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Author Topic: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?  (Read 200492 times)

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #825 on: 28/03/2014 06:32:36 »
Is probability by chance alone, or does it have/follow laws?
If it has laws, why do they exist?

Can anything following principles laws etc, be defined as having a 'free choice', as in that spins outcome? because that is how we define it, isn't it? As if there is no way knowing the spin beforehand, unless we somehow manipulate it (weak experiments).
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #826 on: 28/03/2014 06:47:32 »
Ok, from that we can look at ourselves. Do you expect us to be cut of from the rest of the universe, by us having a ability to consciously choose? And what makes that final choice, kismet? Or you, weighting alternatives against each other? Is the ability to choose the same as a free will? Depends on if you're following a logic or not, wouldn't you say? There's different types of logics, and what I think we use normally is colored not only by self interests, although they are a major part of how we decide. What you find important for yourself short term, may change if you think of it long term.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #827 on: 28/03/2014 06:51:42 »
Defining it this way, a really 'free will' must be proven to use no logic.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #828 on: 28/03/2014 06:54:40 »
And that would most probably place the person enacting it into the category collected by nice friendly men, in white coats :)
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #829 on: 28/03/2014 21:48:49 »
And that would most probably place the person enacting it into the category collected by nice friendly men, in white coats :)
Exactly....................Every choice we make is bases upon information we gather from our environment and our senses. Therefore, the criterion we use in making these decisions is outside of our so-called free will. One must really ask; What does the term "free will" really mean? If it is based upon this external information, I suggest that it is not free at all. And if it is based entirely upon feelings irrespective of objective information, then the decisions made are done so irrationally and point to actions taken with no regard for the evidence.

I suggest we mistakenly elevate the sovereignty of the self when we assume our capacity for free will. There is nothing in this world nor the cosmos that is free, and that, in my opinion, includes the will of the individual. 
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #830 on: 29/03/2014 12:03:04 »
Maybe Ethos, but we use choices, and there are always alternatives. It may well be so that the universe is so filled with information that any attempt to quantify it, from where and how we measure, becomes meaningless. If there is no limit theoretically to what your choice might become, and you're the one deciding your path. Isn't that as close as we can come to 'free will'? Inside a logic. Think of how we use small and large infinities, a meaningless concept inside such a one, as it from the inside must be infinite any which way.

Or think of it this way, something chooses, your will or whatever one would like to call it. And for this it doesn't matter if your choices are limited or not.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #831 on: 29/03/2014 12:16:21 »
Let's go back to spin. If there is a principle defining spin, does it have to be a mechanism too? I differ between the idea of a 'hidden variable' becoming a hidden mechanism, and it being a property myself. In the second definition, as a mechanism, we have a way to predict the spin beforehand. In the one defining it as a property I don't think we will find a way.

And it fits my ideas, because a linear logic should disappear at that scale, although you still need properties defining what linear logic you meet 'inside' our SpaceTime.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #832 on: 29/03/2014 12:22:48 »
Assume that weak experiments work. That you can influence it to give you a predefined spin. Is that a example of spin being a (predestined) mechanism? Or is it a example of free will influencing that spin.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #833 on: 29/03/2014 12:31:31 »
And what does it make spin?
A example of free will?

I don't know, we just defined free will as something without logic, didn't we? Maybe that one needs to be redefined if so :) Let's instead call it something without a linear logic. No action and reaction.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #834 on: 29/03/2014 12:57:01 »
And there is one more thing. What does a free will need?
To be able to be defined as existing?

Outcomes?
And choices?
Laws, principles, rules and properties?

It definitely need outcomes.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #835 on: 29/03/2014 12:59:22 »
Without outcomes, does free will exist? We're going the other way here, aren't we? :) Using a linear logic to define what origin 'free will' might have.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #836 on: 29/03/2014 13:06:34 »
Outcomes need the SpaceTime we live in, defined by a arrow and 'c'.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #837 on: 29/03/2014 13:11:16 »
So, how do I want to define a 'free will'? As something needing outcomes, or not? If I think outcomes must be there for it, then 'free will' becomes a description from and inside a linear universe, having no other application. If I disregard outcomes for it, then a ideal 'free will' is something not following a linear logic.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #838 on: 29/03/2014 13:12:29 »
And if I think of it as a symmetry?
 

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #839 on: 29/03/2014 13:25:46 »
"Assume that weak experiments work. That you can influence it to give you a predefined spin. Is that a example of spin being a (predestined) mechanism? Or is it a example of free will influencing that spin."

