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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 309741 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #150 on: 13/09/2013 18:45:43 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?


Because experiments, observations, measurements, and empirical evidence are all material processes involving material things!

Do not confuse material things, the material nature of science , or the material side of reality with ...materialism as a world view , philosophy , life style, paradigm....= 2 entirely different categories  .
« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 18:47:38 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #151 on: 13/09/2013 19:04:04 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #152 on: 13/09/2013 19:07:32 »
Later , alligators ...kidding
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #153 on: 13/09/2013 20:18:55 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .


I don't see where you have really provided another option than the ones I listed above.

ancient wisdom - appeal to authority, divine revelation
philosophy -  a prior reasoning, appeal to authority
personal experience - intuitive process, lucky guess, or divine revelation
other people's personal experience - appeal to authority
Expanding consciousness to understand consciousness - intuitive, or a priori reasoning
art, literature - intuitive process, more appeals to authority.
Paradigm shift - to what? Belief in the immaterial? Which can be known or understood by what means? See above.

Combining all of the above in some "holisitic" way does not solve your problem.
« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 20:26:03 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #154 on: 13/09/2013 20:39:48 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .


I don't see where you have really provided another option than the ones I listed above.

ancient wisdom - appeal to authority, divine revelation
philosophy -  a prior reasoning, appeal to authority
personal experience - intuitive process, lucky guess, or divine revelation
other people's personal experience - appeal to authority
Expanding consciousness to understand consciousness - intuitive, or a priori reasoning
art, literature - intuitive process, more appeals to authority.
Paradigm shift - to what? Belief in the immaterial? Which can be known or understood by what means? See above.

Combining all of the above in some "holisitic" way does not solve your problem.

I have little time left at my disposal, so , i am gonna just say the following  very quickly  ,for the time being at least :

Once again, science alone cannot help in that regard ,can just partly help by sheding light on the alleged receiver of consciousness : the brain , mainly due to the fact that consciousness is immaterial , science must be combined with what i mentioned .

Philosophy is no appeal to authority , philosophy can be enriched and developed by science results as well , not to mention the philosophy of science ...

Personal experiences do contain some cognitive elements as well ,not just subjective ones,  and can be developed by life experiences, scientific knowledge  ...by experienced spirituality, experienced art ...

Ancient wisdom also contains some cognitive elements ,  some cognitive elements of other people's personal experiences as well ....

For example, you can try to get in touch , so to speak, with your self , consciousness, inner life via meditation, via mindfulness, ....via other means as well .

Literature , art , music , philosophy, world views, ancient wisdoms , personal experiences, life experiences, psychology  ...combined with sciences can deliver some holistic approach of consciousness ...

It's not my problem that science is guided by a false meta-paradigm ...I am not responsible for just that haha

Just take a look at the following then :

 http://keentalks.com/primacy-consciousness/

P.S.: I am not really responsible for the potential errors that might or might not be contained in this post of mine , blame that eventually on  the speed of "light " through which i wrote this post .

Good night
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #155 on: 13/09/2013 23:18:56 »
What's so surreal about it then ?
You're just not trying...

Quote
Why did you ignore my other quotes ? because you could not answer them maybe ?
Most of your questions have been asked and answered repeatedly; did you have some particular question in mind that hasn't yet been asked or answered?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #156 on: 13/09/2013 23:22:19 »
I dunno .

That's just my take on that .
Can't argue with that; you could have just omitted all the preceding blah.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #157 on: 13/09/2013 23:26:18 »
P.S.: I am not really responsible for the potential errors that might or might not be contained in this post of mine , blame that eventually on  the speed of "light " through which i wrote this post .
Your choice, your post, your responsibility.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #158 on: 14/09/2013 13:26:05 »
Why  I like science:

Materialists may be like the guy searching for his keys under the lamp post because the light is better there, but at least he will know whether or not they are there. He can rule out that part of the lawn. The materialist hopes to build a better light to extend the search to more distant areas. At any rate, it seems preferable to groping around the dark, hoping to get lucky.

Rhythmic Brain Waves: Fluctuations in Electrical Activity May Allow Brain to Form Thoughts and Memories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121121130815.htm

The above link discusses research about one small aspect of brain activity linking cells to thoughts: "A new study from researchers at MIT and Boston University (BU) sheds light on how neural ensembles form thoughts and support the flexibility to change one's mind. The research team, led by Earl Miller, the Picower Professor of Neuroscience at MIT, identified groups of neurons that encode specific behavioral rules by oscillating in synchrony with each other."

