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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 308530 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #175 on: 15/09/2013 18:49:02 »
Of course, comments about feeding trolls are really just to make trolls think they're winning whenever they're fed. The opposite is true.

Ever heard of projections ?

This would sound like feeding you , as the real silly fool troll here who seems to need some therapy of some sort  :
.............
It's not about winning ,silly : this is no competition .
It's all about trying to find out about the "truth " ,whatever the latter might mean or be  ...
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #176 on: 15/09/2013 19:09:07 »



Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ..


You keep accusing me and other posters of confusing materialism as a tool of science with materialism as “a world view or life style”, but I can’t help but conclude that it is actually you who is doing this. I am in fact specifically and only referring to a belief that the world consists of matter and energy, and the use of physical processes involving matter and energy in order to learn more  about the world. You are the only person here ranting about Soulless White Eurocentric Apes holding Science Proper captive. Materialsim as a “lifestyle” I assume refers to valuing material goods and money above knowledge, ideas, helping people, experiences, etc, and I do not know how I or anyone else has displayed or advocated that. I really think it is you who is confusing the two terms which are only superficially related in the English language anyway. Incidentally, “material” in English also refers to fabric, and although I am a materialist, I am not a seamstress, in case you might be confused on this point.

I was  referring only to materialism as , once again, a philosophy , paradigm or meta-pardigm in science , as a world view , as a life style ...though : do not confuse it with the rest .
Do not confuse science with materialism in that sense , once again .
Materialism in that sense you can trace back to the medieval time as an Eurocentric historic cultural  ...rebellion against the bullshit , excuse my French, of the medieval church.

You happened to provide that link concerning the "fact " that ensemble of neurons can somehow generate thoughts, via some "rythmic harmonious "  dances of theirs , metaphorically speaking then = oscillations, synchronisations,vibrations  ... ...

I said : that's just the materialistic interpretation of those scientific experiments , in the same sense that the "fact " that human consciousness is an "emergent " property from the evolved complexity of the human brain ....is : magical : Got that ,sweetie ?

If not , try to re-read what i used to say in that regard at least in my earlier posts = I see no point in repeating myself over and over again , in that regard at least .



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PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

haha

See above , sweetie : sweet dreams in that regard as well then , Alice

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #177 on: 15/09/2013 19:16:00 »
I have the weird feeling i have been talking to ..."grown-up " kids ...not only to machines ...on a presumed science forum, ironically enough .
I have enough kids of my own i have to take care of , deal with , ...

I do love them so much though  : my affection goes thus only to them and to my other beloved ones as well .

I am against adoption though haha : i have no room ,patience or intention of adopting you , guys : there are plenty of foster homes and institutions  ...out there .

Good luck indeed .
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 19:19:27 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #178 on: 16/09/2013 00:04:18 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg418329#msg418329

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?



No, I cannot exclude that possibility, but without some means to detect those alternate realities, I have no way of distinguishing between something related to them which is true, and something that isn't true. But you're welcome to imagine any alternate reality you like.

I don't think anyone has really tried to make you change your views. Some, myself included, tried to force you to define or expound on terms you use constantly in your arguments, to no avail. And I at times I did not see how your conclusions followed your premises, regardless of whether I agreed with either. It's the process in your reasoning that drives me nuts, not the outcome.

If "science proper" refers to science that includes or takes into account supernatural objects or supernatural forces that cannot be studied by any materialist, physical process, you are the only one I know advocating for it.

I do know of controversial figures in science who challenge traditional explanations and suggest other models. Sheldrake comes to mind. He studied ESP and  his "morphic resonance" theory claims that some kind of energy field directs the growth and development of living things. He does not, apparently, think differential gene expression can do the job.  I think his theory is unlikely, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it.  But even he does not describe it as an immaterial or supernatural process, he just says we haven't figured out a way yet to detect this field. Although he hasn't abandoned materialism, he is, never the less, faced with the same problem as yours - without anyway to detect, to measure, to obtain any information about his morphic field, it remains just an imaginary speculation as far as science is concerned.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 12:50:33 by cheryl j »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #179 on: 16/09/2013 00:44:55 »
We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............

Nah! Nobody was ever born this hot. It takes gallons of beer and years of patient selfabuse to cultivate a mind and a physique like mine. To say nothing of the moustache
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #180 on: 16/09/2013 17:26:55 »
We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............

