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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 309495 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1625 on: 06/01/2014 17:05:14 »
dlorde :

You're a lousy reader and a lousy scientist ( which makes what you said about Stapp's scientific, philosophical and other skills worthless and irrelevent ) , since you still cannot see that QM have been superseding  the materialist mechanical determinist mainstream false "scientific world view " you are still equating and confusing with science  ,and you cannot but try to refute non-materialist views but through your false materialism = wrong from the very start= starting from a false premise or belief assumption which are ...the false materialist world view  that's no science,  that Matthew J.Donald provided criticism of Stapp 's work is worthless  also  , in the sense that he is a materialist, and hence most of his views he takes for granted as science are just materialist beliefs  : i will not read or listen to views coming from materialists ( I viewed them enough to be able to say that they are mostly materialist bullshit , no science )  , since materialism is false   , and hence most of your own views are also worth nothing , since they are mostly based on the false secular religion in science that's been equated and confused with science for so long now .
I said that classical physics were /are approximately valid but fundamentally incorrect : they are thus still valid of course , to some extent at least , QM have been superseding classical physics , in the sense that they can explain what classical physics cannot (especially thus at the atomic molecular and sub-atomic levels ) and more : QM thus do have more explanatory power than the fundamentally incorrect classical determinist mechanical physics .

See Ethics from the point of view of Stapp's interpretation of QT , and from that of neuroscientist Gazzaniga  here above  ...

P.S.: Those specific Stapp's excerpts you were asking me to display here are ,once again, 2 lengthy and 2 technical to post here .
And since i am not qualified  to try to give a summary of all that , i will not risk distorting them .
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 17:18:12 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1626 on: 06/01/2014 17:32:52 »
A materialist scientist such as dlorde   here who has been equating and confusing his own materialist false beliefs with science thinks that he is in a position ,ironically paradoxically enough haha , to question Stapp's scientific philosophical ethical ...work through his own false materialism which he has been taking for granted as ...science haha : tragic-hilarious : that dlorde still does take his own false materialist beliefs for granted as science is evidence enough for the fact that the observed is mind-dependent (we all in fact do distort the  "observed" objective reality  thus out there  via our minds through our a -priori held beliefs ,regarding the nature of reality )   , even at the macroscopic level thus : that illusory separation between the mind and the physical reality , between the mind of the observer and the observed is a myth thus = they are inseparable : QT has proved the fact that our thoughts ,consciousness or mind do intervene in  our interpretations of the physical reality = inevitable : our own daily experiences do prove that fact to be correct on the macroscopic level thus also .
Worse : scientists do design experiments in ways which fit into or suit their own expectations or their a-priori held beliefs : major proof ? : materialism as a false belief , a false outdated superseded 19th century philosophy , a false world view or a false conception of nature has been taken for granted as science ,as the 'scientific world view " ...no wonder .

Who's the poor scientist ,and the lousy philosopher , you dlorde or Stapp , the latter that has almost 50 years of experience on the field .
Stapp that 's a visionnary scientist thinker enough to dare to challenge the false absurd outdated mechanical materialist determinist mainstream  superseded by QM  'scientific world view " ...

The answer is obvious ...it doesn't take a genius to know just that .

Amazing ...
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 17:42:52 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1627 on: 06/01/2014 17:58:10 »
Just one more time, Don, before I give up trying to help you.

1. There is no conflict between quantum mechanics and classical physics. QM underpins Newtonian physics and explains a few things that are not obvious in a continuum model.

2. No scientist who understands and uses quantum mechanics thinks otherwise.

3. If you read my last posting, you will see that quantum mechanics cannot be dependent on consciousness, however you define it.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1628 on: 06/01/2014 18:46:17 »
Just one more time, Don, before I give up trying to help you.

1. There is no conflict between quantum mechanics and classical physics. QM underpins Newtonian physics and explains a few things that are not obvious in a continuum model.

2. No scientist who understands and uses quantum mechanics thinks otherwise.

3. If you read my last posting, you will see that quantum mechanics cannot be dependent on consciousness, however you define it.

