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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 307570 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1425 on: 27/12/2013 18:57:03 »


I can't rather resist the temptation,desire  and urge to make you realise
Welcome back Don.............., The only way to make us realize anything is for you to present evidence, which to date, you have not!

You are the author of this thread and it is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence in support of your views, not for us to prove you wrong! If you ever expect any of us to agree with you, you'll need to provide some tangible evidence. And not just copied and pasted excerpts from spurious sources.

The reason material evidence is necessary is; None of us is able to read your, or for that matter, any one else's mind. You can't just declare that your evidence exists in your own mind, you must be able to share it with others and that takes tangible material evidence.

Can you at least understand that simple reasoning?

(There is , once again, plenty of evidence and arguments contained in my posted excerpts ,for everybody to see,not just speculations or opinions views,regarding the undeniable falsehood  and absurdity  of the materialist mainstream "scientific world view "  .)

Well,thanks, appreciate indeed :  just try to answer the simple question i did ask dlorde to address then :

The materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been assuming , for so long now , that reality is just material or physical, including the mind: the 'scientific world view " has been taking that false assumption, or rather false materialist conception of nature for granted as an 'empirical fact " so far :
The burden of proof is yours to address then.............

In other words :

Has science ever proved the materialist "fact ", or rather the materialist core belief assumption to be "true ", regarding the nature of reality ?

Is the materialist "all is matter ,including the mind " mainstream 'scientific world view " 's version of reality an empirical fact then ? Is reality just material or physical as all sciences have been assuming it to be , since the 19th century at least ?


Can you   try to answer  just that ?

Best wishes : my sincere and genuine apologies to you ,and to the others here , i have been rude to .

Nice weekend to you all indeed , by the way ..........
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1426 on: 27/12/2013 19:04:01 »
Your wrong Don, you started the thread, its your theory
its down to you to prove it.

The burden of proof is all yours to address , since the materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been assuming that "all is matter ,including the mind ", thanks to materialism, and hence the mind is in the brain , or the mind is just the product of brain activity .

My take on that is : materialism ,and hence its "scientific world view " are false , mainly because physics and chemistry alone or neurochemistry ...cannot account for consciousness as such .
So:
What extraordinary evidence the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " has been delivering so far , for its extraordinary claims regarding the nature of reality then ? and hence for the "scientific fact " that the mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity .

Try to answer just that , instead of sending the ball back to me .

Thanks, appreciate indeed .

All the best .
« Last Edit: 27/12/2013 19:05:37 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1427 on: 27/12/2013 19:10:38 »
Quote
the materialist false mainstream 'scientific world view "

Sorry, Don, repeating this mantra doesn't give it meaning. It may make you happy to do so, but it's a waste of your talent. There is no "scientific world view". Science is a process, not a philosophy.

Well, ironically and paradoxically enough , the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " has been just the materialist false conception of nature , has been thus just the materialist world view , philosophy , ideology ..........through the materialist meta-paradigm in science .
So, it is an undeniable fact that all sciences for that matter have been assuming that reality is just material or physical = all is matter , including the mind, thanks to materialism ...

It's absurd to try to deny that fact .

Nice weekend .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1428 on: 27/12/2013 19:14:48 »


Well,thanks, appreciate indeed :  just try to answer the simple question i did ask dlorde to address then :



As the author of this thread, it is incumbent upon you to offer any evidence, not for us to do so. All the evidence we understand suggests that you are wrong. And here is why:

To prove your position you must prove the existence of consciousness without a brain. If you can do that, you may be on to something. Can you do that Don....?

Here's your chance to deliver evidence, all you need to do is provide good evidence that consciousness can exist without the instrument of the brain. Go for it Don........ We're all waiting..................................
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1429 on: 27/12/2013 19:19:37 »
Will somebody here,please,  try to prove  the following "empirical fact " to be "true " ?:
I am not gonna be tired of repeating this same simple question over and over again, untill  i get an answer to that , hopefully :
According to the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " : "all is matter , including the mind" , and hence the mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity = that's a "scientific fact " : try to prove the latter to be "true " as such then, since all sciences have been taking this 'scientific fact ",or rather this core materialist belief assumption ,regarding the nature of reality ,  for granted as an "empirical fact "  , for so long now, thanks to materialism thus ...

Thanks , appreciate indeed .

Nice weekend .
« Last Edit: 27/12/2013 19:21:37 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1430 on: 27/12/2013 19:26:24 »
Will somebody here,please,  try to prove  the following "empirical fact " to be "true " ?:
I am not gonna be tired of repeating this same simple question over and over again, untill  i get an answer to that , hopefully :
According to the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " : "all is matter , including the mind" , and hence the mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity = that's a "scientific fact " : try to prove the latter to be "true " as such then, since all sciences have been taking this 'scientific fact ",or rather this core materialist belief assumption ,regarding the nature of reality ,  for granted as an "empirical fact "  , for so long now, thanks to materialism thus ...

