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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 308134 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1250 on: 11/12/2013 17:00:06 »
... We should thus be looking for non-materialist falsifiable theories of consciousness ,basta .
How?   :)

Silly question :


It's a bit like saying : if one detects flaws in or unexplained anomalies or unexplained phenomena ...by classical physics , before the time of Einstein, then, there is no way to disocover the still unknown  at that time  future relativity theory discovery , or quantum mechanics .
New scientific discoveries through the evolutionary nature of science might deliver the answer to your silly question thus : only time will tell then .
Are you insinuating that dlorde is incompetent by calling him silly??

I think you should apologize......................

Don't be silly : just be brave and honest enough as to address that paradoxical thinking of yours ,instead of this non-sense of yours .
I was just teasing dlorde by calling him silly, since he implies that since there are still no falsifiable non-materialist theories of consciousness out there yet ,there will be none tomorrow, and hence   materialism must be not false .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1251 on: 11/12/2013 17:04:19 »
Guys :

Try to be brave ,mature ,objective and honest enough as to face the music , concerning the fact that materialism is false , thanks to consciousness mainly , and hence the mind is not in the brain, the mind is not brain activity ,instead of resorting to and raising irrelevant side issues .

Best of luck to you then .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1252 on: 11/12/2013 17:10:29 »
Back on topic, I just noticed that QualiaSoup have two 10 minute videos on substance dualism (the idea that there is a physical body & brain, and a non-physical mind & consciousness). The second video covers much of what we've discussed here (with a mention of split-brain consciousness that's problematic for dualists), but it's worth viewing both:

Substance Dualism (1)
Substance Dualism (2)

I will take a look at those videos i am downloading as we speak , so to speak .
But ,the main issue here is that materialism is false , so, we should be looking for non-materialist falsifiable theories of consciousness .
To continue trying to defend the indefensible materialism, by trying to refute dualism or other non-materialist theories of nature , can't make the fact go away that materialism is false , and hence materialism must be rejected by all sciences .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1253 on: 11/12/2013 17:20:08 »
thanks to consciousness mainly

Please define this remarkable stuff you keep talking about. What does it do?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1254 on: 11/12/2013 17:27:44 »
thanks to consciousness mainly

Please define this remarkable stuff you keep talking about. What does it do?

Please , do some introspection : look within yourself : get in touch with your self ,or with your own subjective inner life .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1255 on: 11/12/2013 17:39:44 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg426266#msg426266
[/quote


The very existence of confirmation bias,for example,  is evidence enough for the fact that the mind of the observer does change the observed ,via the observer's a-priori held belief assumptions ,is evidence enough for the fact that the mind does have causal effect on matter , brain or body .[/i]



Seriously? That's the exactly wrong definition of bias. Look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me - it means the mind is wrong about its interpretation of reality, not that it changes it.

Wrong :

You did miss my relatively long excerpt on the subject , some pages earlier .
Read it carefully ,and you might see both yourself and your outdated superseded false 19th century old materialism reflected in it , cristal clearly .
None can be more guilty of confirmation bias than materialists , since the materialist mainstream false "scientific world view " has been assuming that "all is matter , including the mind " , and hence " the mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity " = the latter are "empirical scientific facts ", so , why would most scientists try to challenge those "scientific facts " ?: they would only try to confirm them , in some way or another .

Note that i cannot really explain those experiments mentioned by dlorde , those experiments the existence of which i did already encounter earlier .

Since materialism is false , there must be some non-materialist explanation of those experiments ,if they happened / happen to be flawless .
But , fact is : there are in fact no non-materialist falsifiable=scientific  theories of consciousness out there yet , but that does not mean there will none ...tomorrow .

Since materialism is false thus , any materialist attempt to try to explain or interpret those or other experiments , scientific results ....would be a paradoxical thing to do that's doomed to fail .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1256 on: 11/12/2013 17:46:51 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg426261#msg426261


Since the mainstream 'scientific world view " assumes
a-priori that "the mind is in then brain, or that the mind is just brain's activity ". then, scientists all around the world would just have to try to confirm that a priori held "scientific ' assumption empirically .
In the particular case of those experiments you mentioned , i think, personally, that they were designed as to confirm the mainstream 'scientific world view " on the subject of brain and mind ,to the point where those experiments were suggestive and confirmatory , in the sense that the subjects under "investigation " were told to perform particular decisions-making via specific instructions on how to perform them .
Those specific instructions went through the subjects' in question sensory -"inputs " to their brains first , that's why those scientists who were conducting those suggestive experiments through their suggestive confirmation bias ,in the above mentioned sense ,that's why they detected neurons' firings before those subjects were aware or conscious of their decisions.
So, you are saying the experiments were fraudulent? Were the subjects told "Please wait exactly six seconds before responding" in order to maintain the materialist conspiracy?