Nah! Nobody was ever born this hot. It takes gallons of beer and years of patient selfabuse to cultivate a mind and a physique like mine. To say nothing of the moustache

Oh , no , you might have landed on the right address , Eagle , in order to be able to be taught some humility    haha : I used to be called Mr.Casanova or Mr.Don Juan and still am : I was also a Don Quichotte sometimes trying to "save " humanity or change it " ...I left memorable significant traces in most of Europe and some other earth corners ,both literally and figuratively : i cannot even count the broken hearts i left behind , the amazing things i did , experience ...i am not so proud of ...
When it comes to "self-abuse " , tons of beer , strong drink, cocke, marijuana , hash , xtc ...use : i was called the champ of just that i could use all that in a single night without ever losing control ...Sometimes we used to party for a period of more or less 48 hours straight non-stop ....

Oh, man , i will tell you all about it , if you would insist on knowing : you would hear about things i have done, experienced , felt , risked ....that might blow your mind away , things that might be beyond your imagination ...really and seriously : no exaggerations or bluff whatsoever ....I might even not give myself justice in that regard ...

P.S.: Be aware of the long term consequences of all those drugs, alcohol use , on brain body and mind : i kissed all that goodbye : i have been having a healthy life via good diet , sport , creative work ...love ...discipline ...meditation...

Not to mention that being born the way we were  is not something we can pretend to have any merit in , once again .
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 17:30:17 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #181 on: 16/09/2013 18:19:50 »
Good work, folks! Thanks for keeping him busy and out of the real world.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #182 on: 16/09/2013 18:53:24 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg418329#msg418329

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?
Quote
No, I cannot exclude that possibility, but without some means to detect those alternate realities, I have no way of distinguishing between something related to them which is true, and something that isn't true. But you're welcome to imagine any alternate reality you like

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .

Just take a look at the following , for the time being at least : i will try to walk you through these amazing dimentions step by step , simply because you cannot handle the whole package at the same time :no one can for that matter :

I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind ,among other things as well,  for example, but not as powerful as those of some of my relatives though , you would be amazed at the incredible powers of the human mind , if only one would try to develop them  = The sky is not even the limit :

I think that human consciousness does not only hold THE  key to unveiling major mysteries in this universe , but also that  the most important and next level of human evolution at the level of consciousness  is yet to be undertaken by humanity as a whole  , while grasping its incredible implications for all humanity :

Human consciousness that has been deliberately ignored and marginalized by materialism in science , for obvious reasons: there can be nothing more important for human growth, evolution, progress and much more beyond all that than approaching the mysteries of human consciousness though .

I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .

Just see this instead then :

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/telepathy/

I will give you other links concerning similar phenomena of the human mind ,another time then .


............

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I don't think anyone has really tried to make you change your views. Some, myself included, tried to force you to define or expound on terms you use constantly in your arguments, to no avail. And I at times I did not see how your conclusions followed your premises, regardless of whether I agreed with either. It's the process in your reasoning that drives me nuts, not the outcome.

Cooper reacted the way he did , simply because i did not wanna buy his exclusive mechanical world views ,concerning human consciousness at least , so .
Besides, when it comes to immaterial processes such as human consciousness or the nature, mystery or power of the human mind ,you cannot expect from me or from anyoneelse for that matter  to deliver some reasoning in that regard  .
The human consciousness or mind remain the hard problem in science and elsewhere nobody has ever been able so far to "crack the secrets or codes of " , i am no exception to that rule  .

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If "science proper" refers to science that includes or takes into account supernatural objects or supernatural forces that cannot be studied by any materialist, physical process, you are the only one I know advocating for it.

No, science proper must confine itself to matter and to material processes ,but materialists pretend to make their materialistic world views and approaches ...scientific, by reducing everything to just matter  , that's the problem mainly : major example ? : the materialistic "scientific " approach of human consciousness .

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I do know of controversial figures in science who challenge traditional explanations and suggest other models. Sheldrake comes to mind. He studied ESP and  his "morphic resonance" theory claims that some kind of energy field directs the growth and development of living things. He does not, apparently, think differential gene expression can do the job.  I think his theory is unlikely, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it.  But even he does not describe it as an immaterial or supernatural process, he just says we haven't figured out a way yet to detect this field. Although he hasn't abandoned materialism, he is, never the less, faced with the same problem as yours - without anyway to detect, to measure, to obtain any information about his morphic field, it remains just an imaginary speculation as far as science is concerned.

Yeah , i "know " that guy you mentioned here above : i do happen to be downloading his " The evolution of telepathy " video by the way : Rupert Sheldrake .
That's the problem with materialists , instead of trying to look for alternative non-materialistic explanations for phenomena or processes they cannot approach via their materialistic world views, via their meta-paradigm in science or via their materialistic approaches, they just resort to what a scientist has called " Promissory messianic materialism " =  materialism in science will be able some day to find explanations for consciousness ....= just denial , just a sophisticated dishonest exit -strategy , simply because materialism in science , per definition, will never be able to approach the immaterial consciousness ...for obvious reasons that have to do with the very nature of materialism itself .
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 19:06:55 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #183 on: 16/09/2013 19:04:21 »
Good work, folks! Thanks for keeping him busy and out of the real world.
[/quote]

haha

We're all both in this "real " world or "real reality " and in the other , at the same time , without realising that fact= try to figure that out via your mechanical magical world view then  .

