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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 308467 times)

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #125 on: 12/09/2013 15:46:10 »
I haven't called in a mod. I just think that when a thread starts attempting to commit suicide repeatedly like this one, it may be kindest just to help it on its way. I've given up a significant amount of my time to share some ideas with someone who was asking for such ideas, and while for a time he appeared to be modifying his position in some places, he now appears to have thrown away all his gains and retreated back into his original position. I have no complaint about that whatsoever, but it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #126 on: 12/09/2013 17:08:45 »
This western materialistic secular atheistic civilization has been taking over  this planet and humanity for so long now that it is about time indeed to deliver both this planet and humanity from the tyranny of this so-called civilization ,despite the latter's huge material scientific and technological advances , a so-called civilization that has been turning humans into just consumptive superficial hollow machines zombies indeed , with no consciousness whatsoever ,depriving most  humans of their fundamental primary quality of them all = consciousness ,in the process  .

I have the feeling our planet have been taken over by apes, by  western mechanical  Eurocentric mainstream racist paternalistic imperialist white apes zombies , to be more precize ,ironically enough  = the planet of the mechanical white apes zombies ,mechanical white apes  zombies humanity gotta be liberated from, sooner or later= inevitable = just a matter of time thus  .

...........
Real apes  animals out there in your natural habitat : i am sorry for offending you indeed ,by calling others by your names  : i know you would understand ...

So what's the plan? - or was that just more empty rhetoric?.

Those were no rhetorics , just facts on the reality ground : materialism has also been hijacking science for more than 5 centuries now , while excluding all non-materialistic paradigms or world views in the process .

Besides, it is a fact that white western Eurocentrism has been taking over this planet and humanity for more than 5 centuries now as well :

I couldn't help but make reference to that  planet of the apes  analogy in that regard ,so.


 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #127 on: 12/09/2013 17:31:58 »
... it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.

Yup, that about sums it up.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #128 on: 12/09/2013 18:48:58 »
I haven't called in a mod. I just think that when a thread starts attempting to commit suicide repeatedly like this one, it may be kindest just to help it on its way. I've given up a significant amount of my time to share some ideas with someone who was asking for such ideas, and while for a time he appeared to be modifying his position in some places, he now appears to have thrown away all his gains and retreated back into his original position. I have no complaint about that whatsoever, but it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.

(I think that telling stories can help : they work perfectly when it comes to my kids at least, no offense  )

You do sound to me like those earlier fanatic intolerant exclusive medieval jesuites on a mission who used to think it was a privilege for "primitive " peoples to receive the "light"  of christianity they should be grateful  for  .

Great philosopher Sir Muhammad Iqbal said once on the subject , or in words to that same effect at least , the following :(He studied western philosophy both in Oxford and in Berlin by the way ,as he was knighted by the Queen of England back then for his brilliant poetry works  ) :

An English Gentleman told me once he hated the jews , because they thought of themselves as the choosen people of God .A belief which implies and maybe justifies contempt of other peoples .
He did not remember that the phrase " White Man's Burden " contains the same belief in a different garb .


..............

So,stop this silly paternalism of yours , emotional blackmail or pleading i cannot stand , please : pathetic

Do not flatter yourself too much , dude : you do seem to lack the most important form of intelligence or most important form of intellect of them all , mainly thanks to that mechanical spirit of yours (Heart's intelligence as the highest form of intelligence or intellect , heart as no emotions feelings , or biological organ , once again. Heart as intuition or intuitive insights : informed experienced developed extended intuition, not the ordinary intuition that 's not really reliable though  ) as apparent genuises such as Stephen Hawking , Dawkins  ...do by the way .

Thare are also many other forms of intelligence ...Intelligence is also and certainly a relative concept : we might be relatively  intelligent in some areas  and totally or relatively stupid in other ones   ...
.........
There was a story my grandma used to tell me when i was a kid that goes a bit like this, in order to cheer me out when i was afraid of the dark  :

A pretentious arrogant full of himself scholar wanted to cross a certain river to get to the other part of it via a little boat managed by an old man : when the scholar got on board , he could not stop bragging about his knowledge on this and that , then he turned his attention to the silent humble old man and asked him whether he happened to know about this and that .

