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Author Topic: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?  (Read 23768 times)

Offline thedoc

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Anton Lukas  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe. There was no space, matter. Time started then.

I do have a lot of questions. Can you answer some of them?

When was matter created?
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
How can something be created from nothing?

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 30/05/2013 12:30:01 by _system »


 

Offline Bill S

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Hi Anton.

As a non-scientist I will not attempt the first three questions, but I believe the answer to the last one is: "It can't be!". 
In all the things I have read on this subject (those I could understand, anyway) the nothing from which the Universe is supposed to have come, turns out to be something. 
 

Offline flr

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Quote
the nothing from which the Universe is supposed to have come, turns out to be something.
I think this has to do with a misunderstanding  of the concept of nothing.
I use to thing at the concept of "nothing" as a logical negation of all that it is.

In my opinion something cannot be created from nothing and there is no such thing like "ex-nihilis" creation.
Big-bang is (in my opinion) a remodeling of a previously existing reality.
According to the conservation of energy (or 1st principle of thermodynamics) all that exists existed forever and will exist forever.

If the total energy of universe is zero (negative energy due to gravity compensate exactly the mc^2 energy in things), then zero total energy does not define a state of nothing.
 

Offline yor_on

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I think it has to do with presumptions. Those change with new findings, creating new definitions. But we all have them, and we all define a universe from it. The hope of science is that it at some stage will be able to give us a coherent answer to it all. That's what science strive for, testing, defining hypothesis's, testing again, defining new ones. In the end we might find a way to describe it that will make sense, but we will probably need new words for it.  With words come new ways to think.
 

Offline David Cooper

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In science, anything that can't be detected is officially regarded as "nothing". That doesn't mean it's a literal nothing, but just that it's beyond the boundaries of what can currently be explored.
 

Offline Pmb

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In science, anything that can't be detected is officially regarded as "nothing".
That's not quite true. If somethings existance can be inferred from something else then it's called something other than "nothing." For example: quarks are said to exist even thought its impossible to observe a single quark when its not bound to others. Virtual particles are said to exist too but they can't be observed directly.
 

Offline Anton Lukas

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Thank you a lot for your suggestions to my last question regarding "the something from nothing"
But what about the following:

Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Or was all the matter created in the big bang?
Or was part of the engergy converted into matter afterward?
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?

 

Offline insideyourmind

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Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Or was all the matter created in the big bang?
Or was part of the energy converted into matter afterward?

When theres so great amount of pure energy and gravity, its impossible for anything to form at that point. When universe gains size and conditions is no longer so extreme, particles begins to form. Amount of matter can be increasing and decreasing but the overall amount of energy in our universe is not increasing or decreasing.
« Last Edit: 28/05/2013 13:46:40 by insideyourmind »
 

Offline yor_on

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I think you can define a universe several ways. As being 'closed' but closed how? Closed by our limitations of observation and definitions, or 'closed' as in following a geodesic finding it to lead back to where you started? Maybe both are valid descriptions, it all depends on where you stand looking at it.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Anton Lukas  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe.
Wrong. The universe has no time of occurrence in contrast to its materialized part. It existed before the alleged big boom which belongs to number of scientific myths.
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There was no space, matter.
Nope. Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter, however was not empty. It had to contain something that we can call primordial pre-matter (ether or dark matter).
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Time started then.
Time belongs to synonyms of motion; change... Time autonomously does not exist. As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.
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I do have a lot of questions. Can you answer some of them?

When was matter created?
Some 14 billion years ago.
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Is the amount of matter still increasing?
No way.
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Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
No. However I would call it ether or dark matter, as energy must have its owner - spontaneously does not exist.
Quote
How can something be created from nothing?
There is no such feasibility.
 

Offline flr

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #10 on: 30/05/2013 18:11:17 »
Quote
Nope. Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter, however was not empty. It had to contain something that we can call primordial pre-matter (ether or dark matter).
..............
Time belongs to synonyms of motion; change... Time autonomously does not exist. As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

If time is an emerging concept (from motion) rather than a reality in itself, then why not space would be a concept emerging from the order of the things (matter) in universe rather than an 'autonomous' reality?

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Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Quote
No way.

The amount of the matter increased suddenly at some point in the past, but it might be that now it is slowly decreasing because protons may be decomposing (half-time of order 10^33 years according to some theories). Free neutrons can quickly decompose (half-time of order few weeks). The end product is photon, which is though to have zero invariant mass. If so, the universe is slowly loosing mass and in 10^100 years the universe may not have protons to support chemistry.

Note that the total energy should stays the same (I have a strong belief in the conservation of energy, not sure why...), what changes is how energy is carried: by non-zero rest mass objects or by photons.

If the final state of universe will be just a soup of photons, how will time and space be 'defined' in that kind of universe?

« Last Edit: 30/05/2013 18:13:38 by flr »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #11 on: 30/05/2013 19:10:39 »
You know, I'm not sure how matter would break down in that final thermodynamical equilibrium?