The "real " world or "real reality "  is just an illusion though .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #184 on: 16/09/2013 19:12:52 »
Make no mistake, please, folks : I do love science ,more than you can  ever imagine,you have no idea .
 I just reject materialism as a world view in ...science , that's all :
To illustrate my point once again, i am gonna display this interesting article on the subject , once again , even though i do not agree with the assumption there that humans are able to know the ...future : not in the sense explained by that article at least :


Why Consciousness is Not the Brain
IN THIS ISSUE FALL 2010

Fall 2010 Issue

 
The Science of Premonitions
Author: Larry Dossey

Excerpted from The Science of Premonition: How Knowing the Future Can Help Us Avoid Danger, Maximize Opportunities and Create a Better Life by Larry Dossey. Copyright 2009 by Larry Dossey. Reprinted by permission of the author.

Physicist Freeman Dyson believes the cosmos is suffused with consciousness, from the grandest level to the most minute dimensions. If it is, why aren’t we aware of it?
For more articles about "Science", Click Here

“We don’t know who first discovered water, but we can be sure that it wasn’t a fish,” the old saw reminds us. Continual exposure to something reduces our awareness of its presence. Over time, we become blind to the obvious. We swim in a sea of consciousness, like a fish swims in water. And like a fish that has become oblivious to his aqueous environment, we have become dulled to the ubiquity of consciousness.

Why Consciousness is Not the Brain - The Science of Premonitions - Larry Dossey

In science, we have largely ignored how consciousness manifests in our existence. We’ve done this by assuming that the brain produces consciousness, although how it might do so has never been explained and can hardly be imagined. The polite term for this trick is “emergence.” At a certain stage of biological complexity, evolutionary biologists claim, consciousness pops out of the brain like a rabbit from a magician’s hat. Yet this claim rests on no direct evidence whatsoever. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry A. Fodo flatly states, “Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. So much for our philosophy of consciousness.”

In spite of the complete absence of evidence, the belief that the brain produces consciousness endures and has ossified into dogma. Many scientists realize the limitations of this belief. One way of getting around the lack of evidence is simply to declare that what we call consciousness is the brain itself. That way, nothing is produced, and the magic of “emergence” is avoided. As astronomer Carl Sagan expressed his position, “My fundamental premise about the brain is that its workings – what we sometimes call mind – are a consequence of anatomy and physiology, and nothing more.” Nobelist Francis Crick agreed, saying “[A] person’s mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make up and influence them.”

This “identity theory” – mind equals brain – has led legions of scientists and philosophers to regard consciousness as an unnecessary, superfluous concept. Some go out of their way to deny the existence of consciousness altogether, almost as if they bear a grudge against it. Tufts University cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett says, “We’re all zombies. Nobody is conscious.” Dennett includes himself in this extraordinary claim, and he seems proud of it.

Consciousness can operate beyond the brain, body, and the present, as hundreds of experiments and millions of testimonials affirm. Consciousness cannot, therefore, be identical with the brain.

Others suggest that there are no mental states at all, such as love, courage, or patriotism, but only electrochemical brain fluxes that should not be described with such inflated language. They dismiss thoughts and beliefs for the same reasons. This led Nobel neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles to remark that “professional philosophers and psychologists think up the notion that there are no thoughts, come to believe that there are no beliefs, and feel strongly that there are no feelings.” Eccles was emphasizing the absurdities that have crept into the debates about consciousness. They are not hard to spot. Some of the oddest experiences I recall are attending conferences where one speaker after another employs his consciousness to denounce the existence of consciousness, ignoring the fact that he consciously chose to register for the meeting, make travel plans, prepare his talks, and so on.

Many scientists concede that there are huge gaps in their knowledge of how the brain makes consciousness, but they are certain they will be filled in as science progresses. Eccles and philosopher of science Karl Popper branded this attitude “promissory materialism.” “[P]romissary materialism [is] a superstition without a rational foundation,” Eccles says. “[It] is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists . . .who confuse their religion with their science. It has all the features of a messianic prophecy.”

The arguments about the origins and nature of consciousness are central to premonitions. For if the promissory materialists are correct – if consciousness is indeed identical with the brain – the curtain closes on premonitions. The reason is that the brain is a local phenomenon – i.e., it is localized to the brain and body, and to the present. This prohibits premonitions in principle, because accordingly the brain cannot operate outside the body and the here-and-now. But consciousness can operate beyond the brain, body, and the present, as hundreds of experiments and millions of testimonials affirm. Consciousness cannot, therefore, be identical with the brain.