See my reply to you here above on the same subject .
Who said there was / is a materialist conspiracy then ? Don't be too simplistic as to use this kind of terminology, please .

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1257 on: 11/12/2013 18:19:57 »
Are you insinuating that dlorde is incompetent by calling him silly??

I think you should apologize......................
He's called me a lot worse than that.

When his repeated unsupported assertions and declarations of incredulity fail to convince, he will post whole chapters of other people's work; when that fails, he resorts to ad-hominems and insults. What he is unable to do is provide any coherent argument or explanation for his constant straw-man assertions. This behaviour is so consistently misdirected, repetitive and apparently obsessive, I suspect OCD.

These days, I post my responses for the exercise and the lurkers ;)
I think it's time for a moderator to get envolved.......................HELP

I don't agree. Crushing the discussion would only confirm Don's conspiracy theory regarding anti-materialism.
This has been in many ways a pointless, circular, and silly discussion, but in other ways quite fruitful for me - an aspect of biology I had never really thought about much in the past. My knowledge of the brain was pretty much anatomical. Until David Cooper mentioned it, I had never heard the word qualia before. 
Since this conversation started, I've read at least least 3 books that I might not have read other wise, and articles by Nagler, Chandler, Sheldrake, Ramachandron, Dennett, Searle, Chirchland, Damasio , Raymore, Carter and others. I've read interesting things from dlorde, alancalverd, RD, Ethos (and, yes, Don, although I think he has an agenda.) At anyrate,  it's given me something to think about while driving to work, or folding laundry. The occasional ad hominem doesn't bother me; I stick around until I get bored.

(These discussions have  been opening up a whole unexpected universe to me, you have no idea, thanks to you all in fact,especially thanks to you, Cheryl , in the first place , no kidding or hypocrisy , and thanks to dlorde in the second place ... .)

Anyone trying to debunk the mainstream materialist false 'scientific world view " must have a hidden  agenda  of his / her own  indeed ,come on : what kind of agenda then had atheist Nagel ,Chalmers , and many other atheists as well, and others then ? by refuting materialism : you tell me : makes no sense whatsoever .

Should we brand any scientists , thinkers ...automatically as heretics , charlatans, pseudo-scientists , pseudo-thinkers or worse , with hidden agendas of their own , while having lunatic conspiracy theories of their own ,  delusions ,simply because they would happen to be challenging the "scientific world view " ? , Come on ,

How is science supposed to progress then otherwise ? Science that's not about dogmas or about definite knowledge or the truth,if science or any of its meta or sub-paradigms should not be challenged  .

Ironically and paradoxically enough , materialism has been the one that's been turning science into a dogma , into an orthodox dogmatic secular religion , by imposing its false materialist conception of nature as "the scientific world view " for so long now :

Just tell me , please , what extraordinary evidence has been delivered by materialism for its extraordinary claims regarding its "all is matter , including the mind " false conception of nature "scientific world view " then ?


Needless to say , and that goes without saying ,once again, that i do love science so much that i would love to see it get rid of its dogmatic and false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " : these are my real motives you can call agenda ,if you want to .

Please , try not to be too simplistic as to use that kind of self-refuting and self-defeating terminology , such as agenda , conspiracy ....


I do have no agenda , dear , as Sheldrake , as atheist Nagel and many others ,religious and non-religious people do have none : they just want to liberate science from the dogmatic outdated false superseded 19th century old materialism tha;s been holding science back ,for so long now , by imprisonning it within its materialist false walls .

Science must be liberated from materialism, if science wanna be less dogmatic and more scientific, if science wanna progress and continue evolving as it should be doing : science whose nature is evolutionary as to dispell dogmas , lies , half truths , falsehood ...

Ironically enough , it was thanks to you ,Cheryl, that i did learn to know the thought of atheist Nagel, it was thanks to you that i paid closer attention to Sheldrake's work ...that all brought me on the path of Chalmers , John Searle , Chris Carter and many others , i might not have been walking on , if it wasn't for you :

And i have been learning many things here as well, in the process , in ways i have never expected ,to be honest .

"The gain is worth the loss " as the writer of "I am  strange loop " said i did read some parts of , thanks to the fact that dlorde did mention that book , and many other ones and links ..............

