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Author Topic: Ufos... How do they work?  (Read 41493 times)

Offline Pmb

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #25 on: 15/09/2013 08:49:08 »
Quote from: ScientificSorcerer
I don't know if it's an electron beam at all, all i'm saying is that it looks like the classic UFO beam like the one depicted below.
A classic UFO beam does in no way imply that itís a particle beam. And electrons have nothing to do with such a process so there's no reason to speculate that there is a relationship between what you see and an electron beam.

A current of charged particles through a low-pressure gas normally causes a glow like that. However there is a large resistance to such a current and that causes the beam to travel only a very short distance.

And it's for reasons exactly like this that UFO stories are assumed to be either false or a result of exaggeration. The assumptions are very poor.

Quite often, if not almost always, people will either intentionally or unintentionally, describe what they observer incorrectly. And when someone hears that they will do the same thing. After several generations of slight perturbations in the story it becomes an entirely different story. And when you describe something as being an electron beam for no reason at all you've started the process off on a strong footing. That's why I described only and exactly what I saw with no interpretation to it.

Quote from: ScientificSorcerer
This is how I've gone about attempting to understand the ufo a little more, by looking at a UFO video or listening to stories of ufo encounters and Identifying some of the ship's characteristics such as a blue beam or the fact that it seems to interfere with radios and electrical equipment. look at these videos of the
"Fire in the sky" story.
And it's for this exact reason that any assumption about what the beam is will be a bad assumption. There is no known process which will cause that phenomena using charged particles and cause that kind of glow.

Quote from: ScientificSorcerer
now that we have a description, now you can look into the underlining physics behind it, Based on it's characteristic effects, you can look up and compare the effects similar (known) scientific effects.
Any attempt to do so is bad science. There is no phenomena in those stories and what we know from physics that would cause those results. It's for those reasons that any result would be bad science.

(snipped the rest)

I snipped the rest for not being very well thought out. You canít just say that the UFO is charged and thatís why you see it glow. Thereís no reason why that should be true and it if is then you havenít given the complete description of why. You make an hypothesis where something should be able to be calculated and you donít provide the calculations.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #26 on: 15/09/2013 09:19:26 »
One such case is the bob white UFO encounter, he saw this thing come off of a UFO when it was going to warp speed.


Industrial waste-product ...


 http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-10-12/
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 09:23:28 by RD »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #27 on: 15/09/2013 11:07:58 »
I don't know if it's an electron beam at all, all i'm saying is that it looks like the classic UFO beam like the one depicted below.
Ah, OK. It's just that you said:
... I believe that it is a cathode ray otherwise known as an electron beam. The device is something similar to a new type of propulsion system used by NASA called an "ion thruster"...
I guess that sounded more definite than you meant it.

Quote
... say the field is positively ionized and the beam is negatively ionized, or vice versa. wouldn't that make some kind of magnet beam? If you were touched by this beam then you would electrocuted I think like the guy in the video.
No, not magnetic, and no, not electrocuted. Electron or ion beam particles are accelerated by a high voltage in the beam gun, but it doesn't extend beyond the gun. You might get heat or radiation burns from an intense beam.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #28 on: 15/09/2013 11:21:49 »
One such case is the bob white UFO encounter, he saw this thing come off of a UFO when it was going to warp speed.


Industrial waste-product ...
Yup; in fact, it is described and explained as such in the comments to the YouTube video that ScientificSorcerer linked to!

The most plausible explanation for Bob White's story is that he made it all up after finding the grinder stalagmite.

It's also worth noting that the History Channel is in the entertainment business, and in recent years, they definitely don't let facts get in the way. A documentary about a mysterious lump of metal is no fun if it turns out to be industrial waste, so when official, accredited, labs test it and find it's junk, they must be lying, and it's time to get a couple of pocket 'scientists' to come on and say it's really weird stuff.
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #29 on: 17/09/2013 20:22:09 »
Expectant_Philosopher  Can you tell me if my idea that I present below has any plausibility?

One defining characteristic of a classic UFO is a Blue beam which comes out of the bottom of the craft, this blue beam appears to have unusual anti-gravity effects.
There are many cases of UFO sightings which involve a blue beam characteristic.