In science, we have largely ignored how consciousness manifests in our existence. We’ve done this by assuming that the brain produces consciousness, although how it might do so has never been explained and can hardly be imagined.

These assertions are not hyperbolic, but conservative. They are consistent with the entire span of human history, throughout which all cultures of which we have record believed that human perception extends beyond the reach of the senses. This belief might be dismissed as superstition but for the fact that modern research has established its validity beyond reasonable doubt to anyone whose reasoning has not clotted into hardened skepticism. To reiterate a single example – the evidence supporting foreknowledge – psi researchers Charles Honorton and Diane Ferrari examined 309 precognition experiments carried out by sixty-two investigators involving 50,000 participants in more than two million trials. Thirty percent of these studies were significant in showing that people can describe future events, when only five percent would be expected to demonstrate such results by chance. The odds that these results were not due to chance was greater than 10 to the twentieth power to one.

One of the first modern thinkers to endorse an outside-the-brain view of consciousness was William James, who is considered the father of American psychology. In his 1898 Ingersoll Lecture at Harvard University, James took a courageous stand against what he called “the fangs of cerebralism and the idea that consciousness is produced by the brain. He acknowledged that arrested brain development in childhood can lead to mental retardation, that strokes or blows to the head can abolish memory or consciousness, and that certain chemicals can change the quality of thought. But to consider this as proof that the brain actually makes consciousness, James said, is irrational.

Why Consciousness is Not the Brain - The Science of Premonitions - Larry Dossey

Why irrational? Consider a radio, an invention that was introduced during James’s lifetime, and which he used to illustrate the mind-brain relationship. If one bangs a radio with a hammer, it ceases to function. But that does not mean that the origin of the sounds was the radio itself; the sound originated from outside it in the form of an electromagnetic signal. The radio received, modified, and amplified the external signal into something recognizable as sound. Just so, the brain can be damaged in various ways that distort the quality of consciousness – trauma, stroke, nutritional deficiencies, dementia, etc. But this does not necessarily mean the brain “made” the consciousness that is now disturbed, or that consciousness is identical to the brain.

British philosopher Chris Carter endorses this analogy. Equating mind and brain is irrational, he says as listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.

To update the analogy, consider a television set. We can damage a television set so severely that we lose the image on the screen, but this doesn’t prove that the TV actually produced the image. We know that David Letterman does not live behind the TV screen on which he appears; yet the contention that brain equals consciousness is as absurd as if he did.

My conclusion is that consciousness is not a thing or substance, but is a nonlocal phenomenon. Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite. If something is nonlocal, it is not localized to specific points in space, such as brains or bodies, or to specific points in time, such as the present.

The radio and TV analogies can be misleading, however, because consciousness does not behave like an electromagnetic signal. Electromagnetic (EM) signals display certain characteristics. The farther away they get from their source, the weaker they become. Not so with consciousness; its effects do not attenuate with increasing distance. For example, in the hundreds of healing experiments that have been done in both humans and animals, healing intentions work equally well from the other side of the earth as at the bedside of the sick individual. Moreover, EM signals can be blocked partially or completely, but the effects of conscious intention cannot be blocked by any known substance. For instance, sea water is known to block EM signals completely at certain depths, yet experiments in remote viewing have been successfully carried out beyond such depths, demonstrating that the long-distance communication between the involved individuals cannot depend on EM-type signals. In addition, EM signals require travel time from their source to a receiver, yet thoughts can be perceived simultaneously between individuals across global distances. Thoughts can be displaced in time, operating into both past and future. In precognitive remoteviewing experiments – for example, the hundreds of such experiments by the PEAR Lab at Princeton University – the receiver gets a future thought before it is ever sent. Furthermore, consciousness can operate into the past, as in the experiments involving retroactive intentions. Electromagnetic signals are not capable of these feats. From these differences, we can conclude that consciousness is not an electric signal.

Then what is it? My conclusion is that consciousness is not a thing or substance, but is a nonlocal phenomenon. Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite. If something is nonlocal, it is not localized to specific points in space, such as brains or bodies, or to specific points in time, such as the present. Nonlocal events are immediate; they require no travel time. They are unmediated; they require no energetic signal to “carry” them. They are unmitigated; they do not become weaker with increasing distance. Nonlocal phenomena are omnipresent, everywhere at once. This means there is no necessity for them to go anywhere; they are already there. They are infinite in time as well, present at all moments, past present and future, meaning they are eternal.