How?
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #12 on: 30/05/2013 21:14:08 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

Surely (whatever the story), the formation of matter must have constituted a change.  How can you have change without time?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #13 on: 30/05/2013 22:59:55 »
Is the start of time itself a change (going from no time to time in no time at all) ? 
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #14 on: 30/05/2013 23:33:09 »
Surely, going from no time to time is a very big change. Suggesting that this could happen "in no time at all" raises some interesting possibilities/questions and would undoubtedly involve QM, which would then have to be a preexisting factor.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #15 on: 30/05/2013 23:44:30 »
Reminds me of those deep eastern wisdoms dlorde :)
Should be possible to remake into a koan of sorts
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #16 on: 01/06/2013 09:07:07 »

If time is an emerging concept (from motion) rather than a reality in itself, then why not space would be a concept emerging from the order of the things (matter) in universe rather than an 'autonomous' reality?
Time (of what?) is not emerging concept from motion. They are synonyms, feature of matter. I do not see any factor to be responsible for emergence of space. It must be primordial.
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The amount of the matter increased suddenly at some point in the past, but it might be that now it is slowly decreasing because protons may be decomposing (half-time of order 10^33 years according to some theories). Free neutrons can quickly decompose (half-time of order few weeks). The end product is photon, which is though to have zero invariant mass. If so, the universe is slowly loosing mass and in 10^100 years the universe may not have protons to support chemistry.
I don't think so. Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving. The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporte" from it.
Quote

Note that the total energy should stays the same (I have a strong belief in the conservation of energy, not sure why...), what changes is how energy is carried: by non-zero rest mass objects or by photons.
I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.
Quote
If the final state of universe will be just a soup of photons, how will time and space be 'defined' in that kind of universe?
I don't think it could happen. But when you ask about time, you should indicate "time of what?". Space should be understood as the universal "container" of all physical entities.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #17 on: 01/06/2013 09:29:26 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

Surely (whatever the story), the formation of matter must have constituted a change.  How can you have change without time?

Well, I assume that the mother of matter was primordial ether. The emergence of matter was preceded by its accidental disturbance (= motion) in its density in some point of the universe. Thus turning ether into matter (initially led to formation of the simplest element, i.e. hydrogen) can be treated as the beginning of material part of the universe, approximated time of which we obviously know.   
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #18 on: 01/06/2013 09:41:06 »
Is the start of time itself a change (going from no time to time in no time at all) ?

Question about birth of time is as logical as questions about start of motion, start of change. You need to be more specific - motion of what?; change of what?

On the other hand, before emergence of materialized part of the universe notion of "time" loses its sense. No motion (of something), no changes (of something) means no time (of something).
 

lean bean

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #19 on: 01/06/2013 19:32:26 »
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it.

If your saying time only started when matter formed, then when did your space exist if there was no time?

Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter,
How do you explain the concept of existence without using the concept of time?

« Last Edit: 01/06/2013 19:36:02 by lean bean »
 

Offline flr

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #20 on: 01/06/2013 22:01:31 »
Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving.


I thought the issue of 'ether' was actually solved by scientists (physics do just well without it).

I would agree with some view that after big bang the energy was converted to matter. Which matter from now on may slowly decompose back to energy (photons).

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1) I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.

Any rationale for that? A link or something that would justify why total energy of a closed system is not conserved?

Quote
2) The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporte" from it.

Note that your sentences 1) and 2) above may be seen as contradicting each other.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2013 22:03:27 by flr »
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #21 on: 02/06/2013 23:15:07 »
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it.
Quote
If your saying time only started when matter formed, then when did your space exist if there was no time?
Space is primordial (it's volume unchanged - according to my speculative calculation R of the universe amounts minimum 6.2*10^117 l.y.). 

Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter,
How do you explain the concept of existence without using the concept of time?
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter). Tell me then how could you measure time of ...(what?). What would mean in such circumstances 5 minutes, 10 years or 100 billion of years. Time loses its sense. It was just such a state of the universe (you may call it timelessness). If there is no motion of (something) / no change (of something) its time = 0
« Last Edit: 02/06/2013 23:16:52 by niebieskieucho »
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #22 on: 03/06/2013 00:00:16 »
Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving.

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I thought the issue of 'ether' was actually solved by scientists (physics do just well without it).
I don't agree with such point of view. No ether = no conductivity. Empty space would be a perfect insulator. Physical entities couldn't then feel themselves (interact). 
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I would agree with some view that after big bang the energy was converted to matter. Which matter from now on may slowly decompose back to energy (photons).
There was no big bang. Matter was formed in other way. Matter is indestructible. It only changes its form.
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1) I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.
Quote
Any rationale for that? A link or something that would justify why total energy of a closed system is not conserved?
Yeah. There is a material about it, but unfortunately in Polish (nasa_ktp.republika.pl/ZZE_nie_istnieje.html). Example in one sentence: In magnets is asymmetry of forces between poles of attraction and repulsion.
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2) The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporate" from it.
Quote
Note that your sentences 1) and 2) above may be seen as contradicting each other.
No, because energy must have its owner. It doesn't roam on its own.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 00:02:23 by niebieskieucho »
 

Offline bizerl

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #23 on: 03/06/2013 04:59:15 »
okay, my two cents. I guess this is all philosophical as I was lead to believe that our current mainstream scientific theories are only relevant for the moments after the big bang, and it's only through extrapolation that we are left with a singularity containing the entire known universe.

I've always seen this moment as more a location on a time axis that can be labelled "zero", a bit like the north pole, so saying there was nothing before the big bang is a bit like saying "but what happens past the north pole?"

I've also had the thought that it seems there is a gradual shift from pure energy into pure matter. If the universe is indeed expanding than eventually all the suns will stop burning and all the energy of the universe will be locked up in cold matter. I wonder if this itself will trigger some new epoch on a quantum level as the journey towards absolute zero competes with the uncertainty principle.

Of course the energy is still there, just located at a different point on the time axis.

Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of a physics degree so they are all musings in my head.
 

lean bean

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #24 on: 03/06/2013 13:35:07 »
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter).
I got no idea what you mean by ether here? What is this ether that it may be disturbed?
I know of the idea of fundamental particle fields, but these particle fields exist in time.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 13:52:08 by lean bean »
 

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #24 on: 03/06/2013 13:35:07 »

 

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