The old man said : Look, sir , i do not know much , all i know is how to get people where they wanna go through this river , via this boat , in order to be able to make a decent living .

The scholar responded :  well, you ignorance made you lose  half of your life for nothing .

A storm suddenly turned the little boat upside down ,and both passengers found themselves on water .

The old man asked the pretentious scholar whether he knew how to swim : no , said the latter .

Well, you 're about to lose your whole life ....


...

Another pretentious full of himself scholar was informed by the great wisdom of a buddhist monk he went to see what the guy was all about for himself :

That scholar would not stop bragging about his supposed knowledge ...so, that humble silent monk proposed tea : when the monk was pouring tea for the scholar , he did not stop doing that even when the tea cup was full : the scholar said to him : stop, the cup is overfull and the table is covered by tea , can"t you see that ? Are you stupid ? .

The monk responded : when a tea cup is full, it cannot be filled with anythingelse = you scholar are like that : you gotta be emptied first .
.............
The "value " of that silly IQ test is like trying to "capture "  beauty via measuring
the size of the nose , of the cheeks, the hips .....I did extremely well in that stupid IQ test i do not see any value in though .
...........
Well, there were  no suicide attempts being committed by this or on this thread ,that's a rather  hilarious  peculiar weird way of putting things .

I do appreciate your time spent on this thread i could do perfectly without , i must admit , to be honest , but i do not see it as some kindda altruism, "charity" , goodness ...i should be "grateful " for .... .

You lack also that subtle sensitive humanistic patient ...pedagogy you could accomplish "miracles " by , if you only tried to develop it in yourself = I do not see how a machine like yourself can do just that,maybe you can, who knows  .

If you happened to have expected some reward or reciprocity by spending all that time here as a transaction , in the form or shape of changing my mind on the subject of this thread as a reward for being so "generous " as to shed your mechanical "light " on the supposed " darkness or ignorance of my heart and mind " : just know it does not work like that ,and i do not believe in scratch my back and i will scratch yours either , and i certainly cannot stand arrogant pretentious people who might think they have the monopoly of the truth other people should be grateful for receiving as a privilege  ...

You can keep on talking about your mechanical world view all you want : i cannot share it whith you, not in a million years even : i did specify why ,relatively speaking .

But when one crosses the line of respect , decency, courtesy  ...by calling his opponents names , by stating that as a fact even, by insulting people's relative intelligence ,just because they cannot swallow one's world views on the subject  then , there can be no room for constructive or productive discussions, no room for discussions at all   .

P.S.: Even prophets themselves who were sent to people in order to transmit their received messages to them , those prophets were explicitly ordered to be subtle in that by being patient , gentle kind nice , without hurting people's feelings , without calling people names ...

Who then the hell do you think  you are , in comparison ? That's no comparison in fact , not even remotely close = just an anlogy .

Even prophet Moses himself was not wise or patient open-minded enough  to be able to handle the subtle truths of a wiser guy he met :

That wiser guy, so to speak , said to Moses when the latter insisted on accompanying  him , in order to learn from his superior wisdom ,that wiser guy said : you cannot handle the truth :

Moses promissed to do his best in that regard :

After getting on board of a humble boat owned by some poor guys , that wiser guy damaged  some part of it.

Moses was  outraged : how can you reward the goodness of these poor people who accepted to take us on board for free , by harming their boat , this evil way ? ,he shouted to the wiser guy .

The latter answered : there is a ruthless unjust king out there who likes to rob people from their property , so, i damaged the boat , in order to make that king ignora this boat of these poor people as their only source of living . I told you you cannot handle the truth .

Moses promissed again that he would try to be patient and not object a-priori to any potential future mysterious behaviour of the wiser guy ...

In short : they went through 2 other similar incidents Moses could not understand or handle at first sight , the wiser guy explained his perfectly logical behaviour that seemed mysterious and evil to Moses at first sight .

After the third incident , both went their separate ways , as a result .

Final note :

Who's the wiser guy here , i do not pretend to be just that in fact , maybe you are ,who knows ?