1-I did not say there was .See above .

2.Who said otherwise ?

3-It's a matter of interpretation of QT : clearly Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others + all the founders of QT thought , and rightly so,that QT was / is mind-dependent .
Even at the macroscopic level , it is cristal-clear that the observed is mind -dependent ( we all distort the observed objective reality through our conscious a-priori held beliefs : materialists , for example , see life , nature , man and the rest of the universe as being mechanical determined ...dualists ,idealists or otherwise  do not ) : we all view reality through our own a-priori held world views that do shape our consciousness and hence our behaviours , thoughts , feelings , emotions, ethics , actions, ....
Major proof for the fact that the observed objective reality is mind -dependent ? ,even at the macroscopic level : materialism as a false belief in science that has been taken for granted as science or as the 'scientific method " ,since the 19th century at least thus .
Besides, we all do experience the fact every single day of our lives that our own consciousness does have causal effects on our brains and body via triggering our physical actions .
A fact only materialists idiots or fools can deny as such .
Since materialism assumes or rather believes that matter is the only reality out there , then it's pretty logical from the materialist point of view at least that the mind is in the brain or the mind is just brain activity , and hence the mind has no causal effects on matter ,brain or body .
So, try to separate science from materialism  then ,for your own sake ,as a scientist  .
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 19:45:47 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1629 on: 06/01/2014 19:09:43 »
Stapp's just doing the usual business of working back from an incoherent cultural/philosophic assumption based on special pleading, and struggling to find a way to connect it to physical reality. In this case the assumption is that people are 'morally responsible agents' because they have a special kind of control that only they can exercise - what he calls "the morally pertinent idea of ‘possessing free will’" - that somehow transcends physical causality (special pleading). Naturally, it's not easy to connect what is beyond physical causality to causal physical processes. The best he can do is find a point of unknown causality in QM (the outcome of decoherence) and say the (unspecified) magic happens there.

What puzzles me is why he, and so many others (usually religious apologetics) find it necessary to explain the abstract cultural conveniences of moral responsibility and free will in these terms. If there's anything more to it than having an excuse for (i.e. not feeling guilty about) blame, punishment (and, perhaps retribution), I'd like to hear it.

Personally, I see my free will as the freedom to act as determined by what makes me uniquely 'me' - my state of mind at the time of the decision, which in turn, is determined by the genetic inheritance my parents gave me, and a lifetime of development and growth, interaction with my environment and experiences; what I've been taught, and what I've learnt, and what I've thought about. That's what makes me uniquely 'me'; what else do the advocates of causal transcendence think should be involved?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1630 on: 06/01/2014 19:13:14 »
Just one more time, Don, before I give up trying to help you.

1. There is no conflict between quantum mechanics and classical physics. QM underpins Newtonian physics and explains a few things that are not obvious in a continuum model.

2. No scientist who understands and uses quantum mechanics thinks otherwise.

3. If you read my last posting, you will see that quantum mechanics cannot be dependent on consciousness, however you define it.

1-I did not say there was .See above .

2.Who said otherwise ?

3-It's a matter of interpretation of QT : clearly Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others + all the founders of QT thought , and rightly so,that QT was / is mind-dependent .
Even at the macroscopic level , it is cristal-clear that the observed is mind -dependent ( we all distort the observed objective reality through our conscious a-priori held beliefs : materialists , for example , see life , nature , man and the rest of the universe as being mechanical determined ...dualists ,idealists or otherwise  do not ) : we all view reality through our own a-priori held world views that do shape our consciousness and hence our behaviours , thoughts , feelings , emotions, ethics , actions, ....
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1631 on: 06/01/2014 19:22:22 »
You're a lousy reader and a lousy scientist ( which makes what you said about Stapp's scientific, philosophical and other skills worthless and irrelevent )
... that Matthew J.Donald provided criticism of Stapp 's work is worthless  also  , in the sense that he is a materialist, and hence most of his views he takes for granted as science are just materialist beliefs
Rather than address the arguments, you explicitly use an extreme version of the 'Poisoning the Well' fallacy - we're materialists therefore our criticisms are 'worthless and irrelevant'; priceless!

