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Author Topic: The Exclusive Biological nature of Evolution via the natural selection :  (Read 17050 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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The biological evolution occurs via the ...natural selection ,dude.
You should try to enhance or to improve your knowledge of evolution .


Oh dear me! You really slept through Biology 101, Introduction to Logic, and Basic Common Sense, didn't you? Nor, it seems, have you read anything by Darwin.

Do you look exactly like both of your parents? Obviously not. As a consequence of the inherent instability of DNA, plus  the genetic lottery of sexual reproduction, you have evolved.   

When environmental pressures are such that only those who embrace logical thought can survive, you will be eliminated by natural selection.

The two mechanisms are not the same, nor even interdependent. But as Darwin observed, the successive application of natural selection to evolving generations results in the differentiation of species.
[/quote]

What do you mean the 2 mechanisms are not the same , from the materialistic perspective at least , considering the fact that we are allegedly just machines or robots driven by DNA via the natural selection of evolution , as Dawkins says here below :

How can consciousness, the mind, feelings , the thought process...be mechanical, or at least rise from our alleged mechanical biological systems ?

Dawkins says , as well, that we can "revolt against the selfish tyranny of our genes and against the "fact" that we were born selfish " : how are we supposed to do just that , if we are just machines ?

How can the mind ,consciousness, feelings , the thought process  , ...rise from mechanical biological  systems such as ours then ?

Once again, mind and body are certainly interdependent and do interact with each other .

That said : would you  just cut the crap, please , and tell me how the thought process can be mechanical ,or that it can rise from mechanical systems ?

Excerpts from Dawkins ' "Selfish Gene " :

Quote :
"
PREFACE TO FIRST EDITION
THIS book should be read almost as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, 'stranger than fiction' expresses exactly how I feel about the truth. We are survival machinesórobot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment. Though I have known it for years, I never seem to get fully used to it. One of my hopes is that I may have some success in astonishing others.
 " End Quote .


P.S.:

Let's just move to that consciousness thread , instead of wasting our energies on 3 related threads at the same time: consciousness , evolution and the scientific method are related to each other .
« Last Edit: 09/09/2013 16:52:37 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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You've confused the categories there - that's either carelessness or lack of understanding. Free will and good & evil are cultural constructs, the others evolved for very good reasons (literally life or death reasons)
They are not different categories , not in the sense that the one comes from Mars and the other comes from Venus at least , no : they are only different categories which take place at different levels of man : the one is biological and the other is a matter of consciousness shaped by the environment and by world views , not to mention that consciousness has a biological sort of basis also it cannot escape from  .
Exactly - they're not different in a way I didn't describe, but they are different in the way I did describe. Well done.

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What you cannot understand is how consciousness or the mind ( I see the human mind or consciousness as a whole process which contains intelligence , emotions, feelings , imagination ...) can rise from those biological mechanical processes ?
As far as I'm aware, no-one understands that completely. There are many hypotheses of varying plausibility and many opinions about those plausibilities. Perhaps you'd care to share your own hypothesis?

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I made a  mistake though when i used to say that Dawkins and co are the real true materialists : they are not , in fact : simply because they do think like yourself via that magical romantic side when it comes to mind and body , cultures, societies , ethics ,free will, good and evil ...

The only real materialist here i have seen is : David Cooper :
Aww, you mean I'm relegated to the ranks of losers like Dawkins & co, while David Cooper is now the only True Scotsman Materialisttm?

It seems like only yesterday I was being accused of not following the guidance of Dawkins & co... oh, wait, it was yesterday ;)

See my reply to our alancalverd here above : see that Dawkins' quote as well there about the "fact or truth " that we are just machines or robots driven by DNA through the natural selection of evolution , i did copy and paste from Dawkins ' "Selfish Gene "

In the thread concerning consciousness, i will post some more Dawkins' quotes from that same book of his on the subject ,so, we can discuss that there ,instead of wasting energy on 3 related topics at the same time

Deal?.
 

Offline alancalverd

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What do you mean the 2 mechanisms are not the same

Exactly that. Evolution is an endogenous consequence of the reproduction of living things. Selection is a consequence of their environment - exogenous. 

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from the materialistic perspective at least , considering the fact that we are allegedly just machines or robots driven by DNA via the natural selection of evolution , as Dawkins says here below :

How can consciousness, the mind, feelings , the thought process...be mechanical, or at least rise from our alleged mechanical biological systems ? etc.....

You see? Dawkins did not confuse natural selection with evolution, any more than Darwin or any person with half a brain would.

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Let's just move to that consciousness thread , instead of wasting our energies on 3 related threads at the same time: consciousness , evolution and the scientific method are related to each other . [/size]

No way! So far, nobody has defined consciousness. and I won't get involved an an argument where nobody knows what anyone else is talking about. No problem with the scientific method: I think we all know what it purports to be, but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it being invented by muslims, whereas I have seen it used by a gorilla with no known religious persuasion. Little point in arguing with you about that, but I would abjure you to look more closely at the behaviour of other mammals, and to consider the pre-islamic origins of Chinese medicine, or its use by Aristarchus, 1000 years before the Prophet was born..   
 