Obvious inevitable solution ? : Let's go our separate ways .

Deal ?



 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #129 on: 12/09/2013 19:01:44 »
... it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.
Quote
Yup, that about sums it up.

No wonder = very predictable= 2 machanical soul mates agreeing with each other ...no wonder ...

I also happen to agree with the both of you indeed , ironically enough, for opposite totally different reasons = all roads do lead to Rome, so it seems at least .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #130 on: 12/09/2013 19:04:00 »
I told you you cannot handle the truth , didn't I ? But , i am no wiser guy though .
Try to figure that out, or not , who cares  .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #131 on: 12/09/2013 19:16:52 »
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

So, let's just let some intellectually ( Your reductionistic mechanical approach of human or other intellect can only make you utter such non-sense in that regard ) superior chimp figure that out for us all indeed , from your exclusively mechanical perspective at least , i do not share with you , not even remotely close , no way .

May i have that privilege freedom or right ? i am perfectly entiteld to , ironically enough  haha = It's not up to either of you, guys , or to anyoneelse for that matter to decide just that .

Or , let's just wait for the next level of evolution of man instead : at the level of consciousness indeed ,no chimp can ever dream of ever reaching , not even remotely close, even though chimps seem to share more than 99 % DNA material with us ...........= We are not just DNA or physical brain body  interacting with the environment+ nurture = we are not just mechanical biological processes = we are much much much more than just that in fact , that's way beyond your mechanical reduced imaginations, you have no idea = our minds are way too primordial and fundamental for that = a fact you , hopefully , might be able to figure out for yourselves , some day , or not , who cares ...= you have a lot of catch up to do, a long way to go , a very long journey to take ...to be able to just grasp that fact , and take it from there again ... = a dynamic endless restless journey ...

Good luck indeed, you're gonna certainly need it, even though i do not believe in the existence of such a thing such as ...luck   .
.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 19:23:21 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #132 on: 12/09/2013 19:18:07 »
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #133 on: 12/09/2013 19:24:58 »
Great minds discuss ideas


A lot of big ideas from great minds were proven wrong by empirical evidence and careful observation of seemingly small and insignificant events.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #134 on: 12/09/2013 19:34:00 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .


« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 19:36:15 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #135 on: 12/09/2013 19:47:33 »
Great minds discuss ideas


A lot of big ideas from great minds were proven wrong by
Quote
e
mpirical evidence and careful observation of seemingly small and insignificant events.[/quote
]



Are all your supposed ideas proven empirical ones ? Come on , just get down from your high horse as a human being always should do .

And i was talking  about events in the ordinary trivial sense.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #136 on: 12/09/2013 19:52:41 »
Mummy :

I have just discovered a brilliant fact = we are just machines: I am a genius ,and the rest are so lower than chimps intellectually  haha

You are machines indeed , how can i disagree with that fact , silly me .

What ,on earth, am i doing here talking to ...machines indeed ? haha

Why not talk to my tv set or to my dog instead = that might turn out to be more fruitfuil  and more intelligent than talking to you as self-declared and actual machines  ,who knows .

Pathetic
Sad
Tragic
I was wondering when you'd start this again...

I might also use other similar or not stuff as well .

Repeating things might make them get through to you .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #137 on: 12/09/2013 20:15:59 »
Your wicked denigrating statement that some chimps are intellectually more superior to some humans ...is worst than racism by the way :

In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .
This is just nonsense - if superior or inferior value judgements have no meaning, how can they be wicked, denigrating, and worse than racism?

Nevertheless, even in healthy individuals at their peak, the average chimp is intellectually superior (i.e. can outperform) the the average human in memory tests. Of course, humans can outperform chimps in many other intellectual tasks - and, of course, plenty of other animals have better memories than we do. Nothing says human intellect is necessarily special. It's no big deal - a slime-mould can navigate a maze more efficiently than most humans; OTOH it can't write a poem.

Only people through mechanical reductionistic world views can say that human intellect is no big deal : come on .