Quote
P.S.: Those specific Stapp's excerpts you were asking me to display here are ,once again, 2 lengthy and 2 technical to post here .
That rings hollow, given you're in the habit of posting entire chapters of other people's work  ::)
Quote
And since i am not qualified  to try to give a summary of all that , i will not risk distorting them .
So post the relevant chapter and page references (as I requested last time).
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1632 on: 06/01/2014 19:30:13 »
3-It's a matter of interpretation of QT : clearly Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others + all the founders of QT thought , and rightly so,that QT was / is mind-dependent .
Even at the macroscopic level , it is cristal-clear that the observed is mind -dependent ( we all distort the observed objective reality through our conscious a-priori held beliefs : materialists , for example , see life , nature , man and the rest of the universe as being mechanical determined ...dualists ,idealists or otherwise  do not ) : we all view reality through our own a-priori held world views that do shape our consciousness and hence our behaviours , thoughts , feelings , emotions, ethics , actions, ....
Do you really think 'Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others' were talking about subjective reality?  [:o)]
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 19:35:35 by dlorde »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1633 on: 06/01/2014 19:35:10 »
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity ;D
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1634 on: 06/01/2014 19:49:05 »
Just one more time, Don, before I give up trying to help you.

1. There is no conflict between quantum mechanics and classical physics. QM underpins Newtonian physics and explains a few things that are not obvious in a continuum model.

2. No scientist who understands and uses quantum mechanics thinks otherwise.

3. If you read my last posting, you will see that quantum mechanics cannot be dependent on consciousness, however you define it.

1-I did not say there was .See above .

2.Who said otherwise ?

3-It's a matter of interpretation of QT : clearly Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others + all the founders of QT thought , and rightly so,that QT was / is mind-dependent .
Even at the macroscopic level , it is cristal-clear that the observed is mind -dependent ( we all distort the observed objective reality through our conscious a-priori held beliefs : materialists , for example , see life , nature , man and the rest of the universe as being mechanical determined ...dualists ,idealists or otherwise  do not ) : we all view reality through our own a-priori held world views that do shape our consciousness and hence our behaviours , thoughts , feelings , emotions, ethics , actions, ....
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.

You're just projecting again : you are all so blinded and indoctrinated by materialism that you cannot but equate it or confuse it with science , no wonder that most scientists today do also  , since materialism has been equated with the 'scientific world view " for so long now .
That's by the way THE major proof for the fact that the observed objective reality gets distorted by the mind of the observer through his /her a -priori held beliefs or world views ,THE major proof for the fact that the mind of the observer does intervene in relation to the observed , and that the separation between the mind and the physical reality , between the observed and the observer is a scientific myth .
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 19:52:41 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1635 on: 06/01/2014 19:53:12 »

True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity ;D
When I first started reading this thread, I found Don very interesting and considered him to be quite intelligent. As time has progressed and I began to see this pattern of his, for constant repetition of his spurious sources, I've come to the conclusion that he is not as bright as I once thought. To tell you the truth, I don't think he really understands this questionable theory that he uses as his source. I doubt he's intelligent enough to separate the facts from the fiction and simply takes the assertions of these sources as real science. And he is so committed that even were he to realize the errors, he would just casually ignore them.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1636 on: 06/01/2014 19:54:39 »
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity ;D

Yeah ,right , just keep on deluding yourself then .
See above .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1637 on: 06/01/2014 19:59:20 »
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity ;D

