# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?  (Read 23763 times)

#### yor_on

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #50 on: 10/06/2013 11:53:54 »
Infinity can be described several ways, the modern idea seems to be be a bounded infinity. As if you took that paper and made it into a cylinder, assuming us on the outside/inside. What I mean with a balls path N, is that it from quantum scale approach becomes probabilities. Although to us presenting a 'finite' description, enabling us to catch it. And we're all mathematicians, at least when it comes to geometry, animals and humans both. We have to be to survive our motions :)

As for a aether, that will depend on how one define it. Is a 'field' a aether? Or a wave function?

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #51 on: 10/06/2013 15:55:38 »
... the modern idea seems to be be a bounded infinity. As if you took that paper and made it into a cylinder, assuming us on the outside/inside.
Nope, making it a cylinder doesn't make it infinite, it makes it finite but unbounded around its circumference, just as the surface of a sphere is finite but without boundaries.

#### lean bean

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #52 on: 10/06/2013 18:17:03 »
Ether, which has no inner structure, doesn't perform spinning motion. Nevertheless, it is no quite immobile. It's motion is oscillation. Scientific literature says that ether is immobile as a mass in contrast to spinning / rotating matter.

Can you explain this 'oscillation' ? does it involve a time period?? if so, can you explain what's changing or moving for your structureless ether to be considered  in oscillation?  Are you saying the ocillations are what we 'see' as particles, is that your idea?
« Last Edit: 10/06/2013 18:20:55 by lean bean »

#### yor_on

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #53 on: 11/06/2013 01:10:27 »
A ' unbounded 'finity' ' is to me a 'bounded infinity' :) all depending on where you stand looking at it. Take the idea of you leaving to the left of a universe, just to come in at the right :)

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #54 on: 11/06/2013 10:04:44 »
A ' unbounded 'finity' ' is to me a 'bounded infinity' :) all depending on where you stand looking at it. Take the idea of you leaving to the left of a universe, just to come in at the right :)
The old arcade game 'Asteroids' worked like that. Whenever you left the screen on one edge, you'd reappear at a corresponding point on the opposite edge. This is a closed unbounded 2D world; you can travel through it for an infinite time but it is not itself infinite, any more than a clock face is infinite because the hands can go round it for ever. All infinities are unbounded in some respect, but not all that is unbounded is infinite (e.g. closed topologies).

#### yor_on

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #55 on: 11/06/2013 12:10:08 »
Well, I guess it's a question of terminology dlorde? You use it in a certain manner, people agreeing with you on what they mean by it. But to the guy inside the game the 'infinity' should exist, and presuming homogeneity and isotropy he won't know when he left to the left, to come in at the right. At least I would expect it to be so. Still, using they eye of a God :) we know it is still 'bounded'. And that is what I meant by a 'bounded infinity'. Shouldn't have used that paper analogy though :)

#### Pr. snoerkel

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #56 on: 11/06/2013 20:40:37 »
Back to the original qustions:

Re:How can something be created from nothing?
Just remember that official science in this context is pure speculation - same as every other theory. You may be able to think of a better theory that fits into the known facts just as well, if you think out of the box.

Re: Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Look at the stars. Every second they convert at lot of matter to energy, so even though most matter is black matter, and we do not know what that is made of, it is a fair assumption to say that the amount of matter is decreasing and will continue to do so. There is strong support for a theory that even the proton is basicly unstable.

Re: 13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe. There was no space, matter. Time started then.
That number is based on the apparent expansion rate of the Universe. Some stars indicate that the universe is much older - and it probably is.

Re: When was matter created?
If matter is unstable at the low temperatures in the present Universe, it stands to reason that matter will form in the right temperature range/energy density

Re: Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
In my mind dark energy is an illusion caused by our perception of time and volume. But, yes.

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #57 on: 11/06/2013 22:07:54 »
Well, I guess it's a question of terminology dlorde?
No, it's not a question of terminology. If you run round a running track and fail to notice you've got back to where you started, that doesn't make the track infinitely long; the same applies to the 'guy inside the game'. If you have it your way, every circle has an infinite circumference and every sphere an infinite area, which is... absurd.

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #58 on: 11/06/2013 22:21:14 »
Re: 13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe. There was no space, matter. Time started then.
Those are hypotheses. Many cosmologists now hypothesize that there actually was something before the big bang.