Human intellect makes part of the human mind, the latter as an immaterial process which happens to interact somehow, i dunno how , with the physical brain , the latter as some sort of just a  kindda  receiver .

There are many other animals , insects ...that can hear  what we cannot hear , that can see better than we can ever do  ....Does that mean they are superior to us  ?

We do also surpass them in many other areas they cannot ever approach, not even remotely close .

Birds , for example ,do fly , we do not , not via natural wings at least haha we do not have : does that mean they are syperior to us ?

There was once an experiment conducted with  chimps in France , i guess , who or which or whatever made some paintings that were later on considered by critics as top art , without a-priori knowing of course that they were made by chimps ....Does that mean that  chimps are superior to us  ?

What kindda silly reasoning is this then ?

As some famous scientist i do not recall the name of right now , who happened to write an intrduction to Dawkins ' "Selfish Gene " said i will sum up by this :

All living organisms were / are shaped by the same natural selection of evolution through their genes ...,including man thus = there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

Our unique unparalleled mind is what makes us human and therefore distinguishes us from other living organisms .

The whole is not the sum of its parts , dude .





Quote
It's nothing to do with racism. If you were going to accuse him of anything, it would be specism, but that's something else entirely.

I said that was worst or worse   than racism : i did not say it was racist or racism .

If i would accuse him of anything , i would rather accuse him of being a total jerk or ***** haha , in that regard at least .
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #138 on: 12/09/2013 20:41:41 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .




I would be delighted to learn how to separate science from materialism, just explain how science works with out empirical evidence and reproducible results. Think of the money universities could save without all those fancy laboratories and particle accelerators!

I have heard of the radio/receiver analogy for consciousness, and it is an interesting idea. But it remains just an idea until you can tell me something scientifically verifiable about that mysterious transmitter.

In medicine there is something called a "zebra diagnosis." When you hear the sound of hooves, you expect to see a horse. Occasionally though, it turns out to be a zebra. The same set of observations, even though accurate, can lead you to a false conclusion, because you may be missing (or didn't think to look for) some small piece of critical information that makes a difference. Scientists have wandered down dead end paths for that reason. These kind of errors do not invalidate the entire scientific process and empiricism itself. 
« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 20:43:52 by cheryl j »
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #139 on: 12/09/2013 21:08:45 »
Quote
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

and morons rehash drivel whilst throwing insults at those trying to hold an intelligent discussion.

Though I'm not even sure about the precepts here. Anyone can come up with an idea, but it takes a great mind to suggest a critical experiment (i.e. a series of events) that might support or disprove the idea. And it takes a bold mind to question a popular authority. Which is why I value science way above philosophy, and have no time for the discussion of undefined abstractions. 
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #140 on: 12/09/2013 23:30:31 »
...there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

I thought this was worth re-quoting just for surreality :)
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #141 on: 12/09/2013 23:59:27 »
Some people have a pretty high opinion of homo sapiens. But every other species sees us only as food or the enemy. Now with several million other species out there, the majority opinion among God's creation is clearly against us. And when I encounter a pompous fool, I'm tempted to side with the majority.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #142 on: 13/09/2013 16:37:05 »
Quote
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

and morons rehash drivel whilst throwing insults at those trying to hold an intelligent discussion.

Though I'm not even sure about the precepts here. Anyone can come up with an idea, but it takes a great mind to suggest a critical experiment (i.e. a series of events) that might support or disprove the idea. And it takes a bold mind to question a popular authority. Which is why I value science way above philosophy, and have no time for the discussion of undefined abstractions.


Finished preaching ?

It takes only xerox machines sort of people to repeat or copy  what others might say ,while distorting the actual reality at hand ;but the real xerox machines do make good copies though : see the sifference ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #143 on: 13/09/2013 16:46:08 »
Some people have a pretty high opinion of homo sapiens. But every other species sees us only as food or the enemy. Now with several million other species out there, the majority opinion among God's creation is clearly against us. And when I encounter a pompous fool, I'm tempted to side with the majority.

I think you really should consider a career , as a wanna -be bombastic materialistic preacher : you might attract some followers ...who knows ?