Yeah ,right , just keep on deluding yourself then .
See above .
The only delusion being exercised here is taking Stapp's word on these questions for granted. Look in the mirror Don!
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1638 on: 06/01/2014 20:02:09 »
3-It's a matter of interpretation of QT : clearly Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others + all the founders of QT thought , and rightly so,that QT was / is mind-dependent .
Even at the macroscopic level , it is cristal-clear that the observed is mind -dependent ( we all distort the observed objective reality through our conscious a-priori held beliefs : materialists , for example , see life , nature , man and the rest of the universe as being mechanical determined ...dualists ,idealists or otherwise  do not ) : we all view reality through our own a-priori held world views that do shape our consciousness and hence our behaviours , thoughts , feelings , emotions, ethics , actions, ....
Do you really think 'Von Neumann , Einstein, Bohr , Heseinberg and others' were talking about subjective reality?  [:o)]

No, QT is the one that's subjective ( The founders of QT saw it as such ,remember ) : mind -dependent = a matter of interpretation , that's why there are a lots of interpretations of the Copenhagen interpretation of QT , the latter depends largely on the a -priori held beliefs or world views of the scientists thinkers in question,as we see that reflected in this very thread through Stapp's and through the materialists ' interpretations of QT  such as those of yourselves   .
The observed objective reality out there  in general , either at the microscopic or macroscopic levels , gets distorted by the mind of the observer through the a-priori held beliefs or world views of the observer which do shape his /her mind and hence his thoughts ,behaviours , ethics , actions ....
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 20:04:19 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1639 on: 06/01/2014 20:08:56 »
You're a lousy reader and a lousy scientist ( which makes what you said about Stapp's scientific, philosophical and other skills worthless and irrelevent )
... that Matthew J.Donald provided criticism of Stapp 's work is worthless  also  , in the sense that he is a materialist, and hence most of his views he takes for granted as science are just materialist beliefs
Rather than address the arguments, you explicitly use an extreme version of the 'Poisoning the Well' fallacy - we're materialists therefore our criticisms are 'worthless and irrelevant'; priceless
!

I told you you were a lousy reader , didn't i ? You have just confirmed that fact , once again :
I said that since materialism gets equated with science , then most materialists ' views, including those of yourself as a materialist thus , are just materialist bullshit , no science .
See above ,and try to read carefully what i have been saying .
Quote
Quote
P.S.: Those specific Stapp's excerpts you were asking me to display here are ,once again, 2 lengthy and 2 technical to post here .
That rings hollow, given you're in the habit of posting entire chapters of other people's work  ::)
Quote
And since i am not qualified  to try to give a summary of all that , i will not risk distorting them .
So post the relevant chapter and page references (as I requested last time).

Ok, next time then .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1640 on: 06/01/2014 20:12:28 »
It should be obvious to everyone participating in this thread that Don is beyond help. He won't listen to reason, he won't compromise, it is highly unlikely that he ever will. I'm giving up on him, more important things to do besides trying to coax him toward reality.
True; these days I'm posting for the exercise and entertainment - as I said before, whenever it gets boring you can just wait a while, and he'll always come back with some new inanity ;D

Yeah ,right , just keep on deluding yourself then .
See above .
The only delusion being exercised here is taking Stapp's word on these questions for granted. Look in the mirror Don!

Look who's talking : a paradoxical guy who happens to be believing in 2 mutually exclusive world views : don't you think that that fact does put you in no position to judge what others might or might not believe in ?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1641 on: 06/01/2014 20:20:23 »


Look who's talking : a paradoxical guy who happens to be believing in 2 mutually exclusive world views : don't you think that that fact does put you in no position to judge what others might or might not believe in ?
You can believe what ever you like Don and I'll believe what I find evidence for. And Stapp is obviously wrong on several counts. But that's OK, trust in your Guru if you like, I'll stick to the facts.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1642 on: 06/01/2014 20:29:58 »
Stapp's just doing the usual business of working back from an incoherent cultural/philosophic assumption based on special pleading, and struggling to find a way to connect it to physical reality. In this case the assumption is that people are 'morally responsible agents' because they have a special kind of control that only they can exercise - what he calls "the morally pertinent idea of ‘possessing free will’" - that somehow transcends physical causality (special pleading). Naturally, it's not easy to connect what is beyond physical causality to causal physical processes. The best he can do is find a point of unknown causality in QM (the outcome of decoherence) and say the (unspecified) magic happens there.