To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me. Perhaps I have a small mind, but I  would rather know one small detail about the world with some degree of certainty than have a vague, fuzzy concept about life, the universe, and everything. I would rather understand the workings of a cricket.

Although there have been revolutionary shifts in thinking in  science, I think the bulk of scientific knowledge advances in these small increments, chipping away slowly at the nature of reality, one chemical reaction or oscillating neuron or particle experiment at time.
« Last Edit: 14/09/2013 13:27:56 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #159 on: 14/09/2013 13:42:50 »
Why  I like science:
<wise words>

Well put.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #160 on: 14/09/2013 13:43:34 »
More bananas for the troll.

[These banana comments aren't aimed at the troll.]
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #161 on: 14/09/2013 18:23:07 »
Why  I like science:

Materialists may be like the guy searching for his keys under the lamp post because the light is better there, but at least he will know whether or not they are there. He can rule out that part of the lawn. The materialist hopes to build a better light to extend the search to more distant areas. At any rate, it seems preferable to groping around the dark, hoping to get lucky.

Rhythmic Brain Waves: Fluctuations in Electrical Activity May Allow Brain to Form Thoughts and Memories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121121130815.htm

The above link discusses research about one small aspect of brain activity linking cells to thoughts: "A new study from researchers at MIT and Boston University (BU) sheds light on how neural ensembles form thoughts and support the flexibility to change one's mind. The research team, led by Earl Miller, the Picower Professor of Neuroscience at MIT, identified groups of neurons that encode specific behavioral rules by oscillating in synchrony with each other."

To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me. Perhaps I have a small mind, but I  would rather know one small detail about the world with some degree of certainty than have a vague, fuzzy concept about life, the universe, and everything. I would rather understand the workings of a cricket.

Although there have been revolutionary shifts in thinking in  science, I think the bulk of scientific knowledge advances in these small increments, chipping away slowly at the nature of reality, one chemical reaction or oscillating neuron or particle experiment at time.

Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ...

Not to mention that materialistic interpretations of science or of science results facts has nothing to do with the latter also .

It is also a fact that we all change reality , scientific experiments ,scientific results , ...whenever we look at them  , in the sense that we get a modified version of them via our human interpretations and perceptions of them  , or we just get a representation of reality, not reality proper  .

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption interpretation that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .
« Last Edit: 14/09/2013 18:44:54 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #162 on: 14/09/2013 18:51:26 »
@ dlorde :

If you have something intelligent to say , be my guest , go ahead , knock yourself out ,make my day and just say it .
I do not have time for silly games , or silly remarks ,rhetorics ...

Davide Cooper : Get a life , grow up ,stop trolling , or just continue doing just that , if that would make you happy and give you some sense of purpose or meaning ...: It's gonna be extrenmely difficult for you to climb that whole mountain all the way from its  very bottom  you have already reached : if you need any help in that regard , just say so , deal ?
Good luck .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #163 on: 14/09/2013 18:57:09 »
Why  I like science:
<wise words>

Well put.

Sweet dreams in your magical materialistic wonderland, Alice II


 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #164 on: 14/09/2013 21:04:09 »
Quote from: dlorde
... did you have some particular question in mind that hasn't yet been asked or answered?
@ dlorde :If you have something intelligent to say , be my guest , go ahead , knock yourself out ,make my day and just say it .
I do not have time for silly games , or silly remarks ,rhetorics ...
OK. I'll take that as a 'no'.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #165 on: 15/09/2013 00:23:23 »
To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me.

Come off it, girl! Have you ever met a philosopher who was looking for an answer, or was prepared to accept one? AFAIK the job of philosophers is to try to convince you that you don't understand the question, or if it is plain that you do (because you asked the question), that you couldn't possibly understand the answer.

"How does a cricket work?" is a big question because if we knew, we could explain pretty much everything from the origin of life to its probable destiny. "Why does the universe exist?" looks like a big question to a philosopher, but it is illogical nonsense based on human vanity, and therefore inconsequential.

The reason I like science is because what we do is VERY IMPORTANT and VERY INTERESTING. And I'm pretty sure you feel the same.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #166 on: 15/09/2013 02:36:36 »



Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ..


You keep accusing me and other posters of confusing materialism as a tool of science with materialism as “a world view or life style”, but I can’t help but conclude that it is actually you who is doing this. I am in fact specifically and only referring to a belief that the world consists of matter and energy, and the use of physical processes involving matter and energy in order to learn more  about the world. You are the only person here ranting about Soulless White Eurocentric Apes holding Science Proper captive. Materialsim as a “lifestyle” I assume refers to valuing material goods and money above knowledge, ideas, helping people, experiences, etc, and I do not know how I or anyone else has displayed or advocated that. I really think it is you who is confusing the two terms which are only superficially related in the English language anyway. Incidentally, “material” in English also refers to fabric, and although I am a materialist, I am not a seamstress, in case you might be confused on this point.

PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 16:42:31 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #167 on: 15/09/2013 03:11:11 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption [b
interpretation [/b]that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .



I have friends who believe in the supernatural, paranormal, and of course, religion. I do not ridicule their beliefs or try to convert them to my way of thinking, and we have some interesting and pleasant discussions.

I do sometimes feel, though, that people who look for supernatural and "immaterial" explanations are like spoiled children at Christmas who see an entire room strewn with presents and packages and say "Is that all there is?" before opening a single one and looking inside.

Excuse me for psycho-analyzing you, but you seem to attribute a positive value, or "sacredness" to the immaterial and see everything material, from simple atoms to the flesh on the the bone, as profane. But I see something sacred or magical in the nuts and bolts of reality and every chemical reaction. The physical world needs no supernatural embellishment - it's awe inspiring enough to me on it's own. 

I sometimes wonder if someone could prove the existence  of angels, whether after I got over my initial surprise, they would be any more interesting than beavers or octopi. Certainly no imaginary description of angels has held my interest as much.

DonQuixote: when you ridicule me for not believing in something more beyond what I can see, I pity you for not seeing all that is there, right in your grasp.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 03:47:31 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #168 on: 15/09/2013 10:28:47 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
He used to call me 'dear', but he's obviously switched his affections - good luck with that!

@ dlorde :... When you will acknowledge ,recognize and realise the obvious  limits of science , reason, logic ....when you will stop confusing materialism as an exclusive world view with science ....

Otherwise , just keep on cherishing your own materialistic illusions ,delusions and fairytales in your own materialistic wonderland , dear Alice .
As you can see, his patronising is as Cut'n'Paste as his 'arguments', and all the really cool stuff is conveniently beyond science, reason, & logic.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 10:32:32 by dlorde »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #169 on: 15/09/2013 10:39:12 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

and very modest about it.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #170 on: 15/09/2013 14:44:13 »
Of course, comments about feeding trolls are really just to make trolls think they're winning whenever they're fed. The opposite is true.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #171 on: 15/09/2013 16:57:09 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

and very modest about it.

So what ? I might be hotter than you could ever be as well haha,whatever that might mean .

We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 18:44:05 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #172 on: 15/09/2013 17:13:22 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
He used to call me 'dear', but he's obviously switched his affections - good luck with that!

@ dlorde :... When you will acknowledge ,recognize and realise the obvious  limits of science , reason, logic ....when you will stop confusing materialism as an exclusive world view with science ....

Otherwise , just keep on cherishing your own materialistic illusions ,delusions and fairytales in your own materialistic wonderland , dear Alice .
As you can see, his patronising is as Cut'n'Paste as his 'arguments', and all the really cool stuff is conveniently beyond science, reason, & logic.

I do use  the words darling , dear ....just as a form of courtesy , politeness ..that's all .

As for the rest of your "input " , instead of discussing people, try to discuss what they have to say , deal ? Otherwise , just have the decency to shut up .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #173 on: 15/09/2013 18:39:42 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption [b
interpretation [/b]that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .



I have friends who believe in the supernatural, paranormal, and of course, religion. I do not ridicule their beliefs or try to convert them to my way of thinking, and we have some interesting and pleasant discussions.


It takes 2 to tango,sweetie,  i just try to adapt my behaviour to that of the audience at hand .

Facts about something are not synonymous of ridiculing it .Respect is somethingelse .I can respect your views as long as you do not try to impose them on me as scientific facts or as scientific approaches , but the fact of the matter is : you do present materialistic views and approaches as scientific facts , or at least as scientific approaches : that way , either one who would object to that would be branded as unscientific ,irrational or worse , as that lunatic mechanical jesuit Cooper did in relation to the fact that i refused to share his mechanical views with him ...
Who was trying to convert anyone here ? Cooper as a mechanical jesuit was , for example, and when it became obvious that i would not embrace his mechanical faith , see what  his reaction was ...not to mention the fact that he still continues to play the fool in that regard as well .

I do have no problem with any world view, religion, current of thought , culture , people ...whatsoever , as long as they do not try to impose their own beliefs on others , in the name of science or in the name of any ...Jupiter ,Zeus or whatever for that matter ...