Thanks , appreciate indeed .

Nice weekend .
Evidently you're not as smart as I thought you were.

Who's thread is this anyway?

It's your thread Don....................You provide your evidence!

Can consciousness exist without the brain?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1431 on: 27/12/2013 19:26:57 »


Well,thanks, appreciate indeed :  just try to answer the simple question i did ask dlorde to address then :



As the author of this thread, it is incumbent upon you to offer any evidence, not for us to do so. All the evidence we understand suggests that you are wrong. And here is why:

To prove your position you must prove the existence of consciousness without a brain. If you can do that, you may be on to something. Can you do that Don....?

Here's your chance to deliver evidence, all you need to do is provide good evidence that consciousness can exist without the instrument of the brain. Go for it Don........ We're all waiting..................................

Just try to answer the above mentioned and repeated simple question : is "all is matter ,including the mind " ? , the latter is  an  "empirical fact " : try to prove it to be as such then .

And of course consciousness and brain or body are inseparable ,in this life at least , and do have some sort of mutual correlations , interactions or whatever with each other .....What has that to do with anything ?...............
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1432 on: 27/12/2013 19:31:12 »


And of course consciousness and brain or body are inseparable ,in this life at least , and do have some sort of mutual correlations , interactions or whatever with each other .....What has that to do with anything ?...............
Because consciousness is brain dependent, and the brain is material, you can't have consciousness without the brain. Therefore, consciousness is material dependent. Now,.......argue about that!
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1433 on: 27/12/2013 19:33:08 »
I submit that Don just admitted that consciousness is MATERIAL dependent!!!!!!
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1434 on: 27/12/2013 19:34:38 »
Will somebody here,please,  try to prove  the following "empirical fact " to be "true " ?:
I am not gonna be tired of repeating this same simple question over and over again, untill  i get an answer to that , hopefully :
According to the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " : "all is matter , including the mind" , and hence the mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity = that's a "scientific fact " : try to prove the latter to be "true " as such then, since all sciences have been taking this 'scientific fact ",or rather this core materialist belief assumption ,regarding the nature of reality ,  for granted as an "empirical fact "  , for so long now, thanks to materialism thus ...

Thanks , appreciate indeed .

Nice weekend .
Evidently you're not as smart as I thought you were.

Who's thread is this anyway?

It's your thread Don....................You provide your evidence!

Can consciousness exist without the brain?


See above .
I am challenging the current "scientific world view " ,and i say it is not only unscientific = unfalsifiable and false , but it has been also just the materialist false conception of nature .

Try to prove me wrong then .

Brain and mind are 2 totally different processes in any 1 given living organism = 1 ,and do thus have mutual interactions with each other , once again .

"The mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity " is just an extension of the materialist 'all is matter ,including the mind " false conception of nature ,or false "scientific world view " ,once again .

Is that so hard to understand ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1435 on: 27/12/2013 19:40:09 »


And of course consciousness and brain or body are inseparable ,in this life at least , and do have some sort of mutual correlations , interactions or whatever with each other .....What has that to do with anything ?...............
Because consciousness is brain dependent, and the brain is material, you can't have consciousness without the brain. Therefore, consciousness is material dependent. Now,.......argue about that!

The fact that consciousness, in this life at least , is relatively brain dependent ,does that imply that consciousness is material or biological ,as the "scientific world view " has been assuming it to be  ,thanks to materialism thus ? Does that imply that the mind is in the brain or that the mind is just brain activity ?Obviously ...not .
So, just try to answer that simple question i have been asking all along ,but nobody here dares to try to face ...
Amazing.........
 

Offline Grimbo1

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1436 on: 27/12/2013 19:44:31 »
Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.
no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1437 on: 27/12/2013 19:47:22 »
If the mind is just brain activity ,absurd,  how come the mind has causal effect on matter , and hence on brain and body or brain activity as well ? : is that some sort of backward causation ? haha = the mind causing brain activity that has allegeldy caused it ...

Do your won will , feelings , emotions, desires , longings ,love .ambitions, beliefs .....not have causal effects on your brain activity and bodies ? How come then ? ,according to you.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1438 on: 27/12/2013 19:57:39 »
Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.
no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.

Nevermind what i do happen to believe in ,that's neither my motivation nor my 'argument " in relation to trying to make you realise the undeniable falshood of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view ",  i just do keep my own beliefs outside of science , in total contrast with materialism as a dogmatic unfalsifiable false secular religion in science that has been imposing itself as the "scientific world view ".
Just answer that simple and repeated question then, i have been asking then .

