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Author Topic: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?  (Read 23931 times)

Offline acecharly

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #25 on: 03/06/2013 15:44:37 »
Some of my thoughts on this as an armchair physisist ....everything was created 13.8 billion years ago apparently but why not 100 billion years ago or any other number in my opinion its always been here its just that it has not allways been ticking, time to me means nothing more than a way to as how a change of state between two points when matter is present. As for is matter still being created then yes it is I'd say scientists have created matter themselves. I think matter/energy are infinite, i fall back to what I said about time why would there be a set amount there's simply as much as there currently is due to whatever happened to make it which I have no ideas for but further to this I can only assume whatever did could easily create another batch at will. Oh and as for this ether stuff sounds a little bit 19th century for me. On this note will leave you all to take aim and shoot me down.

Ace
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #26 on: 03/06/2013 17:12:47 »
What was the question again Ace?

If you're really asking why 13.8 billion years has elapsed since the big bang, the anthropic answer is that it takes roughly that long for suitable conditions to arise to support the development of life, and for life to develop enough to ask the question. You need at least two generations of stars, probably more, so that the heavy elements formed by the early generation(s) of supernovas can seed the planets forming round the later generations. Then you need to wait for the planetary system to quieten down and for a sufficient number of comets to deliver enough water (if that was the mechanism for it). There are probably a number of other requirements, such as development of atmosphere, reduction in the flux of harmful cosmic radiation, and so-on.

If we assume there was something before the big bang, I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea how long 'before the big bang' would have lasted, or if it means anything to ask.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 17:18:42 by dlorde »
 

lean bean

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #27 on: 03/06/2013 19:42:16 »
If we assume there was something before the big bang, I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea how long 'before the big bang' would have lasted, or if it means anything to ask.
I can sort of pretend to understand numerous universes (multiverse) being constantly created in time...the past, now and future. And again, I can pretend to understand how space and time started in the standard big bang model.
But, I'm fuddled about Niebieskieucho's ether existing in no time and having the capacity to be disturbed.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #28 on: 03/06/2013 22:43:33 »
... I'm fuddled about Niebieskieucho's ether existing in no time and having the capacity to be disturbed.
Yup, me too.
 

Offline acecharly

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #29 on: 04/06/2013 11:35:02 »
When we say time didnt exist it probably means this universe had not been born but time was flowing nicely from where ever it came from.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #30 on: 04/06/2013 20:19:51 »
okay, my two cents. I guess this is all philosophical as I was lead to believe that our current mainstream scientific theories are only relevant for the moments after the big bang, and it's only through extrapolation that we are left with a singularity containing the entire known universe.
Cosmology is based mainly on philosophy, because conditions that led to emergence of matter are not feasible to check or recreate. The mainstream science theory doesn't look well, due to many reasons. Anyway, it's just theory and that is why it can be falsified.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #31 on: 04/06/2013 20:30:01 »
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter).
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I got no idea what you mean by ether here? What is this ether that it may be disturbed?
I mean elementary building block of all forms of matter (called also dark matter) in word, pre-matter. I have already mentioned earlier, that the disturbance of ether was caused by its accidental density in some point of the universe (its of course my own inference).
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I know of the idea of fundamental particle fields, but these particle fields exist in time.
How do you undersand "exists in time"? It could be understood similarly as "exists in motion". Motion of what?
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #32 on: 04/06/2013 20:44:04 »
Some of my thoughts on this as an armchair physisist ....everything was created 13.8 billion years ago apparently but why not 100 billion years ago or any other number in my opinion its always been here its just that it has not allways been ticking, time to me means nothing more than a way to as how a change of state between two points when matter is present.
In my opinion matter emerged accidentaly and it might have appeard earlier, later or never. Similarly as accidental is equality of surface of the Moon disc to the surface of the Sun disk during the Sun eclipse.
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As for is matter still being created then yes it is I'd say scientists have created matter themselves.
It's impossible. Have you got any details? We are "contaminated" with matter and cannot crerate matter.
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I think matter/energy are infinite,
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.
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i fall back to what I said about time why would there be a set amount there's simply as much as there currently is due to whatever happened to make it which I have no ideas for but further to this I can only assume whatever did could easily create another batch at will. Oh and as for this ether stuff sounds a little bit 19th century for me. On this note will leave you all to take aim and shoot me down.
The beginning of the passage is not clear to me. As refers to ether, it's indispensable to make conductivity of space.


 

Offline Bill S

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #33 on: 04/06/2013 21:47:23 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #34 on: 05/06/2013 00:06:47 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?

It's simple. The universe belongs to reality. All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 00:09:30 by niebieskieucho »
 

Offline acecharly

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #35 on: 05/06/2013 09:07:29 »
The
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?

It's simple. The universe belongs to reality. All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.

Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 09:10:28 by acecharly »
 

lean bean

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #36 on: 05/06/2013 09:54:11 »
how do you understand "exists in time"? It could be understood similarly as "exists in motion". Motion of what?
You make the point of time being movement, yes, I think most know of this idea.
It’s your idea of an ether that doesn’t move which is not so clear to me.