I am too outraged,angry  and appaled by your unscientific denials and attitudes right now to be able to continue this discussion .

So, i am leaving this forum ,right now , in order to cool down , and i will return to this forum only when i would see you all abandoning your unscientific and irrational accusations and materialist inquisitions.

Best wishes .

Ciao .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1258 on: 11/12/2013 18:39:14 »
thanks to consciousness mainly

Please define this remarkable stuff you keep talking about. What does it do?

Please , do some introspection : look within yourself : get in touch with your self ,or with your own subjective inner life .

From which I can only deduce that you have no idea what you are talking about, and your arguments and assertions are therefore worthless at best or invalid at worst. How sad to waste your considerable intellect on such a pointless exercise.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1259 on: 11/12/2013 18:39:25 »


Ironically and paradoxically enough , materialism has been the one that's been turning science into a dogma , into an orthodox dogmatic secular religion , by imposing its false materialist conception of nature as "the scientific world view " for so long now :


And here your secret agenda is revealed; "into an orthodox dogmatic SECULAR RELIGION". It's becoming very clear that you want to bring FAITH into the scientific argument. Would I be mistaken if I were to assume that the FAITH of Islam had something to do with your dislike for what you refer to as the secular religion?

You did make reference once to great Muslim contributions.

Just asking..........
« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 18:42:10 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1260 on: 11/12/2013 19:09:50 »

Only religious idealism is true = reality is both matter and mind , the latter that's irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again = that's the only conception of nature out there that does make sense in fact .
"Only religious idealism is true"..........Another example of your fight against the secular.

One does not need to abandon rational science to have faith. And, to attack one or the other is an attempt to defeat any chance for their co-existence. I value good science and my faith. I personally choose to preserve them both.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 21:56:57 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1261 on: 11/12/2013 21:54:29 »
thanks to consciousness mainly

Please define this remarkable stuff you keep talking about. What does it do?

Please , do some introspection : look within yourself : get in touch with your self ,or with your own subjective inner life .

From which I can only deduce that you have no idea what you are talking about, and your arguments and assertions are therefore worthless at best or invalid at worst. How sad to waste your considerable intellect on such a pointless exercise.

Are you saying just that , simply because you cannot deal with THE biggest and THE most important mystery of them all : consciousness ? Yours or otherwise .
What are you afraid of then ? Are you afraid of the implications of "taking the most serious and most important mystery of them all seriously ' ?
Is it a rational or a scientific thing to do to dismiss or ignore the huge importance of the biggest mystery of them all ,just because it is ?
Well, science is all about ,or  rather  should be all about , facing almost all mysteries of the universe ,by taking on those challenges ,  including and especially that of consciousness without which there can be no science ,in the first place to begin with , consciousness through which science is practiced by humans conscious scientists .
Just imagine with me what science would be like ,if science would deliberately choose to ignore some mysteries of this universe ,through scientists of course ,  simply because those mysteries  do happen to be  extremely hard ,if not impossible, to deal with empirically,or simply because the very nature of those mysteries cannot be accounted for by the a-priori held belief assumptions of those scientists  .

Science would become just a kind of dogmatic irrational orthodox ossified secular religion , as it almost has been the case , thanks to the mainstream materialist dogmatic false orthodox 'scientific world view ",despite all scientific huge achievements and despite the fact that science has been extremely successful , the latter facts that could be /can be, and will be accomplished only thanks to the effective and unparalleled scientific method that's like no other indeed = materialism has been having absolutely nothing to do with the latter facts ..