P.S.: All beliefs are ,per definition ,unfalsifiable = unscientific , but they are not all necessarily false , as materialism is .
But , fact is , materialism goes beyond science ,beyond its method ,beyond its realm and jurisdiction , by assuming that reality is just physical or material .
Worse : that false materialist world view has been the 'scientific world view " = all sciences have been materialist ,in the above mentioned sense thus , while science should be neither materialist nor otherwise .
Science should be metaphysically neutral thus = an utopia so far ...
Science must thus be liberated from materialism ,if science wanna be less dogmatic and more scientific ....at least .
 

Offline Grimbo1

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1439 on: 27/12/2013 20:05:51 »
For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.
I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going to
accept you theory just on your faith in it .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1440 on: 27/12/2013 20:26:30 »
Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.
no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.
Exactly Grimbo,.......He has a spiritual agenda. And the minute anyone begins to agree with his absurd assertions, about consciousness somehow transcending the material brain, he'll begin to associate it with his religious belief system.

Brain activity equals consciousness.
Without brain activity, no consciousness.

Maybe he should start referring to his position as SPIRTUIAL AWARENESS instead of consciousness. He'll have to disassociate the brain from his theory if he's going to be the least bit consistent. In any case, I think that's where he is ultimately headed anyway.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1441 on: 27/12/2013 20:28:12 »
For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.
I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going to
accept you theory just on your faith in it .

Well, you already answered your own words : materialism is just a false conception of nature , just a 19th century outdated and superseded world view that was built on the fundamentally incorrect classical physics , just a philosophy ....just a  belief = unfalsifiable = unscientific, and hence its 'scientific world view " is also false , as a result , that's why science must be liberated from materialism that's no science , even though materialism has been taken for granted as science , as the 'scientific world view ", for so long now, without question .

Otherwise , try to prove to me that reality is just material or physical then , as materialism, and hence as its 'scientific world view ", and therefore as all sciences for that matter have been assuming reality to be,thanks to materialism thus  .

Deal ?

If you think or rather believe that reality is just material or physical, then try to prove that "empirical fact " , or rather that materialist core belief assumption to be "true" then .

Ok? Make my day then .........

If you think that this is just a religiously motivated thing , you're totally wrong about that : i just wanna make you realise the undeniable fact that materialism is false ,and hence the current "scientific world view " is also false = i just would love to see science delivered from that false materialist dogmatic secular religion in science ,that has been taken for granted as science , as the 'scientific world view ". for so long now, since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism , as many atheists and other non-religious people would love to see science get rid of its false materialist conception of nature or meta-paradigm .
A revolutionary and radical meta-paradigm shift, not just a paradigm shift , is hardly needed to deliver science from materialism , and that will be triggering a major scientific revolution, soon enough = inevitable = just a matter of ...time ......
« Last Edit: 27/12/2013 20:43:47 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1442 on: 27/12/2013 20:31:46 »


Nevermind what i do happen to believe in
That's right, you'll bring that up later. And BTW, your position is nothing but belief, no facts and no evidence. I think they call that FAITH.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1443 on: 27/12/2013 20:40:40 »
Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.
no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.
Exactly Grimbo,.......He has a spiritual agenda. And the minute anyone begins to agree with his absurd assertions, about consciousness somehow transcending the material brain, he'll begin to associate it with his religious belief system.

Don't be silly as to take that self-refuting and self-defeating religious agenda accusations out of  the closet again : that's not my motivation, once again : i am so pro-science that i would love to see it get rid of its false materialism,the latter that has been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view "  , as many atheists such as Thomas Nagel and others do whose works i have been extensively quoting all along ....

Quote
Brain activity equals consciousness.
Without brain activity, no consciousness.

Yeah, right : the tv set or radio device do also create or are their respectively received signals images and sounds ,or their own created received broadcaststs : Obama must be living inside of the tv sets ,as Hitler was living inside of the radio haha

Quote
Maybe he should start referring to his position as SPIRTUIAL AWARENESS instead of consciousness. He'll have to disassociate the brain from his theory if he's going to be the least bit consistent. In any case, I think that's where he is ultimately headed anyway.

Consciousness is nothing but its subjective content experiences states ...or qualia that cannot be accounted for by brain activity ,or by physics and chemistry .

Science has not been able so far , for obvious reasons , to link the subjective conscious states and experiences to ...brain activity .

Consciousness that cannot be but non-physical or non-material = irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again .


 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1444 on: 27/12/2013 20:45:06 »


Consciousness is nothing but its subjective content experiences states ...or qualia that cannot be accounted for by brain activity ,or by physics and chemistry .