What puzzles me is why he, and so many others (usually religious apologetics) find it necessary to explain the abstract cultural conveniences of moral responsibility and free will in these terms. If there's anything more to it than having an excuse for (i.e. not feeling guilty about) blame, punishment (and, perhaps retribution), I'd like to hear it.

Personally, I see my free will as the freedom to act as determined by what makes me uniquely 'me' - my state of mind at the time of the decision, which in turn, is determined by the genetic inheritance my parents gave me, and a lifetime of development and growth, interaction with my environment and experiences; what I've been taught, and what I've learnt, and what I've thought about. That's what makes me uniquely 'me'; what else do the advocates of causal transcendence think should be involved?

You don't think , you just assume that you think : it's your materialist world view that shapes your mind that's been doing the 'thinking " for you .
You're not the one doing the thinking here thus : that's just your materialist world view that's doing just that on your behalf , your own materialist world view that shapes your mind and thus thoughts , behaviour , actions, ethics ...
Materialism that can only be mechanical and determinist : so, how can you talk about free will within the framework of materialism then ? absurd .
materialism that was built on the 19th century mechanical determinist approximately valid and fundamentally incorrect classical physics .
Since materialism assumes or rather believes that matter is the only reality out there , then the mind is in the brain , or the mind is just brain activity,and hence the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body  : where does that free will you were talking about come from then ,within the framework of materialism ?
How can free will rise from the classically materialist mechanical determinist conception of the physical reality or of  the physical  brain then ? 
at the other hand , it is an undeniable fact we do experience every single day of our own lives that consciousness does have fundamental causal effects on our brains and bodies at the macroscopic level thus ,why then can't the mind intervene at the quantum level as well ?


See above ..........
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1643 on: 06/01/2014 20:35:03 »


Look who's talking : a paradoxical guy who happens to be believing in 2 mutually exclusive world views : don't you think that that fact does put you in no position to judge what others might or might not believe in ?
You can believe what ever you like Don and I'll believe what I find evidence for. And Stapp is obviously wrong on several counts. But that's OK, trust in your Guru if you like, I'll stick to the facts.

Haha

What facts , paradoxical guy ?
The materialist "facts " or rather the materialist belief assumptions, or the scientific facts  ? : when you will be able to learn how to differentiate between materialism and science , then, and only then, i will be listening to you  .

When you will stop believing in  2 mutually exclusive world views ( The materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view " and what you called your faith ) ,  then and only then , i will be taking you seriously ...

Deal ?
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 20:38:06 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1644 on: 06/01/2014 20:45:58 »
Folks :

In short :

The objective reality  out there is way beyond our reach , and beyond  that of science as well , since science is just a human activity , and since the observed objective reality out there gets distorted by the minds of the observers through their a-priori held beliefs or world views that do shape their minds , and hence their thoughts , behaviours , ethics , actions ,views , opinions ....

Major proof ,once again ? : the materialist false belief or false world view that's been equated with science for so long now .
Objectivity is thus a myth , together with the so-called metaphysically -neutral science .
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1645 on: 06/01/2014 21:01:01 »
When I first started reading this thread, I found Don very interesting and considered him to be quite intelligent. As time has progressed and I began to see this pattern of his, for constant repetition of his spurious sources, I've come to the conclusion that he is not as bright as I once thought. To tell you the truth, I don't think he really understands this questionable theory that he uses as his source. I doubt he's intelligent enough to separate the facts from the fiction and simply takes the assertions of these sources as real science. And he is so committed that even were he to realize the errors, he would just casually ignore them.
I think he's intelligent enough, but he seems to have no idea of rational argument or critical thinking, always starting from an unsustainable assumption or working back from his desired conclusion. He gives me the impression he's used to getting his own way through bluff and bluster rather than reasoned debate, losing his temper or flouncing out if he fails.