Researcher Dean Radin, whose presentiment experiments provide profound evidence for future knowing, believes that the nonlocal events in the subatomic, quantum domain underlie the nonlocal events we experience at the human level. He invokes the concept of entanglement as a bridging hypothesis uniting the small- and large-scale happenings. Quantum entanglement and quantum nonlocality are indeed potent possibilities that may eventually explain our nonlocal experiences, but only further research will tell. Meanwhile, there is a gathering tide of opinion favoring these approaches. As physicist Chris Clarke, of the University of Southampton, says, “On one hand, Mind is inherently non-local. On the other, the world is governed by a quantum physics that is inherently non-local. This is no accident, but a precise correspondence ...[Mind and the world are] aspects of the same thing...The way ahead, I believe, has to place mind first as the key aspect of the universe...We have to start exploring how we can talk about mind in terms of a quantum picture...Only then will we be able to make a genuine bridge between physics and physiology.”

When scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple. In its place will arise a nonlocal picture of the mind.

Whatever their explanation proves to be, the experiments documenting premonitions are real. They must be reckoned with. And when scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple. In its place will arise a nonlocal picture of the mind. This view will affirm that consciousness is fundamental, omnipresent and eternal – a model that is as cordial to premonitions as the materialistic, brain-based view is hostile.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 19:14:31 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #185 on: 16/09/2013 22:01:13 »
Rather than rehash all the old debunking of precognition/premonition, here's a link that deals with most of that mentioned.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #186 on: 16/09/2013 22:07:46 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
Easy enough to say, but can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us? so far we've seen no indication of any special powers or intellect.

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I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .
The military remote viewing programs were shut down as 'too unreliable to be of any military value'. See Remote Viewing for more.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 22:10:34 by dlorde »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #187 on: 17/09/2013 15:33:28 »

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .



Since you are fond of stories, I will share one with you. Of course we both know stories and analogies are not proof of anything, just illustrative, but I hope this will illustrate why how one knows something can be as important as what one knows.

The was an internet scam in which a person would send out a large number of emails claiming to be able to predict the results of boxing matches based on inside information he had about the fighters. To prove his ability he would make a prediction about a boxing match that was taking place next week. To half of the recipients he would say boxer A would be the winner and the other half, Boxer B. If Boxer A won, he sent out another email to those for whom he had predicted Boxer A. To half of those, he said the winner of the next match would be Boxer C, and to the other half Boxer D. If Boxer D won, he emailed those for whom he predicted Boxer D and made another prediction -I’m sure you see where I am going with this. After a series of several amazing “correct” predictions, his final email recipients received an email about an upcoming fight in which the odds were ten to one against Boxer G, but he was quite sure Boxer  G would win. If they wished, they could bet on it, or, since there wasn't much time, he would be happy to make the bet for them with his bookie, who was also giving an additional 2:1 odds on top.  Just wire him $5,000.  Hard to believe anyone would fall for this, but $100,000 on a $5,000 bet is a lot of money and he was right again and again! The scammer only needed one person to take the bait in order to walk away with an easy $5,000, one person who was over-impressed that this person had been so consistently right, without wondering why or how he knew what he claimed to know.

You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this.
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 16:38:41 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #188 on: 17/09/2013 16:33:03 »
You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this.

Yes, indeed. This kind of information-poor situation can also happen where fraud isn't necessarily involved, and it's even more difficult to spot. For example, in finance. Tables are often published of the most successful brokers, or portfolio and fund managers, year-on-year. It's tempting to pick the ones that have been consistently among the top performers for the last few years; but let's suppose their performance is not due to their talents, but is entirely random... consider looking at the top 20% of a group of 1250 fund managers.

At the end of year 1, there will be 250 in the top 20%. Of these, roughly 50 will be in the top 20% at the end of year 2, around 10 in year 3 and around 2 in year 4. But if you then picked the 2 managers who had been consistently in the top 20% over the last 4 years, you'd be likely to have no more success than if you'd picked at random.

Which is why it should come as no surprise when selections by monkeys or throwing darts at a list often do as well or better than 'top' portfolio managers... Past performance is truly no guarantee of future performance (this is not to say that there aren't good investors & managers out there, but that it's easy to be fooled by relative performance data).
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #189 on: 17/09/2013 18:06:46 »
You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos.....

Brilliant scam, and reminds me of a doctor who always predicted the sex of a baby with 100% accuracy. He would tell the newly pregnant mother "it will be X" and write "Y" in his diary. Then if it turned out to be Y and mother complained, he would say "but you must be mistaken - look, I made a note in my diary!"
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #190 on: 17/09/2013 18:19:43 »
Rather than rehash all the old debunking of precognition/premonition, here's a link that deals with most of that mentioned.