Materialists ,for example , are not only dishonest  enough as to present their own materialistic world views and approaches as scientific facts or as scientific  approaches , but they are in fact worse than that : they deliberately deceive people in the name of science as well = an understatement .


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I do sometimes feel, though, that people who look for supernatural and "immaterial" explanations are like spoiled children at Christmas who see an entire room strewn with presents and packages and say "Is that all there is?" before opening a single one and looking inside.

I do see the materialistic approaches regarding our immaterial side , for example , as the childish belief of some little kids who believe that Obama lives inside the tv .

The suprnatural does exist out there you gotta try to differentiate from ordinary fairy tales, kids' imagination, illusions ....Even that Russell's tea pot argument cannot cover the real supernatural out there ...

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Excuse me for psycho-analyzing you, but you seem to attribute a positive value, or "sacredness" to the immaterial and see everything material, from simple atoms to the flesh on the the bone, as profane. But I see something sacred or magical in the nuts and bolts of reality and every chemical reaction. The physical world needs no supernatural embellishment - it's awe inspiring enough to me on it's own. 


Everything in the universe is , per definition , sacred in my own belief,including chemical reactions, atoms ,sex ....(I am a happily married perfectly hetero guy to an angel of a woman i do "worship " : legetimate sex in my belief is even a kindda spiritual prayer , not just a biological process  ..... My artist side , that artist sensitive side brings me in trouble sometimes with people ,and does cause some misunderstanding as well in and by people : Get the pic ?  ): it's just that the implications of that  universal sacredness of everything in the universe in that  belief of mine regarding this or that on earth or elsewhere are a matter of degree ...-= a dog's life is not as sacred as the  human life ,but at the same time , saving a dog's life is a nobel thing to do as well = a matter of priority , balance , humanity , relativity,degree of sacredness  ....

Furthermore , i might even risk my own life and eventually even lose it by trying to save a dog's life ........there are many blanks like that that need to be filled ...

That awe of this world you get inspired by originates from your consciousness as a reaction to that you see ..., from your self or soul mainly , a soul you are trying to reduce to living organic matter = have you ever seen any non-human species being delighted or marvelled by the sunset , by nature ,by music, art,poetry  ... by the aesthetics of anything for that matter ? They might experience some lesser degrees of that , compared to humans ( no comparison in fact , just an analogy ) , but they would never be able to reach the level of humans or of rather some humans  in that regard  , not even remotely close .

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I sometimes wonder if someone could prove the existence  of angels, whether after I got over my initial surprise, they would be any more interesting than beavers or octopi. Certainly no imaginary description of angels has held my interest as much.

Ever occured to you that that might be beyond your or beyond any human imagination for that matter ?

You seem to have been overestimating the and your  human capacity of judgement or intellect as well  (dlorde said once that human intellect is no big deal though haha ) : you gotta use your heart as the highest form of intellect to just acknowledge the foolishness of your statements above : heart as no emotions, fee lings , or biological organ ...

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?

So, do not act like a bee on the back of an elephant ( no comparison, just an analogy ) trying to "figure out " what that elephant might be , just via covering the area  or part of that elephant where it happens to stand .

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DonQuixote: when you ridicule me for not believing in something more beyond what I can see, I pity you for not seeing all that is there, right in your grasp.

Pleading again , sweetie ? :

 I am gonna only sweetie you from now on....simply because i think that women are the most beautiful creatures on earth ...women are far more sensitive intuitive than we could ever be ,if they happen not to be mechanical haha at least , no offense ,  women are more intelligent in some areas we could never reach ....women are the ones in charge in this world and in our private lives as well, even though they even succeed in making us , men , believe otherwise haha ...
Guys might have some perverse ideas if i would call them that they do not even deserve haha


Well, i see this apparent material side of reality science tries to cover ,every single day of my life i do interact with all the time : I just do not interpret it   the way you do by pretending that's all what there is out there : this apparent reality of ours is just an illusion in fact :

who's really to be pitied here , if pity can ever mean anything for that matter or seve any purpose , is a matter of opinion indeed , a matter of wishful thinking as well ...sometimes ..

Take care , sweetie .

Try to read that unique book of Linda Jean Shepherd that might turn your own life upside down , by , for example , showing you why and how you were / are attracted by the materialistic mechanical world view , and why you do the things you do, among manny other things as well ...
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #174 on: 15/09/2013 18:42:07 »
Expressions of courtesy , politeness .....and affection are 2 entirely different things .
There can be no affection involved , do not worry , folks haha ,simply because i do know neither of you, personally ...

In short : Grow up ...
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 18:51:53 by DonQuichotte »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #174 on: 15/09/2013 18:42:07 »

 

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