Quite amusing though ;)
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1646 on: 06/01/2014 21:02:20 »
Folks :

In short :

The objective reality  out there is way beyond our reach , and beyond  that of science as well ,
And beyond Stapp and DonQuichotte as well if we are to accept these preposterous immaterial assertions. In final analysis, nothing can be known, nothing we see is really there, nothing we measure is valid, even the sound we hear is only illusion, so I might as well quit listening to your crab Don because you're not real either nor will you ever be!..........................right?
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 22:01:02 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1647 on: 06/01/2014 21:04:41 »
When I first started reading this thread, I found Don very interesting and considered him to be quite intelligent. As time has progressed and I began to see this pattern of his, for constant repetition of his spurious sources, I've come to the conclusion that he is not as bright as I once thought. To tell you the truth, I don't think he really understands this questionable theory that he uses as his source. I doubt he's intelligent enough to separate the facts from the fiction and simply takes the assertions of these sources as real science. And he is so committed that even were he to realize the errors, he would just casually ignore them.
I think he's intelligent enough, but he seems to have no idea of rational argument or critical thinking, always starting from an unsustainable assumption or working back from his desired conclusion. He gives me the impression he's used to getting his own way through bluff and bluster rather than reasoned debate, losing his temper or flouncing out if he fails.

Quite amusing though ;)
Just a spoiled little BRAT. I wonder if he's even 21 years old yet, still wet behind the ears!
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1648 on: 06/01/2014 21:15:10 »
Reminds me of an Arab Muslim I used to know. His father owned a vast amount of Gulf oil and this son of his thought the world revolved around himself and every thing he touched. Don reminds me a lot of that spoiled brat, makes me wonder what allegiances Don might secretly have ..........just wondering???
« Last Edit: 06/01/2014 21:26:20 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1649 on: 06/01/2014 21:57:37 »
No, QT is the one that's subjective ( The founders of QT saw it as such ,remember ) : mind -dependent = a matter of interpretation , that's why there are a lots of interpretations of the Copenhagen interpretation of QT , the latter depends largely on the a -priori held beliefs or world views of the scientists thinkers in question,as we see that reflected in this very thread through Stapp's and through the materialists ' interpretations of QT  such as those of yourselves   .
Oh dear; no, QM is emphatically not subjective, the 'founders' of QM didn't think so either. Yes, there are a number of interpretations of QM, and which interpretation you subscribe to is (obviously) subjective, but they're just interpretations - ways to visualise what is happening; they make no difference whatsoever to the QM calculations. The maths tells you precisely what to expect if you do any given experiment.

Equally obviously, every observer has a subjective view of any event - in relativity, two observers in relative motion will see each other's clocks run slow. This is a real effect, and by understanding the physics behind it, the two observers can agree on a common view of the situation.

Quote
The observed objective reality out there  in general , either at the microscopic or macroscopic levels , gets distorted by the mind of the observer through the a-priori held beliefs or world views of the observer which do shape his /her mind and hence his thoughts ,behaviours , ethics , actions ....
??? Nobody is denying that reality has a distorted representation in mind of the observer, that's why the scientific method was developed. That has nothing to do with the subjective nature of context-dependent observations or quantum decoherence.

If you want a full discussion of the relationship between QM and consciousness, you'll find it here:

Is Consciousness Involved in Wave Function Collapse?

You'll need to understand the difference between a 'pure' and a 'mixed' state, between 'unitary' and 'non-unitary' processes, and between 'decoherence' and the 'collapse of the wave function'. Be very careful not to jump to conclusions & to be sure you understand exactly what they're saying.

Then you can see the difference between saying 'QM is subjective' and the measurement problem (i.e. it takes a conscious observer to perceive a single outcome).

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy gives the background to the measurement problem.

You might be interested in a recent paper that shows how standard quantum statistical mechanics is sufficient to explain the unique result of a measurement and provides compatibility with classical mechanics: Solution To Quantum Problem (full article here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370157312004085).
« Last Edit: 07/01/2014 12:25:42 by dlorde »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #1649 on: 06/01/2014 21:57:37 »

 

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