I don't care about that : i , myself, do not agree much with that premonition stuff , as i clearly stated .

What the author of the article  said about materialism in science is my main point in posting that article :  he said true things about materialism as an ossified promissory dogmatic messianic religion in science,so .

Why don't you address just that then ?




« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:58:30 by DonQuichotte »
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #191 on: 17/09/2013 18:31:23 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
Easy enough to say, but can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us? so far we've seen no indication of any special powers or intellect.

Pathetic,Tragic-hilarious  :

 The behaviour of people who suddenly do realise they have been believing in a lie (The materialistic magical lie , in this case ) ,living a lie ...can't be more typical than this one of yours = very predictable .

Ok, i am a dummy then, satisfied ? Now that we have proven this fact to be true haha , can you disprove what i or at least what  that above mentioned article of that physicist said about the magical irrational materialism ?
I think you are just trying so desperately to derail the discussion concerning the magical phony unscientific nature of materialism you believe in , by attacking people this vicious tragic-hilarious silly pathetic way , by making me angry :

Haha : And all that coming from a guy who said he turned his back on the christian magical superstitions , just to replace them by another kindda magic : the materialistic one he pretends it to be "scientific " haha
Typical Freudian self-projections , i see = are you hurt , deep down , by the fact that you witnessed the massacre of your beloved irrational magical materialism ? haha , that's why you act now like a total mechanical jerk as a reaction , aren't you and don't you  ?
Really ? Are you gonna now resort to acting like a jerk ,by imitating that other jerk , just because you obviously are incapable of looking at the universe beyond your key hole or tunnel vision magical materialistic mechanical phony irrational faith  ? = you can deliver no interesting insights , ideas , ....beyond that materialistic magic of yours , you happen to believe in without any shadow of a proof ,not even remotely close ...

And you dare to talk about the intellect of other people ? haha : how hypocrit and lowest of the low can you ever be or become ? : Tragic-hilarious pathetic silly psychological self-defense animal mechanical survival oe self-preservation instinct of yours .
Really ? and that coming from a guy who said that human intellect is no big deal .
Besides, you might be overestimating your capacity of judgement   as well,obviously  .
Reminds me of the story i told you earlier , you seem not to have been able to learn anything from, concerning how Albert Camus was attacked that vicious way by Sartre and co., by expressing bold explicit doubts concerning the intellect and integrity of Camus , just because the latter was so right about displaying the obvious  hypocrit paradoxical contradictory nakedness of existentialism represented by Sartre and co ...hahah ....wao ...
Once again, instead of discussing people,attacking people,  try to address what they have to say , Deal ? Otherwise , just have the decency to shut up = just shut up in fact : your magical materialism puts you in no position to deliver any interesting ideas or insights ...

Well, dude : the emperor's really naaaaaaked , even a child can see that obvious nakedness of his: you cannot disprove the truth concerning that magical bankrupt dishonest phony materialism in science by just attacking people who happen to tell the naked truth about that despicable materialism that's in fact lower than christinaity itself , that's even a degenerate form of christianity ,as Nietzsche used to say about .....humanism .

P.S.: I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .

Quote
Quote
I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .
The military remote viewing programs were shut down as 'too unreliable to be of any military value'. See Remote Viewing for more.

I know : i searched for a docu on the matter ,i do happen to have in my pc , on youtube for Cheryl , but i couldn't find it .

Those remote viewing experiments did deliver some good results though during the cold war , sometimes, but they were shut down after the cold war , so they say : but , they were used against Saddam,for example , though ...

They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .

The point is : they did book some success though : How ? That remains a big controversy in science .
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:24:02 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #192 on: 17/09/2013 19:20:58 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
..can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us?

I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .
I'll take that as a 'no'. So we apply Hitchen's Razor ("What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence").

Quote
They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .
Sure, it's possible; but is it plausible that they're spending billions of dollars on surveillance satellites, spy planes, drones, and human assets just to cover up the success of their secret remote viewers? On the other hand, given the number of mistakes they make, they may still be trying it... :)

BTW - Great rant in that last post! :)
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:24:26 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #193 on: 17/09/2013 19:32:54 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
..can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us?

I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .
I'll take that as a 'no'. So we apply Hitchen's Razor ("What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence").