I wonder what sort of beam it is? I don't think that it is a beam of light, I believe that it is a cathode ray otherwise known as an electron beam. The device is something similar to a new type of propulsion system used by NASA called an "ion thruster" it looks like the ...

If a gravity effect, the blue beam could be an artifact of the gravitational alteration of the environment.  A blue shift indicates an increasing frequency.  If a gravity well were created under the ship the blue color effect would not be uniform, it would be strongest where the outgoing gravitational waves intersected with the reflected gravitational waves at the focal point necessary to lift the object.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #30 on: 17/09/2013 22:16:06 »
Or kids with a blue LED torch ;)
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #31 on: 30/09/2013 05:44:04 »
Or kids with a blue LED torch ;)

:) !
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #32 on: 03/10/2013 03:16:53 »
When I was 19 (I'm 53 now) a friend and i were walking home one night and saw a bright light in the sky moving from right to left across the sky. Neither of us realized that the other had seen it as we were chatting. It suddenly went straight up vertically. We both turned to each other at the same time and asked "Did you see that?" Now this could easily have been an atmospheric disturbance or a light shining into the sky. I don't know to this day. That is the problem. Unless a 7 foot big green alien lands in front of me, gets out of his ship and say "Hi" I will reserve judgement.
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #33 on: 09/10/2013 05:13:06 »
Ok I should have realized that you have to take stuff relating to UFO's with a grain of salt.  People could easily be making this stuff up or exaggerating the truth.  That simply means that you gotta get more creative, I have recently came to understand a force called the "electron wind" and realized how it could be used for propulsion.
It's my understanding that you can negatively or positively charge particles of air and the "wind" effect comes from the charged air particles repelling each other, because like charges repel, in much the same way like poled magnets repel.

                                                       

Now magnets can repel or attract ionized air as well, I believe that UFOs are both magnetic and surrounded by ionized gas which is why they glow, Is it possible that the bottom of the ship could be positively charged and positively charges the air around it then a ultra strong superconducting magnet attracts the air upward as to get lift, and or the top half of the ship be negatively charged so that the super magnet strongly repels the air as to get an updraft lift and at the same time cutting down air resistance?

there was an effect I heard about {the name I can't remember} which involves a vortex of wind to lift a disk shaped craft, Because of a magnetic force called "spin" the craft would cause the air to make a vortex of ionized air around the north and south poles of the superconductor magnet.  An added bonus to the lift of a craft like this.

What is the scientific plausibility of this idea? any takers?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #34 on: 09/10/2013 10:29:45 »
What is the scientific plausibility of this idea? any takers?
The only ionised gas propulsion systems I know are ion engines for spacecraft. These can provide a steady continuous acceleration, but it's very low powered. Very high speeds can eventually be achieved, but it takes a long time at such low acceleration. They wouldn't be suitable for maneuvering, either in the atmosphere or in space.
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #35 on: 10/10/2013 03:48:20 »
dlorde, the ion thrust idea for a space craft engine is a similar concept but what i'm talking about is slightly different.
In-order to explain my self a little better, Just imagine a helicopter.  A helicopter basically uses a big fan to push air down to get lifted up



My Idea Uses a big powerful "superconducting" magnet to push air down. Normally air is unaffected by magnets BUT negatively ionized air is repelled by magnets.  If you used an ionizer coil like this one then you can push the air down with a magnet.

http://www.amazing1.com/products/negative-ion-generator-12vdc-input-20kv-output.html

It would be on a larger scale and connected it to the bottom of the ship which would be coated in a thin layer of conductive metal such as aluminum, then it would begin to ionize the air around the bottom of the ship, then the big super magnet would repel the - air downward.

positively charged Ions would be attracted to the magnet, so you could Ionize the top of the air ship positively, and get lift in much the same way, both of these used at the same time would give you a lot of lift (I think).

take a look at this video of a UFO.

notice how the entire thing glows, the thing could be covered in Plasma(highly ionized gas/air), it could be high voltage and it uses a big magnet to push this high voltage air upward or downward depending on the ionization type + or - you see what I mean? I don't know if this concept makes sense "Physically" I need feed back from other physics minds to verify the plausibility.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #36 on: 10/10/2013 08:11:21 »
My Idea Uses a big powerful "superconducting" magnet to push air down. Normally air is unaffected by magnets BUT negatively ionized air is repelled by magnets.  If you used an ionizer coil like this one then you can push the air down with a magnet ...