Quote
Some stars indicate that the universe is much older - and it probably is.
Last I heard, the uncertainty in the measurement of the age of the 'methuselah star' has a range that allows it to be younger than the age of the universe. It also has the lack of heavier elements characteristic of a first generation star. See Oldest Known Star. What else makes you think cosmologists have got the age of the universe wrong?

« Last Edit: 11/06/2013 22:23:44 by dlorde »

#### niebieskieucho

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #59 on: 11/06/2013 22:59:28 »
I did not ask you for a verbal description, only a sketch.
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OK - you weren't specific; a sketch can mean an abbreviated verbal description.
Maybe my English is not good enough, but by "to sketch", I literally meant "to draw" (not necessarily precisely).
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Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?
No problem. Any of them I can sketch as a sphere.
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Really?? If you feel a sphere qualifies as a sketch of those items, I'll give you a blank (or uniformly shaded) sheet of paper as a sketch of an infinite universe.
Yes indeed ((!))
You compare incomparable things. I didn't ask for prcise and to scale drawing. Any real (material) object can be comprised in a solid. You cannot do it with infinite universe. Similarly as you divide 100 by 13 and you'll never see the final result (quotient), but you can see endless sequence of numbers.

#### Pr. snoerkel

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #60 on: 12/06/2013 09:09:33 »
As far as I understand, calculation the age of the universe is based on the present expansion rate of the Universe (when was all matter located at the same point?). However, that seems to simplistic. We know that the expansion rate is speeding up (and was slower in the past?), and according to the theory of relativity also time is variable. So I see no reason to believe that the big bang happened exactly 13.8 billion years ago

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #61 on: 12/06/2013 09:52:29 »
As far as I understand, calculation the age of the universe is based on the present expansion rate of the Universe (when was all matter located at the same point?). However, that seems to simplistic. We know that the expansion rate is speeding up (and was slower in the past?), and according to the theory of relativity also time is variable. So I see no reason to believe that the big bang happened exactly 13.8 billion years ago
As I understand it, they feed their observational data into their mathematical models, which are based on general relativity, and so the accelerating expansion is included, and any relativistic effects of time dilation are also accounted for. Whether the precision of the resulting figure is really meaningful to us is not really the issue; as long as the same mathematical models are used for related calculations, the results should be commensurate. If there are contradictions, either the observations are faulty or the models need tweaking.

#### evan_au

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #62 on: 12/06/2013 11:00:52 »
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The old arcade game 'Asteroids' worked like that. Whenever you left the screen on one edge, you'd reappear at a corresponding point on the opposite edge.

This technique has been used in a 3D simulation of the universe. They simulated the largest cubic space that would fit into their supercomputer, and then made the matter near the edge of the cube "feel" the effects of matter outside the cube by making it "adjacent" to the far side of the cube - effectively a "periodic" universe in the X, Y and Z dimensions. This is good for simulating structures which are smaller than the cube.

1 hour Podcast @ normal speed: http://omegataupodcast.net/2010/04/31-the-millennium-simulation/

#### evan_au

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #63 on: 12/06/2013 11:06:17 »
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So dark energy is 'holding the universe together' ?  by gravity or by some other means?

My understanding of current theories is that dark energy is pushing the universe apart.

Earlier in the history of the universe, gravity was stronger than dark energy, but as the universe became less dense, the effect of gravity became less and the expansive effect of dark energy started to dominate.

#### yor_on

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #64 on: 12/06/2013 12:31:25 »
I don't know dlorde, but I'm not sure it is absurd? To me it's a question of who defines it, and from 'where'. In this universe it is us that does it, and we expect our universe to be isotropic and homogeneous, as well as 'infinite'. Possibly a 'God' would disagree with that, although we find it impossible to experimentally define a 'border' for it, even when divinely informed :).

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #65 on: 12/06/2013 14:36:34 »
My understanding of current theories is that dark energy is pushing the universe apart.
This is my understanding too. Which is why I was surprised when you said:
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As noted in other posts, energy levels tend to decrease to the lowest possible level, over time.
This suggests that the level of dark energy is decreasing over time, and showing itself in the increased acceleration we have seen in the expansion of the universe.
Which implies that dark energy slows the acceleration, which increases as dark energy decreases...

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #66 on: 12/06/2013 14:44:35 »
I don't know dlorde, but I'm not sure it is absurd? To me it's a question of who defines it, and from 'where'.
You can define infinity to be whatever you like, but if your definition is so different from the standard definition that means something quite different (e.g. allowing finite metrics to be considered infinite), you shouldn't be surprised if people find it absurd. What use is it to consider closed topologies to be infinite?