Quote
They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .
Sure, it's possible; but is it plausible that they're spending billions of dollars on surveillance satellites, spy planes, drones, and human assets just to cover up the success of their secret remote viewers? On the other hand, given the number of mistakes they make, they may still be trying it... :)

BTW - Great rant in that last post! :)

Irrelevent to the very existence of telepathy ....and to other paranormal phenomena one can develop his/her  contacts with : humans are just in their childish stage of evolution at the level of consciousness as the next and most important form of evolution of them all , humanity is yet to undertake as a whole : This is just the beginning : and there might be some advances regarding the approaches of the paranormal booked by some powerful governments they keep hidden from the large public, for obvious reasons as well : you're too dumb to look beyond your materialistic magical nose to be able to grasp just that  .

I think you should read the rest of what i said here above i did just add .
I think you should look in the mirror first, regarding your stupid belief in that magical 'scientific " materialism as a degenerate form of christianity,the latter  you said you abandoned earlier  :

= You rejected christianity just to replace it by a lower magical belief = materialism , the latter as a degenerate form of christianity .

Are you afraid to look in the mirror  ? That's why you avoid just that , by accusing , judging and attacking your opponent ....haha : no wonder = very predictable indeed .

"People accuse and judge others , in order to avoid being accused or judged themselves ..."  Albert Camus , or in words to that same effect at least .

You know what : just spare me your magical mechanical key hole bullshit , simply because you have nothing interesting to offer beyond that ...

P.S.: You will get no response from me from now on = you do not deserve even just that .


« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:46:19 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #194 on: 17/09/2013 20:31:10 »

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .



Since you are fond of stories, I will share one with you. Of course we both know stories and analogies are not proof of anything, just illustrative, but I hope this will illustrate why how one knows something can be as important as what one knows.

The was an internet scam in which a person would send out a large number of emails claiming to be able to predict the results of boxing matches based on inside information he had about the fighters. To prove his ability he would make a prediction about a boxing match that was taking place next week. To half of the recipients he would say boxer A would be the winner and the other half, Boxer B. If Boxer A won, he sent out another email to those for whom he had predicted Boxer A. To half of those, he said the winner of the next match would be Boxer C, and to the other half Boxer D. If Boxer D won, he emailed those for whom he predicted Boxer D and made another prediction -I’m sure you see where I am going with this. After a series of several amazing “correct” predictions, his final email recipients received an email about an upcoming fight in which the odds were ten to one against Boxer G, but he was quite sure Boxer  G would win. If they wished, they could bet on it, or, since there wasn't much time, he would be happy to make the bet for them with his bookie, who was also giving an additional 2:1 odds on top.  Just wire him $5,000.  Hard to believe anyone would fall for this, but $100,000 on a $5,000 bet is a lot of money and he was right again and again! The scammer only needed one person to take the bait in order to walk away with an easy $5,000, one person who was over-impressed that this person had been so consistently right, without wondering why or how he knew what he claimed to know.

You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this
.

What kindda silly "reasoning" is this then ? Unbelievable :
You're telling a particular ordinary story humanity has been experiencing some perfectly natural forms or other of since day 1= no big deal = makes part of the human nature one should try to be alert of , should try to improve ,recognize as such ... ,while you are trying to extract many unfounded unrelated generalisations from it it cannot deliver ....

Human deception and self-deceit are common knowledge since day 1 ,one must be aware of : you're behaving as if you have just discovered some breakthrough nobody but you knew,come on , be serious .

You can try to perform any ritual paradoxical distractory dances like that all you like   , but that cannot make the facts go away , no way:

Facts such as the fact that materialism is a kindda degenerate form of christianity in ...science , ironically enough .

Facts such as the fact that science can cover only its own limited realm : the natural reality , can cover only matter and material processes .

Facts such as the fact that the realm of science is just a tiny piece of reality , or just the apparent material side of reality .

Facts such as the fact that there are many other levels of reality out there ,science cannot , per definition, cover .

Facts such as the fact that there are indeed many illusions , delusions, fairy tales, myths ...out there , we should try not to confuse with the real paranormal, no matter how difficult that might be ...the real paranormal that's obviously out of reach of that famous Russell's tea pot argument ...

Other facts do not come to mind right now , due to the fact that i was outraged by the dishonesty hypocrisy denials projections ...of yet another disappointing  lunatic here : dlorde ...
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 20:38:33 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #195 on: 17/09/2013 20:32:31 »
A Greek says : All Greeks are ...liars haha : a famous paradox in logic.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #196 on: 17/09/2013 20:43:16 »
So much for our "rationa logical scientific " people here , my ass,excuse my French or Dutch, or just Arabic  ...haha
Unbelievable: it's like talking to a ...wall .
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 20:45:47 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #197 on: 17/09/2013 21:47:39 »
he said true things about materialism as an ossified promissory dogmatic messianic religion in science,so .

What don't you address just that then ?
OK. He's welcome to his opinion; but I will address that extract (it's an easy target and I've got time).

