong there. if the force is just the string holding the ball from flying off than yup i was wrong. i may look into taking advantage of quantum entanglement, and i need to read general relativity again- its been too many years since i have brushed up on it thoroughly.

any other ideas?
 

Offline faytmorgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #22 on: 17/04/2013 09:53:19 »
Check this out-
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/140550-first-teleportation-of-macroscopic-objects-leads-the-way-to-quantum-internet [nofollow]

if we can transport this small information- perhaps when tech becomes more pronounced we can attempt transporting a plant seed or been then the plant then an insect then an animal (a rat) then maybe even a human being. or am i just way off base here?

can anyone give me a better explanation on how this work exactly? as in how do they or what do they use to entangle the bits?
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #23 on: 17/04/2013 13:44:58 »
Assume you want to port state A to some other place. You get two entangled objects, B1 and B2. One you keep, the other you deliver somehow to the place where you want to replicate state A. You can't measure on state A directly as that will interfere with its state, changing it. So what you do is to measure on the relation state A has to state B1, for example the way state B1:s spin has to state A, around some axis. Knowing the relation you haven't measured state A directly. but you have a relation that will be just as true for your friend 'over there' that you sent the entangled B2 too. The only thing he will need is a new 'photon' State C that he then put in the exact same relation to B2 that your B1 have to state A.

But it is indeed measuring involved, although on the relation between those particles state. And what you should end up with is two exactly correlated photons both in State A. But it is a tricky one. Check up Charles Bennet (1993) IBM if you're interested of it.

It's not a 'startrek procedure' but a indirect way to create a relation between what you measure on and what you want to copy, giving you as 'exact' a copy on the other side we possibly can imagine. And it opens for discussion as it builds on a assumption that I can measure on something being in a relation to something else without changing the relation, or else assuming that even if I do change the relation, I still won't have changed  the original 'particle' which state I want to copy to the other side. Also, the sending of this information, or code, will still have to be done under light speed (in a vacuum)
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12001
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #24 on: 17/04/2013 13:55:32 »
And the entanglement in this case can be done with a beamsplitter, separating one photon into two, down converting the original photons energy 1 to two photons of .5, in where the subsequent photons now will have opposite polarizations (spin) and so be 'entangled'. The weird thing about entanglements are that they are supposed to instantly set their states as fast as you measure on one. Either you can assume some hidden parameter creating the 'spins', at their creation? Or you can assume a entanglement to ignore distance and light speed.

Also, there is no way for you to know what the spin will be on the particle you measure on, before the measurement. It has a 50% chance to be 'up' or 'down'. But no matter what polarization/spin it is found to be, the other particle will 'know' and set the opposite.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is it possible to bend some space-time?
« Reply #24 on: 17/04/2013 13:55:32 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums