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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 307279 times)

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1025 on: 01/12/2013 15:30:58 »
And I am also writing a book entitled; What, on Earth, is Intelligence?

I'm anxious to examine the acute differences between Consciousness, which is missing from the equation in this thread, and Intelligence, which has been exercised by many contributors here but not appropriated by it's author.

...........................Ethos
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1026 on: 01/12/2013 17:46:14 »


I haven't read it yet , i have read just the introduction which is displayed here above , as you can see : it was recommended to me by some friends on the field .

The introduction pretty summarizes up the content of the book : pretty demolishing for materialism,and that by an ex-materialist such as Chalmers  .


Oh, well, that settles it then. Thanks so much.

Did I mention I'm writing a book as well? Here's the introduction:

"In chapter one, I present a solution the Riemann Hypothesis in mathematics and solve the P vs NP problem. Then in chapter two,  I show how to detect gravity waves (itís easier than you think!) Moving on to chemistry, I explain why some enzymes exhibit faster than diffusion kinetics. Chapter four  provides a quick and easy translation of the previously undeciphered  language of Rongorongo, and in Chapter five I predict the stock market returns for the next ten years. Chapter six explains the cause of Fibromyalgia (turns out it really is caused by garden gnomes Ė who knew?) and in chapter seven, I  disclose the location of Jimmy Hoffaís remains, as well as all of the socks that go missing in the laundry and the unmatched lids to plastic containers. Finally, in chapter eight, I balance the budgets of several nations in a fair and equitable way, and solve world hunger."

If you donít have time to read my book, donít worry,  itís all pretty much right there in the introduction.
[/quote]

Do you want me to display the whole book here , come on :
I gave you its introduction + a link which summarizes the content of that book + the comments of people there who actually read it ...

What do you want more ?

I can even give you a link where you can download that whole book for free and safely as well, if you want to .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1027 on: 01/12/2013 17:49:43 »
Why have you still not answered my question?

That was not a question , just a quiz
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1028 on: 01/12/2013 17:57:25 »
I am interested only in his refutation of materialism...  regarding that book ,the latter i haven't read yet...
Says it all really.

Not really : i am just not interested in his property dualism , that's all .
What interests me in that book of his is the fact that he realises that materialism cannot account for consciousness , and hence materialism is false , which also means that the current  materialist mainstream  "scientific world view " is also false , logically : the latter fact has been my  main or core presented issue here , and therefore the assertion that  "the mind is in the  brain , or that the mind is just the product of the physical brain's activity" is just a materialist belief assumption that  is also false ....to mention just that .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1029 on: 01/12/2013 18:06:39 »
And I am also writing a book entitled; What, on Earth, is Intelligence?

I'm anxious to examine the acute differences between Consciousness, which is missing from the equation in this thread, and Intelligence, which has been exercised by many contributors here but not appropriated by it's author.

...........................Ethos

Well, genius ,your false sarcasm or irony might hit you back in the face ,  as a launched boomerang that misses its intended target(s) , as follows :

The fact that the false materialist conception of nature has been taken for granted as the "scientific  world view " for so long now , by the majority of scientists ,and by most people as well , including all of you here thus , is evidence enough for the fact that cognitive intelligence is certainly not the highest form of human intelligence or intellect .
You have to extend or develop your own consciousness ,especially your imagination,  as to be able to grasp that fact .

No wonder that Einstein said once :

" Imagination is more important than knowledge " .

Einstein knew  that fact  ,first hand,from experience  : without his great imagery imagination , he would never have been able to come up with his relativity theory .

His brain was preserved for more than 40 years ,after his death of course ,as to study it , in order to "understand" his exceptional intelligence , so it seems , but those silly  materialist scientists who were attempting to do just the latter were just assuming , materialistically thus ,  that "human intelligence is in the brain, as the mind is in the brain" , not knowing that there materialism was false , and hence neither human intelligence ( there are many forms of the latter : social, cognitive , mathematical, psychological, emotional  , existential, spiritual ,and other forms of human intelligence ) ,and hence neither human intelligence , nor human consciousness, the mind  or imagination are "in the brain " .



« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 18:21:50 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1030 on: 01/12/2013 18:28:58 »
And I am also writing a book entitled; What, on Earth, is Intelligence?

I'm anxious to examine the acute differences between Consciousness, which is missing from the equation in this thread, and Intelligence, which has been exercised by many contributors here but not appropriated by it's author.

...........................Ethos

Well, genius
Well sir, I thank you for the compliment. Nevertheless, that comment only proves your inability to distinguish truth from error. I'm no genius and neither are you sir. I challenged you once before in this thread to convince us with repeatable evidence and you chose to ignore my challenge. Typical behavior from someone who is only seeking attention. I reiterate, offering you this attention is a waste of time and as a remedy, I suggest we all apply this cure to the question.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1031 on: 01/12/2013 18:37:30 »
Do you want me to display the whole book here , come on :
I gave you its introduction + a link which summarizes the content of that book + the comments of people there who actually read it ...

What do you want more ?

Well,  one would expect you to have read it before deeming it a crushing blow to materialism. Just sayin'.

Quote
I can even give you a link where you can download that whole book for free and safely as well, if you want to .

Thanks. At the moment, though, I'm busy reading the Table of Contents of several important novels. I much prefer the Table of Contents of Dostoevsky's works to Tolstoy's.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 18:47:42 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1032 on: 01/12/2013 19:36:08 »
Do you want me to display the whole book here , come on :
I gave you its introduction + a link which summarizes the content of that book + the comments of people there who actually read it ...

What do you want more ?

Well,  one would expect you to have read it before deeming it a crushing blow to materialism. Just sayin'.

Be serious ,lady , ok ?
The introduction of that book i displayed here above + its summary as displayed in that link i did provide + the comments of people in the latter link + some of my friends ' comments on the book + Sheldrake's talk about Chalmers in some of his books on the subject of materialism + ....+....are reasons enough to assume that Chalmers has been devastating for materialism ,and he's not the only one who has done just that .

I just wanted to give you a  taste of that ,just to stimulate you in trying to find out about all the overwhelming evidence against materialism, yourselves  .

Quote
Quote
I can even give you a link where you can download that whole book for free and safely as well, if you want to .

Thanks. At the moment, though, I'm busy reading the Table of Contents of several important novels. I much prefer the Table of Contents of Dostoevsky's works to Tolstoy's.

Good read then .
Dostoyevsky  was one of my favourite writers ...once .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1033 on: 01/12/2013 19:38:45 »
And I am also writing a book entitled; What, on Earth, is Intelligence?

I'm anxious to examine the acute differences between Consciousness, which is missing from the equation in this thread, and Intelligence, which has been exercised by many contributors here but not appropriated by it's author.

...........................Ethos

Well, genius
Well sir, I thank you for the compliment. Nevertheless, that comment only proves your inability to distinguish truth from error. I'm no genius and neither are you sir. I challenged you once before in this thread to convince us with repeatable evidence and you chose to ignore my challenge. Typical behavior from someone who is only seeking attention. I reiterate, offering you this attention is a waste of time and as a remedy, I suggest we all apply this cure to the question.

Be serious : "genius " was no compliment ,if you haven't noticed yet already .
And...I am a free man haha , and hence i do decide myself to whom i might respond or not .
Sue me then haha .

P.S.: Try to say something relevant to this thread's subject , otherwise,  just have the decency to be silent then ,deal ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1034 on: 01/12/2013 19:44:49 »
Can someone here try to tell me why physicists have been trying to come up with some sort of a  "theory of everything " = theory of nothing ?, since science is not about definite holistic knowledge , just about approximate conjectures,just about temporary knowledge ... .

Use your imagination then haha , since "Imagination is more important than knowledge " ...

Human imagination and creativity that have been behind many ...scientific discoveries,behind many great works of world literature  , music , philosophy ...................

Ask our friends Einstein, Shekespeare , Dickens, Dostoyevsky , Popper ,Cervantes ....William Golding ....Ask Alice in wonderland also ,if you do not believe me ,or just her brothers Marx, Freud , or just her little bros ...Dawkins ,Dennett .... : not to mention Frankenstein's monster ,or the modern ...Prometheus haha . .

Have fun, folks, life is too short .

Don't take yourselves too seriously as to become some weird odd  tragic-hilarious versions of Cervante's Don Quixote haha : i am not immune to the latter ...either .

That fictitious Don Quixote was / is and will  always be an endless source of inspiration , an endless sources of realising the fact we are all inclined to forget about : putting things into perspective ,an endless source of  fun at least ....you have no idea .
Don't become boring doll ,uninteresting , uninspiring , not-funny , unimaginative  or silly ,dry black-holes versions of Don Quixote then .