Hard -core or die- hard materialists lunatics such as Dennett , for example ,do even deny the very existence of consciousness as such ,ironically paradoxically enough , while they do experience consciousness every single day of their own lives,consciousness without which they cannot be functioning , thinking ,living, and behaving as they have been doing  .
Not to mention the fact that mainstream materialists do equate consciousness with brain activity , consciousness as an epiphenomena ,an almost  useless by-product of evolution they say,without any causal effect on matter ,while those same materialists do experience their own subjective and rational decision -making processes every single day of their lunatic lives  : how can consciousness, subjective and other conscious experiences rise from just neurochemsitry or from physics and chemistry then ?
Oh, yeah, right , we are just hardware programmed by consciousness as a software : how convenient= false machine analogy regarding life  .
And how can the most important process of them all be an epiphenomena or a by-product of biological evolution, the latter or just the materialist version of which that cannot account , per definition, for consciousness, and hence evolution cannot be just biological , but also mental non-physical .
Materialists just choose deliberatly to "see " consciousness within the context of that a-priori held materialist belief assumption of theirs ,that's just an extension of the materialist false "all is matter ,including the mind " conception of nature , otherwise they would be refuting their own materialism in the process .
Materialists are in fact just afraid of the implications "of taking consciousness seriously ",otherwise they would be knocking the last nail on the coffin of their own materialism ,or they would be just pulling the trigger of their own self-torturing conscience -gun  by triggering  the last bullet of mercy toward  the very soulless ,and already dead and false corpse of materialism  : they do  not even have  to do just that : their materialism corpse is already dead : was born dead in fact : a freak of nature : there is nothingelse in fact more serious and more important and vital than ...consciousness ,the nature of which has been reduced to just matter by materialists , just for materialist convenient ideological purposes  .
.....................
Come on , i know you're better than that you were saying here above .
Do i have to repeat the same answer to your same question , over and over again ? Come on, be serious , please .
There is nothing more important out there than our human consciousness through which we do practice science and most of the rest,science that's just a human conscious activity  : human consciousness as both THE obstacle today and THE key to understanding ourselves and the universe .
Do i have to define your own consciousness to you ? Get in touch with your own self ,or with your own subjective conscious inner life then .
Try to do some introspection : there is a whole universe out there within yourself waiting for you to dust it off , waiting for you to discover and explore,Mr.scientist  .
There is nothing out there better than trying to explore and discover our own subjective  conscious  inner lives .
Consciousness is the self , or self-identity , the soul or whatever .
That there still can be no clear definition out there of consciousness did not / does not and will not prevent scientists , thinkers or philosophers  , artists ....from trying to approach or relatively understand the mystery of consciousness : consciousness as THE mystery of them all ,science cannot afford to ignore as such any longer ....
Science must first try to reject its own materialist mainstream false "scientific world view " ,if science wanna be able to deal seriously and somehow empirically with consciousness .....the latter that's no useless epiphenomena or a minor by-product of evolution, as materialism wanna make you believe it is , consciousness that's not confined to the brain, that's not brain activity , consciousness that's nowhere and everywhere = non-local = within you and without ..........
There is nothing more fascinating or more important than ...consciousness .
Let's hope evolutionary science will be able in the future to shed some light at least on the most important ,vital , and extremely puzzling mysteries of them all : consciousness the amazing and fundamental power of which is almost unlimited ...
Science would benefit a lot form that , you have no idea ....
« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 22:31:18 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1262 on: 11/12/2013 22:01:42 »


I am too outraged,angry  and appaled by your unscientific denials and attitudes right now to be able to continue this discussion .

So, i am leaving this forum ,right now , in order to cool down , and i will return to this forum only when i would see you all abandoning your unscientific and irrational accusations and materialist inquisitions.

Best wishes .

Ciao .
That was remarkably fast, so have you calmed down yet?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1263 on: 11/12/2013 22:11:42 »

Only religious idealism is true = reality is both matter and mind , the latter that's irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again = that's the only conception of nature out there that does make sense in fact .
"Only religious idealism is true"..........Another example of your fight against the secular.

One does not need to abandon rational science to have faith. And, to attack one or the other is an attempt to defeat any chance for their co-existence. I value good science and my faith. I personally choose to preserve them both.

Who would reject science proper ? only idiots fools or ignorant folks would maybe .

You do neither know what you're talking about , nor are you aware or conscious of your own intrinsic paradox ,by both believing in the immaterial realm ,and in the materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view " ,the latter that has absolutely nothing to do with science whatsoever , even though science has been assuming that 'all is matter ,including the mind ", thanks to materialism .
The current "scientific world view " has been just the false materialist conception of nature .
How can't you understand these simple facts , i have been repeating to you and to the rest for so long now , over and over again : the more reason i should be repeating them thus .
.......................
Besides :
I meant religious dualism in fact : i am entiteld to hold that opinion or belief of mine , but i do not impose it as the 'scientific world view " ,as false materialism has been doing to all sciences for that matter , for so long now,by imposing its own false materialist conception of nature , world view ,philosophy or ideology as "the scientific world view " , for so long now , since the 19th century at least  .
Dualism period is the only plausible conception of nature that makes sense in fact,dualism that's been already present at the level of quantum mechanics  .
Dualism that's almost unfalsifiable =unscientific , as materialism is by the way , but dualism is not necessarily false ,as materialism is :see the difference ?
Materialism makes no sense whatsoever : matter cannot be the only reality thus : consciousness has been sending that myth to Alice's wonderland ,all along,and materialists do know that fact , deep down : they cannot  do acknowledge that simple fact  , otherwise they would be refuting their own materialism in the process  .
Materialists are thus just afraid of the implications of consciousness regarding materialism : that's why they either deny the existence of consciousness as such , or just reduce it to just brain activity ...for obvious materialist ideological purposes .