#### evan_au

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #67 on: 12/06/2013 22:38:04 »
Which implies that dark energy slows the acceleration, which increases as dark energy decreases...

One of the theories I have heard is that Dark Energy is a weak field that has a small non-zero value across the universe (or in other formulations, it is the difference between two very strong fields which cancel out, but not quite...).

If this field accelerates visible matter, then the Dark Energy is being converted into Kinetic Energy (or the stretching of space-time, etc), and the level of Dark Energy would be decreasing over time.

If the universe is being held tightly together by gravitation (such as in the early universe, or in our galaxy), or being held tightly together by electric fields (such as in our planet or our bodies), then the Dark Energy cannot push it apart - at least, at its present weak strength.

So rather than saying "dark energy slows the acceleration" I would say that "Strong Gravity & Electric fields inhibit dark energy from accelerating matter".

[Of, course, there is also the "Big Rip" hypothesis that Dark Energy gets stronger and stronger over time, until it rips apart galaxies, solar systems, planets and us.... But this doesn't explain where the Dark Energy gets this increased energy.]

PS: At its most basic, the term "Dark" means "We don't know what it is, so give us lots of money to find out...".

#### yor_on

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #68 on: 12/06/2013 23:51:44 »
Well, then we're absurd :) if now the topology of whatever universe we define as infinite, is finite? As some ideas suggest.

#### Pr. snoerkel

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #69 on: 13/06/2013 15:38:33 »
As far as I understand, calculation the age of the universe is based on the present expansion rate of the Universe (when was all matter located at the same point?). However, that seems to simplistic. We know that the expansion rate is speeding up (and was slower in the past?), and according to the theory of relativity also time is variable. So I see no reason to believe that the big bang happened exactly 13.8 billion years ago
As I understand it, they feed their observational data into their mathematical models, which are based on general relativity, and so the accelerating expansion is included, and any relativistic effects of time dilation are also accounted for. Whether the precision of the resulting figure is really meaningful to us is not really the issue; as long as the same mathematical models are used for related calculations, the results should be commensurate. If there are contradictions, either the observations are faulty or the models need tweaking.
Did anybody else hear that?

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #70 on: 14/06/2013 13:40:18 »
... If this field accelerates visible matter, then the Dark Energy is being converted into Kinetic Energy (or the stretching of space-time, etc), and the level of Dark Energy would be decreasing over time.
Ah, OK. This suggests that, over time, the acceleration should slow and eventually stop, as Dark Energy reduces to zero. That potentially introduces the prospect of the expansion slowing and even reversing, as gravity takes effect. I guess the timescale depends on how much DE is out there...

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[Of, course, there is also the "Big Rip" hypothesis that Dark Energy gets stronger and stronger over time, until it rips apart galaxies, solar systems, planets and us.... But this doesn't explain where the Dark Energy gets this increased energy.]
Yes, it seems odd.

#### Zavenoa

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #71 on: 15/06/2013 00:56:08 »
When was matter created?

13.8 billion years ago in a single instant, also known as the singularity where the general laws of relativity break down.  Cosmic inflation theory states after the Big Bang the Universe expanded exponentially in 10-37 seconds.  Once the period of inflation stopped, the Universe was essentially a plasma of elementary particles moving at relativistic speeds slamming into each other creating and destroying particle-antiparticle pairs.  A few minutes after the big bang, while temperatures were still in excess of a billion kelvin, primordial nucleosynthesis took effect and deuterium (H-2), the helium isotopes He-3 and He-4, and the lithium isotopes Li-6 and Li-7 were created among some less stable radioactive isotopes like tritium (H-3) were formed but either decayed or fused to become more stable nuclei.  The rest pretty much settled into hydrogen.

Is the amount of matter still increasing?

Matter is increasing and decreasing, but Matter is only the stuff we can actually see, I believe your question is whether or not Mass is increasing.  The two must be differentiated.  As far as Mass goes, you have to consider energy as well.  Einsteins formula E=mc2 (Energy = Mass * Speed of Light Squared) is called the mass-energy equivalence which states mass is a property of all energy and vice-verse.  There are different forms of the equation for different instances, but essentially you can't create or destroy mass, only convert it into energy.  Similarly, energy can be converted into mass, it just takes quite a lot of it (I believe this has been done at the Large Hadron Collider, and detected by the TRIUMF team).