Beware of temptations : they might be  deceptive , elusive , delusive ..:

The truth is not a matter of the opinion of the majority , is not a matter of some sort of democracy: it takes only 1 single mind to turn even science itself upside down , no matter what  the  overwhelming  majority  in science might  say on the matter .




 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #144 on: 13/09/2013 16:48:47 »
...there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

I thought this was worth re-quoting just for surreality:)

What's so surreal about it then ?

Why did you ignore my other quotes ? because you could not answer them maybe ?
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #145 on: 13/09/2013 17:41:41 »
Here's another banana for the troll.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #146 on: 13/09/2013 18:25:36 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .




I would be delighted to learn how to separate science from materialism, just explain how science works with out empirical evidence and reproducible results. Think of the money universities could save without all those fancy laboratories and particle accelerators!


You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?

How can you confuse that with materialism as a world view ? : how can you confuse materialism with science ? - you are confirming my earlier and core point on the subject .Thanks for that .

Quote
I have heard of the radio/receiver analogy for consciousness, and it is an interesting idea. But it remains just an idea until you can tell me something scientifically verifiable about that mysterious transmitter.

Nobody can , for the time being at least , if ever : i am no exception to that rule .

That "transmitter " happens to be immaterial though ,that's why i said that that radio or tv set example was just that : an analogy, no comparison  : a logical analogy  , not a scientific one .

Quote
In medicine there is something called a "zebra diagnosis." When you hear the sound of hooves, you expect to see a horse. Occasionally though, it turns out to be a zebra. The same set of observations, even though accurate, can lead you to a false conclusion, because you may be missing (or didn't think to look for) some small piece of critical information that makes a difference. Scientists have wandered down dead end paths for that reason. These kind of errors do not invalidate the entire scientific process and empiricism itself.

Ok, there  is also what we can call learned cultural or other habits of thought and behaviour out there as well that are shaped by their corresponding cultural and other world views via nurture environment , as the case here is in this thread .

(There are also biological social cultural psychological and other factors that do shape our thought and thus our behaviour )
............
Organic chemist Linda Jean Shepherd in her unique book : " Lifting the veil : the feminine face of science " : neo-feminist philosophy of science , ethics ....combined  with the so-called depth Jung's psychology she said she studied for more than 15 years , combined with  the theory of chaos , with physics of chemistry ....

She told the tales of many brilliant mathematicians and scientists who dared to say that intuition, feeling and even love made them discover some breakthroughs in their respective fields .

A great mathematician , for example , even said to her : many great ideas of mine were the products of intuition, feeling ...and that he developed the habit to tell his students : what do you feel   about this ? when he displays certain mathematical equations on the board for them .

Linda Jean left science as a result of what she described in that interesting book of hers concerning her own experiences with science and scientists , what she went through ... ,because of that exclusive rational empirical reductionist approach in science she tried to improve by a more  holistic approach  , because of that ossified dogmatic exclusive bureaucratic hieriarchial , insensitive blind reductionist specialised materialism in science : she said , or in words to that same effect at least,for example  :

We were all raised a certain way , in order to think and behave a certain way , in order to approach a certain level of reality , missing the whole spectrum of other potential levels of reality in the process .

One example among many to illustrate the above she described as follows :

The Indians , from India , to be more precize , used to tame their elephants this way :

They used to tie their new born elephants babies to a soft leaf via a soft rope .

When they grown up to become adult elephants , they would destroy their metal chains tying them to solid big trees , together with the latter sometimes, but , and here where or when the amazing thing happened :

When those same grown -up adult elephants  would be tied to a soft leaf via a soft rope , they do not even try to make the slightest effort to break free from those soft "chains " they could do so easily .

Learned helplessness is also another example of the conditioned behaviour and thought at the level of  humans , and other species ...

Theer are many examples and scientific facts like that ,so  i will leave it at this then .


She said also, for example , that she tried to observe , look at , experience , grasp ..what she sees, experiences ... differently ...


...........

Say,  you decide to travel to a foreign country , you buy a travel guide that tells you where to go in the country of your choice , what to look for , what  to expect to find , to see , what food to eat , what clothes to wear depending on the weather there , what kindda culture and people you would meet and encounter ....