What has science to do with all that ?

Science has been materialist : that's the problem with science : the latter must reject materialism thus , in order to be less dogmatic , and more scientific , in order to be able to progress and regain its lost evolutionary nature and power .

« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 22:17:25 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1264 on: 11/12/2013 22:33:51 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg426381#msg426381
But ,the main issue here is that materialism is false , so, we should be looking for non-materialist falsifiable theories of consciousness .
To continue trying to defend the indefensible materialism, by trying to refute dualism or other non-materialist theories of nature , can't make the fact go away that materialism is false , and hence materialism must be rejected by all sciences .

That might seem like the "main issue" to you, but that is your take on it. Other people might be interested in consciousness for other reasons, just interested in the topic itself, and their comments are not necessarily a "distraction" or irrelevant - consciousness was, after all, the original title of the thread, not "materialism is false."

 What's more, asking you to support your claims or ideas with evidence is not equivalent to defending materialism.  You would be expected to provide evidence, even if you were on a forum with just other dualists or believers in the immaterial,  in order to  support your particular version of it.

(One can only imagine what that debate would be like)
« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 22:38:52 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1265 on: 11/12/2013 22:37:31 »


I am too outraged,angry  and appaled by your unscientific denials and attitudes right now to be able to continue this discussion .

So, i am leaving this forum ,right now , in order to cool down , and i will return to this forum only when i would see you all abandoning your unscientific and irrational accusations and materialist inquisitions.

Best wishes .

Ciao .
That was remarkably fast, so have you calmed down yet?

Don't worry about just that : i do know that all of you are relatively rational intelligent people , that's why i feel i do have to pursue this discussion ,regarding THE biggest mystery of them all (consciousness ) through which science is practiced ,  until the ..."end ", hoping that you would come back to your senses , unless confirmation bias , unless your a-priori held dogmatic beliefs , and other bias + other factors : cultural psychological ideological social economic political ...would prevent you from 'seeing the light " ....Don't misinterpret the last sentence "religiously " then. .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1266 on: 11/12/2013 22:44:12 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg426381#msg426381
But ,the main issue here is that materialism is false , so, we should be looking for non-materialist falsifiable theories of consciousness .
To continue trying to defend the indefensible materialism, by trying to refute dualism or other non-materialist theories of nature , can't make the fact go away that materialism is false , and hence materialism must be rejected by all sciences .

That might seem like the "main issue" to you, but that is your take on it. Other people might be interested in consciousness for other reasons, just interested in the topic itself, and their comments are not necessarily a "distraction" or irrelevant - consciousness was, after all, the original title of the thread, not "materialism is false."

Well, that's the point :
Well, for your info, lady : materialism is false , mainly thanks to consciousness .
It is materialism in science , or the mainstream materialist false 'scientific world view " that has been preventing science from shedding light somehow on ...consciousness : "materialism is false " and this consciousness thread are intimately linked, in the above mentioned sense thus , more than you could ever know .

Quote
What's more, asking you to support your claims or ideas with evidence is not equivalent to defending materialism.  You would be expected to provide evidence, even if you were on a forum with just other dualists or believers in the immaterial,  in order to  support your particular version of it.

What do you think i have been doing all along , also via my relevant tons of posted  material on the subject here , that have been supporting my claims ?

I have been doing all that , by violating copyright and other issues , so ....= that's like stealing food for starving  people such as yourselves , guys: not much wrong about just that thus  .

Gotta go, ciao, take care .
« Last Edit: 11/12/2013 22:47:12 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1267 on: 11/12/2013 22:55:28 »


Besides :
I meant religious dualism in fact : i am entiteld to hold that opinion or belief of mine , but i do not impose it as the 'scientific world view "

Listen just once Don....., you like myself have every right to our personal beliefs. I'm not here to change your mind my friend. I only stand to support science where it has given man the ability to improve his life.

If I want to boil an egg, I must reach a certain temperature relative to atmospheric pressure for a prescribed period of time. This knowledge is necessary to accomplish a physical act. That is Physics in it's purest form.

Now let's talk about the non-materialist.