It's not a example of predestination, but it can be seen as using 'free will' to finalize a outcome, which then is the spin you will measure it to have. But I need to use the 'symmetry' to define it this way, or presume that only outcomes can define free will. And the later one is wrong in my eyes, A free will is not the outcome.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #840 on: 29/03/2014 13:30:40 »
A free will defined this way becomes very close to the idea of spin, as a 50/50 probability, not the exact same but close. It's not the outcome that defines it, although inside our universe it is just that, that once made us start to wonder about what a free will mean.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #841 on: 29/03/2014 13:36:50 »
It's the exact same sort of reasoning that I use to point out that you can't avoid your local clock and ruler, measuring. But scaling down, superimposing frames of reference into one frame, the clock must disappear. You need 'c' to get to the most ideal clock I can imagine inside this universe. And 'c' is a description of light propagating over frames of reference.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #842 on: 29/03/2014 15:13:35 »
So, how about a revolution :)

That will entitle you, starting to think by yourself. You ready for that? It doesn't involve weapons, or killing anyone. Just you, using that mind of yours. And it will crumble empires.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #843 on: 29/03/2014 15:23:22 »
You just need to understand that you are born here, and die here, for it. You also need to see that there is noting differing one birth from another, or one death from another. When you live you live, and when you're dead you're dead. It's nothing to be scared of.

That's all there is to a real revolution. The rest is up to you, and your ethics.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #844 on: 29/03/2014 15:35:12 »
A lot of people see Snowden as a traitor, or want to portrait him as a stupid geek, becoming a 'evil hacker'. I don't, I think he know about what I wrote, maybe not in the same terms, but I'm sure he thought about it. Actually, you can't avoid it, it will come to you sooner or later. And what he chose was one kind of ethics, following his own ideals of democracy and justice. I think they are mine too, and I find those ideas more important than any empire existing, now or ever.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #845 on: 29/03/2014 15:41:22 »
you see, in the end you're here to dream. And those dreams will define you.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #846 on: 29/03/2014 15:48:09 »
have you ever thought of those not wanting to live here? You will find a lot, if you just look, you never wondered why? Or do you think you know? Then you also have a definition for what differ one birth from another, right? :) and one death from another I'm sure. And in your mind a revolution will not be possible.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #847 on: 29/03/2014 15:49:06 »
It's all in your mind.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #848 on: 29/03/2014 19:18:53 »
you see, in the end you're here to dream. And those dreams will define you.
I agree yor_on...........And in reality, maybe this place of dreams is where true freedom of will resides. The limits that reality puts on us in the physical world evaporates in the realm of our imagination and our dreams. Maybe this is where free will has it's proper domain, for there is little to be exercised during our waking moments.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #849 on: 18/04/2014 12:23:20 »
Ah well, been wondering about two things. Pete's definitions of mass, and photons :)

Pete defines mass as everything including a energy, and uses 'relativistic mass' to describe it. He has a really good point in that the mass of the sun also must include the 'photons' momentum as well as particles kinetic energy. Using this definition we also get a new understanding of the stress energy tensor. On the other hand, the definition of a rest mass is also a very understandable concept.

A invariant rest mass is good for me from the point of avoiding to define what I refer to as 'container ideas'. A container, in my thinking, might be seen as something proposing us all to be existent inside some sort of containing reference. What I suspect Einstein might have felt when saying that the moon must be there even if he looked away. Although it's even deeper that that to me. A container model is a archetype to me, inbuilt into us, even when referring to a 'limitless universe without bonds'.

I think I can use restmass for both descriptions, locally described as well as from a 'container model', but I find it harder to use relativistic mass, unless as used as a mathematical book keeping. You might say that from my view relativistic mass is a description of interactions between frames of reference.

Then we come to photons. Read a guy wondering about how 'seeing something' would be described, if we now only used photons to describe it? I don't think that's possible, you need to introduce waves to make it possible. On the other hand, that is what lights duality is all about. Two 'simultaneous' descriptions of a reality, depending on experimental setup/observer.

So yes, physics isn't about one singular definition of reality, it's adapting to you, in a way. This is not a popular attitude to it. Most want to find a mathematical expression, equation, that will cover it all, and explain observer dependencies. But maybe that will be found lacking, I think that point of view is lacking. It's not accepting the experiment, instead passing them by to look for some deeper, possibly theoretical, unification.

And that, as I see it, has to do with how much you rely on experiments, to define reality.
 

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #849 on: 18/04/2014 12:23:20 »

 

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