You don’t explain how can you have a ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?

Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed),
So you have movment in your ether that causes accidental occurrences or density changes?
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 10:02:50 by lean bean »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #37 on: 05/06/2013 11:25:34 »
All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #38 on: 05/06/2013 17:13:53 »
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acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

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dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
 

Offline acecharly

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #39 on: 05/06/2013 18:03:39 »
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acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

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dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

All thoughts surrounding an infinite universe are currently conceptual and without questioning we would never know that this will hold true. This conversation actully reminds me of an old Chinese proverb about a frog that lived in a well and who believed that the only sky above was what he could see as he looked up.
 

lean bean

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #40 on: 05/06/2013 19:17:52 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
Well, I'm having trouble 'conceiving' how your un-moving ether can have an  ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?
niebieskieucho
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Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed),
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #41 on: 05/06/2013 23:40:31 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

Sure, it's a universe of infinite spatial and/or temporal extent, i.e. it never ends spatially and/or temporally. Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?

On the other hand, I can imagine plenty of things that are not real, so I'm not sure where your 'imaginable' assertion gets you. Oh, yes, you didn't respond to my previous point: were black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies real before people could imagine them?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #42 on: 08/06/2013 22:37:26 »
Turn it around.

How would you define 'finity'?

That's our old type of definitions, the ones we're used to, and the ones that make the most sense intuitively in our daily lives. Is nature a finite phenomena? Or are nonlinearities and infinities nature? To me the 'old ways' are our box,  comfortable and safe, but?

When you catch a ball, how do you calculate its path?
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #43 on: 09/06/2013 11:13:59 »
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When was matter created?
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
There was a Steady State theory of the universe, which suggested that matter is continually being created to fill the void as the universe expands. There were experiments done to try to find these bits of matter that popped into existence, without success; essentially the same experiment is being continued in an attempt to find evidence for dark matter. But discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation effectively killed the Steady-State theory, since it pointed to something that happened in the past, which is not happening in the same way today.

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Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
Various theories try to explain dark energy - some of them predict extremely high levels of it in every cubic centimeter of space.
As noted in other posts, energy levels tend to decrease to the lowest possible level, over time.
This suggests that the level of dark energy is decreasing over time, and showing itself in the increased acceleration we have seen in the expansion of the universe.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #44 on: 09/06/2013 14:47:41 »
... the level of dark energy is decreasing over time, and showing itself in the increased acceleration we have seen in the expansion of the universe.

So dark energy is 'holding the universe together' ?  by gravity or by some other means?
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #45 on: 09/06/2013 22:02:00 »
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acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

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dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

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All thoughts surrounding an infinite universe are currently conceptual and without questioning we would never know that this will hold true.
I see that you cannot sketch the universe, regardless of scale and accuracy. I have no doubt. Infinite universe does not exists. BTW what would it mean? Constantly expanding in its finiteness? How do you understand infiniteness in nature? Could you construct asymptotic ski jumping hill?
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #46 on: 09/06/2013 22:14:55 »
Well, I'm having trouble 'conceiving' how your un-moving ether can have an  ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?
Ether, which has no inner structure, doesn't perform spinning motion. Nevertheless, it is no quite immobile. It's motion is oscillation. Scientific literature says that ether is immobile as a mass in contrast to spinning / rotating matter.

 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #47 on: 09/06/2013 22:38:36 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
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Sure, it's a universe of infinite spatial and/or temporal extent, i.e. it never ends spatially and/or temporally.
I did not ask you for a verbal description, only a sketch.
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Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?
No problem. Any of them I can sketch as a sphere.
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On the other hand, I can imagine plenty of things that are not real, so I'm not sure where your 'imaginable' assertion gets you.
It doesn't matter. The discussion is on reality.
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Oh, yes, you didn't respond to my previous point:
Sorry. I probably overlooked. Now I am on vacation, so may respond irregularly.
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were black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies real before people could imagine them?
Yes, but it has nothing to do with a lack of imagining of them. BTW big bang never occurred. The BB belongs to number of scientific myths.
 

Offline niebieskieucho

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #48 on: 09/06/2013 22:54:51 »
Turn it around.

How would you define 'finity'?
In word "limes", e.g. any object has finite number of atoms.

That's our old type of definitions, the ones we're used to, and the ones that make the most sense intuitively in our daily lives. Is nature a finite phenomena? Or are nonlinearities and infinities nature? To me the 'old ways' are our box,  comfortable and safe, but?
[/quote]
Not quite. There is no need to use intuition by dividning eg 10 / 3 or calculating pi to realize that they are never ending calculations.
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When you catch a ball, how do you calculate its path?
This calculation is performed by brain. Faster than solution of the equation.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #49 on: 10/06/2013 00:14:00 »
I did not ask you for a verbal description, only a sketch.
OK - you weren't specific; a sketch can mean an abbreviated verbal description.
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Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?
No problem. Any of them I can sketch as a sphere.
Really?? If you feel a sphere qualifies as a sketch of those items, I'll give you a blank (or uniformly shaded) sheet of paper as a sketch of an infinite universe.
 

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Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
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