Is the amount of dark energy increasing?

No, above would apply to dark energy as well.  On the dark energy note, evan_au is correct in stating that dark energy is responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe.  That's the only reason we know it's there, right now both dark energy and dark matter are the same thing the neutrino was before direct detection in 1956, a variable that made a formula balance.  Without dark energy, there is no way to explain why our Universe's expansion is accelerating, the expansion should be decelerating due to gravity.  Similarly, without dark matter, the solar systems at the tips of the spirals in the Milky Way Galaxy would get tossed out into intergalactic space by the rotation of the galaxy.

I believe we are closer to understanding dark matter after the direct detection of the Higgs boson particle in 2012.  After all, if there was one sub-atomic particle out there we couldn't find, may there not be more?  Dark energy may be more difficult, it may not.  One theory is the Chameleon model which states there is another particle that can act differently in different situations.  Where there is matter, the chameleon would be heavier and would be more sluggish like the weak or strong forces, while in the vacuum of space where there is little matter the chameleon would be far lighter and more reactive like the electromagnetic force.

How can something be created from nothing?

The only way we know this can happen is in quantum mechanics, and that's where it just gets weird.  In complete honesty, quantum mechanics baffles me.  I have no idea how anything can pop in and out of existence, or how two particles can be in different places but linked, known as Quantum Entanglement.  Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance," and I think that about sums it up.

As far as how the Universe was created from nothing, there are many theories on the subject and most deal with parallel universes, like M-Theory.  The theory I like the best deals with our Universe starting as a white hole when a black hole was created in a parallel universe connected by an Einstein-Rosen bridge (aka a wormhole).  Essentially, mass and energy falling into the black hole in the parallel universe would have traveled through the wormhole and out the white hole on the other side.  Maybe the black hole stopped feeding and went dormant after that, which is why we don't see the mass of the Universe constantly increasing, but then what happens if the black hole in the parallel universe starts feeding again?  Would mass and energy start shooting out of the middle of our Universe?  Where is the center of our Universe?  How come quantum particles are allowed to break the rules and I'm not?

Disclaimer, I am not a physicist and none of these ideas are my own (and any or all may be wrong), please ask Michio if you have any further questions.
« Last Edit: 15/06/2013 01:02:17 by Zavenoa »

#### Pr. snoerkel

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #72 on: 15/06/2013 07:55:04 »
... If this field accelerates visible matter, then the Dark Energy is being converted into Kinetic Energy (or the stretching of space-time, etc), and the level of Dark Energy would be decreasing over time.
Ah, OK. This suggests that, over time, the acceleration should slow and eventually stop, as Dark Energy reduces to zero. That potentially introduces the prospect of the expansion slowing and even reversing, as gravity takes effect. I guess the timescale depends on how much DE is out there...

Quote
[Of, course, there is also the "Big Rip" hypothesis that Dark Energy gets stronger and stronger over time, until it rips apart galaxies, solar systems, planets and us.... But this doesn't explain where the Dark Energy gets this increased energy.]
Yes, it seems odd.

I would believe that the accelleration will continue, with or without DE and I base this on the following observations:
In a few billion years, at the latest, the rim of the Universe will move away at near light velocity (at present max observed redshift is only 8.6, but that is just a lower limit). As the velocity of an object near the rim approaches light speed, the mass will also increase according to relativity. The increased mass will of course attract the rest of the Unirve with ever increased force, and consequently the expansion rate will increase.
This may already be the case in the present Universe and be the source of the dark energy

#### dlorde

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #73 on: 15/06/2013 16:20:25 »
As the velocity of an object near the rim approaches light speed, the mass will also increase according to relativity. The increased mass will of course attract the rest of the Unirve with ever increased force, and consequently the expansion rate will increase.

Wait, you're saying that in the absence of DE, gravity will increase the expansion rate?

#### Pr. snoerkel

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##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #74 on: 15/06/2013 17:09:37 »
That what I'm saying, but not clearly enough, it seems. Using the Stephen Hawking trick and use a 2-D model it could be described as:
Imagine that you have a thin flexible disc with steel ball evenly distributed over it. Now add more steel ball near the rim, and you will see the whole disc bend down, but especially near the rim. The balls will then roll towards the rim at higher speed.
The relativistic equivalent is of course that any object approaching the speed of light will gain mass.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #74 on: 15/06/2013 17:09:37 »