All the best then .
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 20:06:50 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1035 on: 01/12/2013 20:12:51 »
Why have you still not answered my question?

That was not a question , just a quiz

And that makes it impossible to answer?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1036 on: 01/12/2013 20:17:54 »
... The introduction of that book i displayed here above + its summary as displayed in that link i did provide + the comments of people in the latter link + some of my friends ' comments on the book + Sheldrake's talk about Chalmers in some of his books on the subject of materialism + ....+....are reasons enough to assume that Chalmers has been devastating for materialism ,and he's not the only one who has done just that .
Be sure to let us know when the 'devastation' of materialism produces something useful or interesting.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1037 on: 01/12/2013 20:24:16 »
Can someone here try to tell me why physicists have been trying to come up with some sort of a  "theory of everything " = theory of nothing ?, since science is not about definite holistic knowledge , just about approximate conjectures,just about temporary knowledge ... .
The label 'Theory of Everything' was a somewhat sarcastic description for a theory that would reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics, in much the same way as 'The Big Bang' was a mocking description for the start of the expanding universe. They both caught the eye of the media and the public imagination. I'd be surprised if any intelligent person take 'Theory of Everything' entirely literally.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1038 on: 01/12/2013 20:25:37 »
In short :

Once again , old Popper's extremely visionnary,inspiring , enlightening and far reaching writings do whisper to us the fact that any metaphysical theory of nature in science   , including materialism thus+  its extensions  , should be just temporary untill they get falsified successfully by another alternate competitive theory of nature ,with more explanatory power ,the same  process would go for the latter also eventually , and so on .

Materialism cannot account for consciousness, and hence materialism is ...false, not to mention the fact that materialism has been becoming so unfalsifiable ,as to be 'confirmed or corroborated verified predicted " by everything , that it cannot but be ,not only unscientific , but also ...false  .

That there seems to be no alternate serious competitive better falsifiable theory of nature with more explanatory power out there yet , does not mean there is none : it is just that the very nature of consciousness is so challenging and difficult that current humanity is not yet able to come up with any seriously faslifiable theory of consciousness : there is in fact no seriously falsifiable theory of consciousness out there yet with more explanatory power than the rest ,including the materialist one that's obviously false  .

Let's hope some genius , in the future, would come up with such a revolutionary theory then, that might revolutionize our own understandings of ourselves and the universe as a result ,simply because consciousness is nowadays both THE obstacle and THE key to any revolutionary understanding of ourselves and the universe : there is nothing more important than understanding our own consciousness thus, understanding or lack of it that do have serious implications for us all ,as everybody can see , even in this thread  .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1039 on: 01/12/2013 20:45:16 »
Can someone here try to tell me why physicists have been trying to come up with some sort of a  "theory of everything " = theory of nothing ?, since science is not about definite holistic knowledge , just about approximate conjectures,just about temporary knowledge ... .
The label 'Theory of Everything' was a somewhat sarcastic description for a theory that would reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics, in much the same way as 'The Big Bang' was a mocking description for the start of the expanding universe. They both caught the eye of the media and the public imagination. I'd be surprised if any intelligent person take 'Theory of Everything' entirely literally.

You're either not using your  own God-given  imagination or you do have almost ...none , sorry :

I have been also sarcastic and ironic regarding that theory of "everything " , that's why i have been equating it with ...nothing , all along,if you haven't noticed just that already  .

But ,at the other hand ,  ironically and paradoxically spaking : does the current materialistic science , thanks to materialism thus , does it not try to explaing
Quote
everything
just in terms of phyics and chemistry then ? Does it not ? : "everything " that cannot explain in fact ...anything : i hope that you would be able to detect the subtlety of the latter .

Since " all is matter ,including the mind " ,as materialistic science , and hence as the materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been assuming , then , it's pretty logical to try to explain "everything " = nothing( Try to detect the subtle relative meaning  of the latter as well, while you are at it then ) ,just in terms of physics and chemistry alone thus ,which means that materialism cannot but "explain everything = nothing " via just matter as the presumed only reality out there = any theory of nature that  "intrinsically can explain everything = nothing " is thus unfalsifiable and thus ...unscientific , not to mention ...false .