No magnets required for thrust via ionized air, just lots of volts  ...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0FusVb4Gp4#t=3m13s

take a look at this video of a UFO.

notice how the entire thing glows, the thing could be covered in Plasma(highly ionized gas/air) ...

Alternatively it's a highly-reflective  aluminized-mylar party-balloon filled with helium ...

[ the diamond shape which occasionally appears in the video is due to the shape of the camera lens aperture]
« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 08:49:17 by RD »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #37 on: 10/10/2013 09:38:10 »
... I don't know if this concept makes sense "Physically" I need feed back from other physics minds to verify the plausibility.
I'm afraid I can't calculate the potential repulsion or lift, but I seriously doubt it could practically support a significant mass.

I don't think videos of balloons will provide any useful information (except to meteorologists!).
« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 09:39:43 by dlorde »
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #38 on: 11/10/2013 05:16:54 »
Quote
I seriously doubt it could practically support a significant mass

The Electron wind force by it self won't generate more then a few grams of force Because it's force merely comes from the like charged air particles repelling each other. But I think your underestimating the power of a 10 Tesla super-magnet.



this Junk yard magnet can lift cars, and it's just 1 Tesla strong, a Fully charged superconductor magnet coil can be over 10 times the power of that Junk yard magnet and about 1/3 it's size and weight and on top of that, this magnet requires no power to stay at that level of magnetism ones it's charged. Imagine the boot of repulsion power which that Quantum entangling super-magnet can provide, it's freaking ridiculous mang!

Imagine an air molecule, just floating around minding it's own business then it enters the strong magnetic field of the ship, the little guy is unaffected so it continues on deeper into the magnetic field, then when it gets really close to the ship it gets ionized, at that moment the air molecule gets rail-gunned out of the intense magnetic field at high speed giving you lift.

now lets look at a lifter's propulsion system.  the air molecules get close to the ship and get ionized BUT the only repulsion force felt by the air molecules is from each other, because like charges repel and only very weakly. By adding the super magnet into the equation you get an incredible lifting force.

that is the difference between my idea and a lifter.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #39 on: 11/10/2013 09:33:14 »
... I think your underestimating the power of a 10 Tesla super-magnet.

I've been inside a 3 Tesla field ...


not even a breeze (and helluva noisy).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging#Magnetic_field


...  the air molecules get close to the ship and get ionized BUT the only repulsion force felt by the air molecules is from each other, because like charges repel and only very weakly. By adding the super magnet into the equation you get an incredible lifting force.

When charged particles enter a strong magnetic field they go nowhere fast : in ever decreasing circles ... http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/81870/enlarge

Quote from: .wikipedia.org/Lorentz_force


Beam of electrons moving in a circle, due to the presence of a magnetic field.
 Purple light is emitted along the electron path, due to the electrons colliding with gas molecules in the bulb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force#History
« Last Edit: 11/10/2013 10:26:01 by RD »
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #40 on: 12/10/2013 03:53:54 »
RD you must be familiar to the cathode ray tube and how that electron beam was made in the first place, as I recall electrons are generated by a tuncstin filliment then an electro magnet ring coil exelerates those electrons into a beam, a line.

 My super magnet ion propultion system would exelerate ionized air or gas in much the same way. My idea would be very similar to if not exactly the same as the "ion thruster" the only difference is that instead of powering a weak electromagnet to exelerate the charged particles, you would use a super magnet and instead of useing lithium or neon for propellent you use the air around you.

This thing wouldn't be a "space craft" it would be a "air craft" but it could easily be a space craft by uesing charged lithium gas from tanks onboard the ship ones you get up to the edge of the atmosphere. Also the ion thruster is designed to use low power propulsion, my ship would use tesla coil strength to ionize the bottom of the ship while a 10 tesla magnet repels the charged plasma gas at high speed.

The spin of the electrons will probably just focus the air into some kind of wind vortex centered around the bottom pole, when the air molecule gets repelled by the magnet it moves away from the electric field and looses it's ionization do to air resistance, then the magnet wouldn't effect the air.