Offline dlorde

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see that Dawkins' quote as well there about the "fact or truth " that we are just machines or robots driven by DNA through the natural selection of evolution...
Quite right; but that doesn't mean we can't identify and label particular behaviours and traits, and attribute certain abstract qualities to them. In fact, as you well know, that's exactly what we have done.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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see that Dawkins' quote as well there about the "fact or truth " that we are just machines or robots driven by DNA through the natural selection of evolution...
Quite right; but that doesn't mean we can't identify and label particular behaviours and traits, and attribute certain abstract qualities to them. In fact, as you well know, that's exactly what we have done.

You do not get it yet , do you ?

How, on earth , are  we supposed to be able to accomplish such a magical trick or extraordinary performance , if we are just determined machines robots then ?

You tell me , mr. great illusionist . make my day .

Thanks , bye , gotta go . i spent too much time here i can hardly afford , but it was worth it though , i must add indeed, to be honest .
 

Offline dlorde

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see that Dawkins' quote as well there about the "fact or truth " that we are just machines or robots driven by DNA through the natural selection of evolution...
Quite right; but that doesn't mean we can't identify and label particular behaviours and traits, and attribute certain abstract qualities to them. In fact, as you well know, that's exactly what we have done.
How, on earth , are  we supposed to be able to accomplish such a magical trick or extraordinary performance , if we are just determined machines robots then ?
What's magical about identifying patterns and abstracting their salient features as generics? We already have neural network based systems that can do that kind of thing.

You may be limiting your capability to follow these ideas by too simplistic a concept of machines or robots. Even non-biological machines can learn and adapt, and be creative.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Postscript re evolution and selection - just thought of an example whilst walking the dog.

The Smiths have two children, Alice and Bob, both fit and fertile. Parents have no food allergies but Alice is allergic to nuts and Bob is allergic to fish. All perfectly everyday consequences of the endogenous variability of genetic inheritance - evolution.

Now the corrupt and incompetent European Union bans the import of nuts (because Brazil nuts are radioactive) and insists everyone must eat fish on Fridays (because the Pope will excommunicate the EU Commission otherwise). So Bob dies and Alice lives. Environmental selection has taken place, and all the descendants of the Smith family have a genetic predisposition to a nut allergy, but can survive in the EU where the only nuts are in charge.

All Darwin did was to suggest that this is probably what happened to the Galapagos finches.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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see that Dawkins' quote as well there about the "fact or truth " that we are just machines or robots driven by DNA through the natural selection of evolution...
Quite right; but that doesn't mean we can't identify and label particular behaviours and traits, and attribute certain abstract qualities to them. In fact, as you well know, that's exactly what we have done.
How, on earth , are  we supposed to be able to accomplish such a magical trick or extraordinary performance , if we are just determined machines robots then ?
What's magical about identifying patterns and abstracting their salient features as generics? We already have neural network based systems that can do that kind of thing.

You may be limiting your capability to follow these ideas by too simplistic a concept of machines or robots. Even non-biological machines can learn and adapt, and be creative.

I am not talking about that : what i mean is mainly : how can the mechanical brain give rise to abstract approaches  ?

Get it ?

A mechanical system or mechanical brain cannot generate abstract concepts , abstract approaches ...not in a conscious way .

Le's move back to consciousness thread , once again .

Deal ?
 

Offline dlorde

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I am not talking about that : what i mean is mainly : how can the mechanical brain give rise to abstract approaches  ?
What, precisely do you mean by 'abstract approaches' ?

Quote
A mechanical system or mechanical brain cannot generate abstract concepts , abstract approaches ...not in a conscious way .
What is the 'conscious way' of generating abstracts, and how do you know it's different from how a machine can do it?

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Le's move back to consciousness thread , once again .
I never moved away from it. I posted there only yesterday.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 17:34:35 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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I am not talking about that : what i mean is mainly : how can the mechanical brain give rise to abstract approaches  ?
What, precisely do you mean by 'abstract approaches' ?

Quote
A mechanical system or mechanical brain cannot generate abstract concepts , abstract approaches ...not in a conscious way .
What is the 'conscious way' of generating abstracts, and how do you know it's different from how a machine can do it?

Quote
Le's move back to consciousness thread , once again .
I never moved away from it. I posted there only yesterday.
[/quote]

Look , it would save our energy to just stick to one thread : the one about  consciousness .

I did reformulate my above mentioned question to you differently in that thread .
See ya there then .

Let's just "drop " this thread , and focuss only on that other one regarding consciousness.

Deal ?  Thanks .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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This thread is closed = I will not respond to any posts here from now on .
Thanks .
 

Offline alancalverd

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I will take that as an acceptance of my arguments. Delighted to have been of help.
 

Offline dlorde

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I will take that as an acceptance of my arguments. Delighted to have been of help.
:)
 

Offline cheryl j

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This thread = "the brain is more than biology."
 Question:  "Okay, what is the "more than part?" Answer: "I have no freaking idea or I won't tell you. Prove me wrong." Rinse, Repeat.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 02:31:06 by cheryl j »
 

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