Quote
[P]romissary materialism [is] a superstition without a rational foundation,” Eccles says. “[It] is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists . . .who confuse their religion with their science. It has all the features of a messianic prophecy.”
The 'straw-ogre' argument. Scientists and materialists have a broad range of opinion. I'm sure there are a few fanatics, but the vast majority are just taking a pragmatic evidence-based approach. It's possible Eccles & Popper encountered a disproportionate number of fanatics in their rarified circles - they do tend to use their elbows and shout loudest. Empty vessels and all that.

Quote
He acknowledged that arrested brain development in childhood can lead to mental retardation, that strokes or blows to the head can abolish memory or consciousness, and that certain chemicals can change the quality of thought. But to consider this as proof that the brain actually makes consciousness, James said, is irrational.
A good thing people don't consider it proof. It's just yet more circumstantial evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis.

Quote
Equating mind and brain is irrational, he says as listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.
A good thing nobody is equating mind and brain; the consensus is that one is a function of the other. The radio analogy is popular but weak - if you examine a radio you'll see an antenna, receiver, decoder, amplifier, etc., all connected together to make a radio - if you examine the brain you'll see no structures that could be assigned to the 'reception' of consciousness; when you damage a radio, the announcer doesn't get a stutter, or have trouble reading, or lose her sense of self, etc. No, when a radio is damaged in various ways it acts consistently with a damaged radio. When the brain is damaged in various ways, it acts consistently with something that generates a mind and consciousness. It's possible that it isn't the case, but that's where empirically informed opinion is leaning until there's evidence to the contrary.

So, they make some provocative straw-man arguments. They're probably trying to catch the attention of people without the awkward mainstream predeliction for evidence-based hypotheses. When you're in a small minority without a good argument, you need to shout loud and fake targets to attack.

Dossey then concludes that consciousness is not a substance (did someone say it was?) but a 'nonlocal phenomenon', by which he means, vaguely, 'infinite':
Quote from: Dossey
Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite [no, it isn't] ...Nonlocal events are immediate; they require no travel time. They are unmediated; they require no energetic signal to “carry” them [nor can they carry information]. They are unmitigated; they do not become weaker with increasing distance. Nonlocal phenomena are omnipresent, everywhere at once. This means there is no necessity for them to go anywhere; they are already there. They are infinite in time as well, present at all moments, past present and future, meaning they are eternal.
In other words, he's stretching the very specific meaning of 'non-locality', used in QM, past breaking point, so as to get complete suspension of the laws of physics - because otherwise his whole shaky crate of an argument wouldn't even taxi, let alone get off the ground. IOW, pseudoscience.

Dossey's final mistake is to recruit Dean Radin to his case - whose hand-waving pseudoscientific appeals to QM weirdness to support his heavily criticised, unconvincing, and ultimately unreplicable 'prescience' experiments, are the final nails in the coffin of this ropey piece of special pleading.

As Dossey says, "Whatever their explanation proves to be, the experiments documenting premonitions are real. They must be reckoned with. And when scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple...." No argument with the first part - the experiments are (mostly) real enough. But the evidence has been examined 'unflinchingly' (well maybe some flinching at the worst of it), and in detail, with attempts to replicate, and nothing unusual has been found.

The notion may eventually topple, but so far, what evidence there is buttresses it, which suggests that the real superstition is that it's 'non-local' QM magic. Time will tell.

How's that? too harsh? not enough ad-hominems?
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 22:03:47 by dlorde »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #198 on: 17/09/2013 21:54:01 »
P.S.: You will get no response from me from now on ...
OK, let's see if the evidence supports that claim :)

p.s. not such a great rant that time; materialism as a degenerate form of Christianity doesn't really work...
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 22:09:00 by dlorde »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #199 on: 18/09/2013 14:08:01 »


What kindda silly "reasoning" is this then ? .....

.....You're telling a particular ordinary story humanity has been experiencing some perfectly natural forms or other of since day 1= no big deal = makes part of the human nature one should try to be alert of , should try to improve ,recognize as such ....Human deception and self-deceit are common knowledge since day 1 ,one must be aware of...


As I prefaced my comments with, stories and analogies are not proof. They are only illustrative.

Um, I think you are actually arguing my own point here. And because there is such a tendency to want to believe things for reasons other than it is likely to be true, the kind of evidence, how ones knows what one knows, and the transparency of the process to others is important.

Ironically, there is not much difference between some of the paranormal, immaterial things you mention - remote viewing, ESP - and some  conventional material process proposed in a  research study in which the author simply refused to publish his data or explain his methodology. If I don't know how he got the results he got, I can't evaluate them. I just have to take his word for it.



« Last Edit: 18/09/2013 14:10:15 by cheryl j »
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
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