The air wouldn't be ionized long enough to go in a ring, just long enough to get pushed away.
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #41 on: 20/10/2013 08:06:32 »
If a gravity effect, the blue beam could be an artifact of the gravitational alteration of the environment.  A blue shift indicates an increasing frequency.  If a gravity well were created under the ship the blue color effect would not be uniform, it would be strongest where the outgoing gravitational waves intersected with the reflected gravitational waves at the focal point necessary to lift the object.

Did you see the research from Raymond Chiao from University of California.  He has defined a direct relationship between Electromagnetic Waves and Gravitational Waves and has postulated that one can generate the other.  His theory is that using Superconductors he can create a gravitational wave reflector that will generate electromagnetic waves, and that the reverse is also true, electromagnetic waves can generate gravitational waves with Superconducters.  This merges Maxwell's electromagnetic wave equations with those gravitational wave equations of Einstein. 

It seems to me that for an anti-gravity field to be useful from a ship it must have something of which to bounce off.  This could imply a principal, if anti-gravity fields are being used by UFO's, that a gravitational wave generator also acts as a reflector. That the earth as a gravitational wave generator can reflect the gravitational waves produced by such a device aboard a ship. It also implies another principle, there must be an ideal wave frequency (generated by the ship) that interacts with a base frequency (generated by the Earth) to enable reflection and thus lift for the ship. The ship's generator needs to increase the frequency of the generated waves, until lift occurs. This increasing frequency of gravitational waves, produces electromagnetic waves of increasing frequency and you obtain "blue shift". 

This leaves open a question, if the blue field is noticed only when something is lifted to the ship, some other means of ship's drive must be in operation, otherwise we would see the "blue shift" whenever someone saw UFO's.
« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 08:17:42 by Expectant_Philosopher »
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #42 on: 23/10/2013 22:32:41 »
Think of the technologic and medical breakthroughs we might enrich ourselves with from alien visitors.  Though these advancements might be a two-edged sword.  We believe these visitors to be explorers, but what if they were forced by population growth or loss of habitat to seek out other worlds.  These aliens' successes in medicine and technology, provided both impetus and means to search for other worlds to colonize. Finding a gem like our own world would be like finding a cup of water in a desert, precious but limited.  I'm puzzled though, from all the visitations I've read about I really don't see any industriousness or creativity, no lasting impact.  To what end their visits? They've been recorded as far back as ancient times, (read Plutarch's Lives, Julius Ceasar's visitation), and yet no ultimatums to the populace, no hidden alien populations, no conflicts between rival claimants to the planet, no technology transfers. Our world seems to lead a charmed existence, protected from our worst fears concerning alien visitation.   

If these aliens really wanted a new world to call their own why haven't they terraformed Mars long ago? We could've been trading partners with the new Martians.  With our limited technology we believe we could actually terraform Mars, but either the aliens are very lazy and just want to drink from our cup of water, or they have oceans enough and don't really need the Earth.
« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 22:42:18 by Expectant_Philosopher »
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #43 on: 28/10/2013 18:55:21 »
We are making assumptions, we need to back up for a moment and see the UFO for what it is, a metal disk in the sky.
we don't know if "aliens" pilot these things, heck we don't even know if they are even space craft. When someone sees a UFO it's almost always in the "sky" not in space, unless you take ISS sightings into account. and when you see a UFO you don't normally see actual aliens, unless you are abducted, which is another subject entirely. and we dont even know if the UFO is using anti gravity, it could be a form of magnetic levitation.

To me only "evidence" can be used and only carefully and selectively, because you cant trust many sources in this field of study.

"we can't assume anything without definitive evidence" Quote from Sherlock Holmes

As of right now we can only say that a UFO is a flying metal disk with lights on it from, witnesses accounts.  and we can barely trust the witnesses in this case. Apparently we also have so called "video evidence" of the UFO, but you must careful analyzed to determine if these videos are real or fake, because again, you can't trust many sources in this case.
And last but not least, the most rare evidence and possibly most useful is crop circles and launch burn marks.