Science has not been able so far , for obvious reasons , to link the subjective conscious states and experiences to ...brain activity .

Consciousness that cannot be but non-physical or non-material = irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again .
You're preaching to the choir Don.............., a membership of one. I think you're singing solo Don......................and off key I might add.
« Last Edit: 27/12/2013 20:48:40 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1445 on: 27/12/2013 20:58:57 »


Consciousness is nothing but its subjective content experiences states ...or qualia that cannot be accounted for by brain activity ,or by physics and chemistry .

Science has not been able so far , for obvious reasons , to link the subjective conscious states and experiences to ...brain activity .

Consciousness that cannot be but non-physical or non-material = irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again .
You're preaching to the choir Don.............., a membership of one. I think you're singing solo Don......................and off key I might add.

Ethos : don't be silly , please : try to read my simple words , they are so simple and so undeniable that you cannot misunderstand them ,can you ?
Try to answer that simple question i have been asking you all , all along :
Is reality just material or physical ? Can science be metaphysically not neutral as to pretend to know the nature of reality as a whole as such already , science that's still a relatively young effective and unparalled methodic adventurer like no other ,science which has been  confined  to just the materialist false version of reality , by making science "believe" that that's  all what there is to reality ,while such a great  young  adventurer such as science should be in fact totally free in exploring all parts of reality  with which science can deal empirically,instead of being confined to just a single part of reality . ..............

Get that ? How ,on earth, can you not ?

Hopeless ...

Ciao .
« Last Edit: 27/12/2013 21:01:25 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1446 on: 27/12/2013 22:38:44 »
For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.
I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going to
accept you theory just on your faith in it .
You're wasting your time; we've been over this many times, why he's attacking a straw man, why he has the burden of proof, the lack of evidence for the immaterial, the evidence consciousness is a material process, etc., etc.

He has failed to absorb any of it, or is being deliberately obtuse. He won't provide intelligent argument or explanation, just obsessively repeats his anti-materialist dogma, interspersed with insult-laden rants and chapters of copyright material from the speculative fringe.

Boring.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1447 on: 27/12/2013 23:14:40 »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1448 on: 28/12/2013 16:21:28 »
For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.
I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going to
accept you theory just on your faith in it .
You're wasting your time; we've been over this many times, why he's attacking a straw man, why he has the burden of proof, the lack of evidence for the immaterial, the evidence consciousness is a material process, etc., etc.

He has failed to absorb any of it, or is being deliberately obtuse. He won't provide intelligent argument or explanation, just obsessively repeats his anti-materialist dogma, interspersed with insult-laden rants and chapters of copyright material from the speculative fringe.

Boring.

Yeah, right : you cannot address my legetimate raised  issues ,so, it's very convenient to say what you have been saying here above,in order to avoid addressing those issues = self-defeating or self-refuting exit strategy : way to go , scientist: boring indeed .
I did deliver the arguments concerning the undeniable falsehood of materialism , mainly via relevant excerpts of top books on the subject .
That you choose deliberately to ignore all that , is your problem .
You have not been delivering any kind of evidence proving consciousness to be just a biological process = you cannot , simply because science is not yet able to tackle the issue or hard problem of consciousness , simply because science is still materialist , and simply because there are not falsifiable theories of consciousness out there yet .
So, what makes you think that consciousness is just a biological process then, since science cannot deliver yet any conclusive evidence regarding the latter materialist claim .

Furthermore , you cannot or you do not want to try to deliver the oxtraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the nature of reality : the burden  of proof is thus all yours to address ,since the materialist false conception of nature has been taken for granted by all of you ,without question , as the "scientific world view " ,so.

In other words :
"The mind is in the brain, or the mind is just brain activity " is just an extension of the materialist false "all is matter ,including the mind " version of reality ,no empirical fact .

Amazing how materialist dogmatic beliefs have been taken for granted as 'empirical facts " , even by some of the most intelligent people on this planet , a fact which proves that cognitive intelligence is not the highest form of human intelligence , not even remotely close thus .

Materialists and their followers cannot be but guilty of confirmation and other biases thus , by refusing stubbornly to face the undeniable falsehood of their materialist a -priori held beliefs , they have been taking for granted as 'empirical facts ", even in the face of counter -arguments such as the ones  that have been delivered by my tons of posted material and excerpts on the subject .
« Last Edit: 28/12/2013 16:34:00 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1449 on: 28/12/2013 16:36:22 »

I did deliver the arguments concerning the undeniable falsehood of materialism , mainly via relevant excerpts of top books on the subject .


Not evidence,............nothing but vague speculations.
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1449 on: 28/12/2013 16:36:22 »

 

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