But , say , you decide to overlook some aspects of those info contained in that travel guide , by unlearning some of them , you might stumble across new experiences ,facts , events ...that might startle you , and that travel guide might not turn out to be really accurate .

You would experience things yourself , not what that guide tells you what to experience or find , expect ...

.........

There was an ancient tale of a famous Arab fool that goes a bit as follows :
He was so drunk once that he lost his  home  keys in the street while trying to go back home in that drunk state of his :
A friend of his happened to see him on his knees on the ground searching for something : that friend said : what 's going on ? What are you looking for ? Can i help ? Yes , i lost my keys , the fool responded :
After hours of exhausting search on their knees covering many blocks in the process , that exhausted friend said to the fool : Are you sure  you lost your keys here ,in this area ?

The fool answered : no ,i am not .

"Why didn't you say that ,in the first place to begin with ? , Why did you  let me search all this time on my knees  for nothing ? " said the angry friend .

 "Well i thought i should  better search for them here , because there is street light  only in this area:, responded the fool  .


We might be all behaving like that Arab fool indeed ...who knows .


...

A chinese old tale goes a bit as follows i did extract from "Geography of Thought : or how westerners and Asians think and why ?" by Richard E.Nisbett  , unique book by the way , even though i do not agree much with its core secular liberal so-called evolutionary "geographic " approach :

An old poor chinese farmer lost his only horse once that he used to rely on for farming his poor tiny piece of land .
His tiny village neighbours visited him to express their empathy for his loss .
He said : we do not know whether the loss of my only horse is a good or bad thing .

A week later , the old man's lost horse came back accompanied by another horse as well : a female horse then .

The neighbours were overjoyed : the old farmer said ,once again the same thing .

After a while , the young son of the old farmer injured his knees after falling from the back of his father's returning horse .
The neighbours visited the old man again to express their sorrow for his son's injury  .

The old farmer said the same thing again .

A month or so later , the emperor's army came to towm or to that village , in order to recruit all healthy men and boys by force , by direct order of the emperor himself .

Only the old farmer's son , old men  ,and little kids , together with women girls of course ...were allowed to stay in the village .

The old farmer said the same thing again to the villagers  who rushed to him to express their joy for the fact that his injured son  was not taken by the army ...

This story goes on and on indefinitely ...like that ...

..........

Here is an analogy regarding what you said also :

Logic or reason are also as less infaillible as common sense is by the way , as David Hume used to say .

.......

Take also , for example , this analogy :

As a western lady , i assume , say , you go to the US  where many foreigners taxi-drivers are out there , or  to any foreign country for that matter :

You talk to the first taxi-driver in English after landing in the airport , he/she turns out to be no English speaker , you go to the next one , the same happens, to the third one and so on , the same happens , there is no reason to assume that the next one after all that would also turn out to be no English speaker .

Take care




 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #147 on: 13/09/2013 18:27:29 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #148 on: 13/09/2013 18:38:23 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?


Because experiments, observations, measurements, and empirical evidence are all material processes involving material things!
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #149 on: 13/09/2013 18:39:59 »
Here's another banana for the troll.

Welcome back , Mr . machine jesuit : I am delighted to have you back  .

I thought you said you were gone haha

What happened ? Was i able to trigger some mechanical mechanism in you , somehow ?

I know what particular "buttons " to push in you, don't worry .

If you happen to be looking for just that , all you have to do is just : shoot indeed.

You are welcome .

I would love to conduct some harmless innocent ethical experiments here , to be honest , i must admit .

I love bananas , i have enough of them by the way , thanks .

Can you sink even lower ?I wonder ,  I think you have already reached the bottom : you do not need any further push from anyone for that matter ,  i was not even responsible for , i was not even causing ...

Congratulations .

You are really turning into a real troll now , i see : do not preach what you do not do , Mr.mechanical hypocrit preacher .

Interesting sudden development worth studying carefully indeed .

I feel i am gonna have some real fun here : awesome .


« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 18:42:31 by DonQuichotte »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #149 on: 13/09/2013 18:39:59 »

 

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