You contend that consciousness is non-materialistic, and to some limited extent, I might agree. But let's get real here. Unless we are born into this material world and develop physically as a new born, our consciousness would never appear. So we should all realize that the origin of consciousness has to start in the brain.

Wherever consciousness takes us after that, it must still start in the physical brain. Nevertheless, I might be willing to agree with you that ultimately, consciousness may evolve beyond the physical, we really can't know for sure. But that is really beside the point. That state beyond the physical is where faith and religion are invariably drawn into the argument. And the problem we're having here Don.... is; You can't mix science with faith and expect to prove anything.








« Last Edit: 12/12/2013 01:26:05 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1268 on: 12/12/2013 00:04:10 »
Quote
Consciousness is the self , or self-identity , the soul or whatever .
That there still can be no clear definition out there of consciousness

And therein lies the pointlessness of any discussion. Whatever facet of existence, behaviour or perception I explain, you will say "ah, but that isn't what I mean by consciousness".

My business as a scientist is to answer questions, not to guess what the questioner might be thinking about. And if you start the conversation by saying "you cannot possibly answer this question, or if you do, I won't believe you" then I dismiss you as a timewaster. Ars longa, vita brevis, my friend. Don't spend your vita being an ars.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1269 on: 12/12/2013 00:33:28 »
I was just teasing dlorde by calling him silly, since he implies that since there are still no falsifiable non-materialist theories of consciousness out there yet ,there will be none tomorrow, and hence   materialism must be not false .
I neither implied that nor meant it. You're reading your own prejudices into my posts.

Having said that, I know of no falsifiable non-materialist theories, I don't see how a non-materialist theory could be falsifiable, and I don't see a useful alternative to materialism at present.

The two Qualia Soup links express my current views on this quite well.

If you have anything beyond the plain assertion, incredulity, and hand-waving you've presented so far, such as evidence or plausible argument of any kind, to support a non-materialist theory, I'll consider it. However, I've already asked you this many times before without any useful result, so I won't hold my breath.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1270 on: 12/12/2013 01:03:58 »
My business as a scientist is to answer questions, not to guess what the questioner might be thinking about. And if you start the conversation by saying "you cannot possibly answer this question, or if you do, I won't believe you" then I dismiss you as a timewaster.
This is exactly what he has done - he admits he can't explain the consciousness experiments discussed earlier, so he dismisses them as flawed because they contradict his assumptions about materialism which are, in turn, based on his assumptions about consciousness itself, ("materialism is false , mainly thanks to consciousness"). He rejects empirical evidence about consciousness because it contradicts his a-priori assumptions about consciousness...

I'm sure he's aware that the gaping hole in that ridiculous circular 'logic' is the unsupported assumption that consciousness cannot be of material origin, but he seems quite unable even to consider the alternative. The truth is, we don't yet know, but Don insists that he does with a vehemence that suggests it's a threat to his entire belief system.







 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1271 on: 12/12/2013 04:03:51 »

Besides :
I meant religious dualism in fact : i am entiteld to hold that opinion or belief of mine , but i do not impose it as the 'scientific world view " ,

That's exactly what you've been advocating for the last 51 pages, scientific acceptance of your dualistic view.


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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1272 on: 12/12/2013 14:29:27 »

None can be more guilty of confirmation bias than materialists

Don, only you would claim that anyone who disagrees with you is biased. Do not you not see anything amusing about that?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1273 on: 14/12/2013 19:30:09 »

None can be more guilty of confirmation bias than materialists

Don, only you would claim that anyone who disagrees with you is biased. Do not you not see anything amusing about that?

Try to read me well, sis :

Most scientists ,including  all materialists can only try to confirm the current materialist mainstream 'scientific world view ", so , none can be more guilty of confirmation bias than ...materialists in fact  ,  in the above mentioned sense thus .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1274 on: 14/12/2013 19:34:00 »

Besides :
I meant religious dualism in fact : i am entiteld to hold that opinion or belief of mine , but i do not impose it as the 'scientific world view " ,

That's exactly what you've been advocating for the last 51 pages, scientific acceptance of your dualistic view.

I am entiteld to hold that opinion or belief of mine : i just do not impose it as "the scientific world view ", as materialism has been doing to all sciences for that matter , by imposing its materialist false conception of nature , as the 'scientific world view ".
Non-materialists views of the world are unfalsifiable = unscientific , as materialism is by the way , but that does not mean they are all necessarily false , as materialism is .
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1274 on: 14/12/2013 19:34:00 »

 

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