But other then the things I mentioned everything else is an assumption.  we need to look into these key areas to see what we can learn from before we assume anything.

in reality only crop circles and launch burns are real "hard" evidence which you can go to and analyze with scientific instruments. from analysis of various crop circles and burn marks scientist have uncovered some unusual readings such as electrostatic charges and magnetized iron partials in the dirt

« Last Edit: 28/10/2013 19:09:48 by ScientificSorcerer »
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #44 on: 04/11/2015 11:47:00 »
I have seen 2 UFOs where I live. They were both pulsating diamonds at about cloud level. They made no sound, hovered silently in all directions, then slowly vanished.

Those babies were incredibly bright. I do believe that they were ET in origin.

UFO's have also been spotted traveling underwater, showing their propulsion doesn't care much for whichever medium it is traveling through.

My best guess would be some sort of antigravity field, pushing away the forces present immediately around the craft and generating its own forcefield.

If Bob Lazar is to be believed, the fuel is a stable isotope of element 115 which produces antimatter, generating great amounts of electrical energy with which to create the antigravity field.


As such, the dynamics of the ship wouldn't really matter. You could made it a dodecahedron and it would still be able to accelerate to 30000mph in a blink of an eye.

« Last Edit: 04/11/2015 11:49:06 by sam7 »
 

Offline obieezx11

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #45 on: 23/01/2016 17:51:23 »
The triangle craft are american.
The ships are nuclear and it drives a magnetic force in the bottom of the ship.
The magnetic force reacts against the earths magnetic force.
Giving the ship the ability to fly when they want to take off they turn up the magnetic force in the ship
and its like putting north and south together on a magnet same in space they use the magnetic force to fly straight they tilt the front of the ship down a bit and off it go's.
and if your ever seen a ship hovering over the ground it will move slightly up and down and sideways that because of the different levels of bedrock in the earth between the magnetic force of the earth i've known this since i was 11 i'm 52 now.
sorry about no grimmer i'm right brained and because of the way i see out of my eyes i can't learn it or spell and they only teach left brained ppl in school right brained ppl  need to be tort differently and what hand you use has nothing to do with it hope this helps
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #46 on: 23/01/2016 18:29:40 »

If these aliens really wanted a new world to call their own why haven't they terraformed Mars long ago? We could've been trading partners with the new Martians.  With our limited technology we believe we could actually terraform Mars, but either the aliens are very lazy and just want to drink from our cup of water, or they have oceans enough and don't really need the Earth.

because being stationary in space is a precarious affair. Far more survival advantage being able to maneuver at will. Especially with other controlled craft out there that could wipe you out in an instant. Far better for a species to live in motherships. Just need to keep some very trustworthy and competent guys at the helm/engine room...
 

Offline alysdexia

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #47 on: 25/01/2016 06:38:22 »
I often read ignorant claims that a glow can't be seen sideways, also that a lightsaber or laser beam can't be seen (if a lightsaber is a laser), but then you couldn't see the sky either.  Rayleigh scattering allows it.

Until witnesses own spectral gear at least like a diffraction grating they can't tell what makes the glows.  I couldn't find any results other than one UFO spectrum like hydrogen.

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=UFO+spectrograph%a6spectrometer%a6spectrogram%a6grating%a6%22spectral+lines%22%a6%22emission+lines%22
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/new-ufo-tracking-project-seti
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Studying_Unidentified_Aerial_Phenomena_Scientifically_with_UFODATA_999.html

If the UFOs are magnŤtic, how can they go east and west?  Can they gauss-degauss soil magnetite?

I think the black triangles are laser kites or maser kites: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=laser+propulsion.  The black is needed as a radiator.  The Belgium triangle's lamps are almost certainly sodium; I don't know what they do; maybe they're a guide star for the laser tracker.  Hydrogen should make a good propellant.  A gas gun can shoot unto 35 km/s (Mach 100).

One such case is the bob white UFO encounter, he saw this thing come off of a UFO when it was going to warp speed.


Industrial waste-product ...


 http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-10-12/

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-10-12/#comment-6178
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-10-12/#comment-8166
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-10-12/#comment-9030

Sceptics are usually special investigative journalists, not scientists themselves.  Their word isn't better than any other third person's.  Close encounters often report radiation burns.  They never say what kind of radiation but I will gess UV and X.
 

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Re: Ufos... How do they work?
« Reply #47 on: 25/01/2016 06:38:22 »

 

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