Materialism that's no better than religious dualism ,the latter that tries to explain "everything =nothing " also ,just in terms of ...God .
Materialism is in fact much lower than religious dualism ,simply because materialism is intrinsically a half blind freak of nature haha , metaphorically and amusingly speaking then, as to be looking at reality just through a key hole , it has been taking for the whole ...real thing out there : how freakish haha , kidding ,odd weird absurd surreal implausible , idiotic .... can materialism ever be indeed , the more when we see how materialism has been taken for granted for so long now, without question, as no-less ...wao ....than the "scientific world view " ..

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1040 on: 01/12/2013 20:49:09 »
Why have you still not answered my question?

That was not a question , just a quiz

And that makes it impossible to answer?

You don't know the difference between a serious question and a ...quiz ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1041 on: 01/12/2013 21:02:03 »
Popper's epistemological writings regarding science as falsification,science  as an evolutionary process of try and error  , do also explain "everything " =nothing in that regard ,ironically metaphorically speaking then , that they cannot but be "not -entirely" ..."true" or "not-entirely" ....rational (See Hume's true logical rejection of induction in the sense that it can also be applied to Popper  also ,in the above mentioned sense at least . )   .
Some other genius might enlighten us  thus  ,in the future , regarding the still-unknown-to-us-all other  kinds of evolutionary human epistemological processes not yet discovered as such yet ,with more explanatory power , that might replace those of Popper as well, and so on ...
Who knows ?
Note that the epistemology of Popper does not go only for science , but also for religion, politics , economics and the rest , ironically paradoxically enough, in the inductive sense ,wao, induction that was logically rejected by Hume   .

Popper can be relatively refuted via his own epistemological and other thought that were based on his relatively brilliant solution regarding Hume's logical rejection of induction , Popper's relatively brilliant solution that could not make the fact go away that Hume's rejection of incdution was logically true , just by assuming that induction does not exist as such ,or just by saying that humans ' thought or science cannot be inductive,simply because i do think that induction does exist as such , humans can only try to approach though ,but can never reach ,since human knowledge is only ....temporary and evolutionary , not definite or complete .

In short :

I cannot be but a-priori be inclined to relatively reject or be suspicious of any theories that can intrinsically explain "everything " = nothing , metaphorically speaking .
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 21:20:42 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1042 on: 01/12/2013 21:34:49 »
In short :

We , as human beings , do need some relative degrees of regularity ,conformity,  stability ,security ,systems  of reference and continuity to be able to conduct our lives through a sense of comfort and ease security ,as to develop habits we take for true ,including our scientific temporary knowledge ,including the laws of physics : even the notion of laws is a human ...projection .

Laws imply that they are fixed and unchanged or eternal  ,static ,(even though social and other laws do get changed from time to time ), while everything is evolutionary in this universe in fact .

We should thus never be too comfortable and certain as to take our habits and knowledge as ...true : Hume's rejection of induction does tell us they are not .

Nothing is in fact absolutely certain in life but ...death .

You tell me ...
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 21:37:48 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1043 on: 01/12/2013 22:12:02 »
Why have you still not answered my question?

That was not a question , just a quiz

And that makes it impossible to answer?

You don't know the difference between a serious question and a ...quiz ?

The reason he won't answer a simple question like the one you asked is that he doesn't want to clarify his position.
As Popper says, keeping your theory vague, makes it harder to refute.
But as he also says, making it unfalsifiable makes it pseudoscience. 

I don't see anything "quiz like" about what you asked. It's a simple dodge on his part.

Here is your question again, along with mine:

    Which of these three statements best describes your stance?

    (1) All aspects of the immaterial can be verified scientifically.
    (2) Some aspects of the immaterial can be verified scientifically, but others cannot.
    (3) No aspects of the immaterial can be verified scientifically.


Which of these approximates your view of chemistry and physics?

1)Some things can, but others canít be explained by chemistry or physics  or

 2)Everything always involves an immaterial explanation, even if there is sometimes chemistry and physics involved in the process,    or

3)Chemistry and physics do not explain anything that happens. They do not matter at all, they are irrelevant. They explain nothing. They explain nothing by themselves or even when combined with a immaterial explanation.
« Last Edit: 02/12/2013 00:04:10 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1044 on: 01/12/2013 22:21:46 »
Can someone here try to tell me why physicists have been trying to come up with some sort of a  "theory of everything " = theory of nothing ?, since science is not about definite holistic knowledge , just about approximate conjectures,just about temporary knowledge ... .

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, that was your big criticism of science, that it wasn't holistic enough, and the holistic approach, as well as ancient teachings, was the key to understanding consciousness.

Quote
Use your imagination then haha , since "Imagination is more important than knowledge " ...

Human imagination and creativity that have been behind many ...scientific discoveries,behind many great works of world literature  , music , philosophy ...................

For someone who's so keen on imagination, you can't explain those "whole new vistas" that you imagine that science will explore once it is free of materialism, and still can't imagine an example of an experiment to test the immaterial.

[/quote]

« Last Edit: 02/12/2013 01:40:33 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1045 on: 01/12/2013 23:28:41 »
...Nothing is in fact absolutely certain in life but ...death .
Close; it was Benjamin Franklin who said, "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1046 on: 01/12/2013 23:33:13 »
Quote
Popper's epistemological writings regarding science as falsification,

Wrong. Please read Popper before misquoting him. His ideas weren't original or even particularly profound, but you do him a disservice by not understanding them.

And if materialism really has been devastated, why didn't I feel the shockwave? 
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 23:37:11 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1047 on: 02/12/2013 01:17:59 »
Why have you still not answered my question?

That was not a question , just a quiz

And that makes it impossible to answer?

You don't know the difference between a serious question and a ...quiz ?
The fact that you keep twisting words to dodge the question is rather revealing. If quizzes are impossible to answer, then you'd better go correct the school system about their wrong ways. My options were "all", "some" and "none". That covers all the bases. What fourth option could exist?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1048 on: 02/12/2013 03:13:19 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte
  social, cognitive , mathematical, psychological, emotional  , existential, spiritual ,and other forms of human intelligence ) ,and hence neither human intelligence , nor human consciousness, the mind  or imagination are "in the brain " .
So please tell us, pray tell; Where would you suggest we find these attributes? Would you dare to suggest another location for their habitation? You've made the statement, yes? Now support it with evidence...........and if you can't.................you're nothing more than a Hoax!
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1049 on: 02/12/2013 12:29:03 »
Feynman said science involves:
1. Making a guess (hypothesis) about the explanation for some real world observation.
2. Calculating the implications of that guess.
3. Testing to see whether those implications are borne out in the real world.

Clearly the guess must have calculable implications that can be tested.

Don has made a guess about consciousness. Unfortunately, by invoking the absence of material causation and the unknown, there are no known implications, and nothing testable.

By framing it in terms of what it is not (i.e. consciousness is not of material origin) one might assume that it could be falsified by demonstrating the converse (i.e. that it is of material origin). However, the lack of positive definition of 'immaterial'  means that no matter how much detailed evidence we collect that points to consciousness having a material origin, no matter how detailed the neural correlates of conscious behaviour, he can claim some non-material controlling influence, whether at the sub-atomic level, the biochemical level, the neural level, or the whole brain level, without fear of disproof. By reductio-ad-absurdum, it becomes clear that, in general, the immaterial hypothesis is no explanation at all, it is valueless as it adds nothing to our existing understanding and predicts nothing. It is the argument from ignorance combined with the argument from incredulity and follows the same logical progression as the god-of-the-gaps argument.

It's reminiscent of a shaman who claims that a motor car is motivated by spirits; when told it is the internal combustion engine, he says that spirits make that work; when the mechanism is explained, he says spirits make the spark and ignite the fuel; when electricity and fuel combustion are explained, he says they're controlled by spirits; and so-on. Ultimately, a fully detailed explanation of the car is made, down to the quantum mechanical level, which the shaman insists is the work of spirits. What difference does the shaman's explanation make? what use is it?

Consciousness, of course, is a subtler problem, because no matter how detailed our elucidation and understanding of the neural construction of consciousness, we still have the existential problem of subjective experience, the sense of self, the experience of qualia, and it would seem that no amount of objective explanation can explain the subjective.

Looking at creatures like the octopus, which despite having a completely different nervous system from any vertebrate, shows strong evidence of a limited consciousness and self-awareness, my hunch is that we'll find that subjective experience is a feature of sufficiently complex flexible and adaptive goal-driven learning systems; i.e. if you are one, you will have some level of awareness and subjective experience.

I may be wrong, there may be a different explanation, or the explanation may remain unknown, but what seems clear for now, is that the negatively defined 'immaterial' hypothesis asserted here by Don (without supporting argument or evidence), explains nothing and can explain nothing. It is a redundant distraction.
« Last Edit: 02/12/2013 12:32:21 by dlorde »
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1049 on: 02/12/2013 12:29:03 »

 

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