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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 309212 times)

Offline grizelda

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #625 on: 19/10/2013 20:10:15 »
Anyone is entitled to believe in anything one wants to believe in


So your beliefs are material but your wants are existential. You've mixed up your frames of reference. No wonder you're confused.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #626 on: 19/10/2013 20:56:03 »
...
As a scientist , you should at leat try to be relatively objective fair honest unbiased , as much as possible though , even though objectivity is a myth , even at the level of exact sciences, let alone elsewhere .
I completely agree
.

No, you do not completely agree on that , otherwise you would not have been confusing the unscientific materialism with science , for example .
Otherwise , you would not have been believing in that  obviously and undeniably false materialist belief  in no-less than science  ...

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Did science ever prove the "fact ", or rather the materialist belief assumption,  to be "true "  that the universe or reality are exclusively material ?
Absolutely not , never , ever
Of course not; the 'materialist belief assumption' is not verifiable or falsifiable. If the immaterial is undetectable to science, it is immaterial to science, which can deal only with the observable; and if you can observe something it's not immaterial - is it?

Materialism is undeniably and obviously false ( the very nature of consciousness, life , memory , feelings , emotions , human cognition, human conscience ....let alone their evolution emergence and origins , everyday's life ....the very nature of the universe... are reasons and evidence enough for that )  , as there are false and true beliefs ....there can be in fact only 1 true belief  in fact indeed , logically , despite the fact that all beliefs do have some elements of truth , to some extent at least .
Why do you keep on confusing the unscientific materialism with science , obviously , then ?
Why do you keep on believing in that materialist unscientific magical " emergent " belief assumption trick performance then ? You do even defend it as allegedly being the one and only hypothesis that's supported by the evidence or scientific data to date , come on .
Besides, religions do encourage stimulate and rely on the individual and collective religious active experiences of their followers ,both on the material , moral ethical and spiritual reality grounds = they are another kind of science , so to speak , simply put .
No wonder that science itself originated from Islam mainly, in order to deal with the practical pragmatic social and other material side of reality  , material side of reality religion or , just Islam, in this case also relies on, not just on the spiritual moral ethical one ...otherwise , there is no need purpose meaning function role ...of Islam on earth , if Islam cannot be rooted in the material side of reality also, on the reality ground on this earth   .

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... how can science  ever  go beyond its material realm for that matter, science's material realm that's not what all there is out there , obviously  .
Agreed. Science is limited to the material realm, and I'm fine with that. We'll just carry on observing, learning, and explaining how palpable reality works, just as always. You're welcome to ponder the impalpable & immaterial in peace.

Just stop  confusing  science with that unscientific materialist belief in science  then .

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All beliefs , the secular and the religious ones  alike , should be kept outside of science ,and outside of the jurisdiction of science ...
Is that so difficult to understand ?
I completely agree.  Science should continue to observe, make testable hypotheses, test the hypotheses, learn. It need only concern itself with the observable.

Just stop confusing  the unscientific  materialism with science then .

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I hadn't realised we agree on so much! :)

No, in fact , we do not agree that much with each other , as long as you keep on confusing the unscientific materialism with science, in lo less -than science , turning science into a belief , into magic ...in the process  .

Try to keep your own unscientific and false materialism outside of science and outside of the jurisdiction of science as well , then and only then , i can call you a true scientist , not earlier = you are not a true scientist , as the majority of scientists today are not , as long as you keep on confusing your own untrue and unscientific materialism with science , in no-less than ...science .

I think you cannot but agree with i have been saying ....if you strive to be a true scientist at least , a true scientist you , obviously and undeniably , are not at this point at least .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #627 on: 19/10/2013 21:00:28 »
Anyone is entitled to believe in anything one wants to believe in


So your beliefs are material but your wants are existential. You've mixed up your frames of reference. No wonder you're confused.

I see that we are lucky and honored enough to have a new genius such as yourself in house :
A belief is not a "thing ", that was just a figure of speech , darling .
Are any beliefs for that matter material ?
Where are they then ? can you touch them, see them....capture them for us ...put them under the microscope , scanner ...can you measure them, observe them , test them , verify falsify them, reproduce them ... put them in the lab ...?
When you do , tell me then ...
I think that the Nobel prize is made for you ...
God ...


« Last Edit: 19/10/2013 21:07:58 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #628 on: 19/10/2013 23:11:10 »
You could say that there are four frames of reference, say, reason, materialism, existentialism and empiricism. Because they are frames of reference, they don't overlap. So you can't use your existentialist poetry to criticize materialism and materialism has no business belittling your existentialist poetry. Mixing frames of reference is probably a major cause of misunderstanding.

Welcome , even though we have enough materialist magicians here already haha
What , on earth , are you talking about ?
Materialism and existeialism are just philosophies , world views , beliefs ....they do not belong in science , as all beliefs for that matter do not , obviously , either the religious or the secular beliefs ...

P.S.: We are trying here to talk ...science , pure science : the first thing to do is : purify science by distillating it haha , by rejecting the unscientific materialist belief assumptions in science that have been dominating science  for so long now :
Worse : those unscientific materialist belief assumptions or the materialist dogmatic belief system have been presented and sold to the people as ...science , ironically enough .

P.S.: All beliefs , either religious or secular , should be kept outside of science and outside of science's jurisdiction , science whose realm is just the material side of reality , the immaterial side of reality is thus a matter of ...beliefs , not a matter of science , obviously :
Anyone is entitled to believe in anything one wants to believe in , as long as all beliefs are kept outside of science and outside of the jurisdiction of science as well, including materialism existentialism and all the rest of those beliefs and "isms " ...


No need to be rude.

Anyway, Grizelda is right, and actually agreeing with you in a way. If something is, as you say, outside of the realm of science, then it's pointless to try to have a scientific discussion about it. It is like trying to prove scientifically that John Updike's last novel was better than Alice Munroe's. It is like attempting to write a business proposal in haiku poetry (although that might be amusing).

But you can't have it both ways - You can't say that something is outside the realm of science but also inside the realm of science.

 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #629 on: 19/10/2013 23:29:25 »
In other words, the conscious self is less a controller than an (apparently) integrated representative and spokesman for the underlying composite of processes.


The idea of consciousness as more of a spokesperson than an initiator is an interesting one, and seems more compatible with fMRI experiments that show activity in the brain before some one is aware of their decision to act. It also is compatible with confabulation in split brain patients, in which they make up stories to explain movements or choices made by the other half of the brain that is no longer sharing information.

There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.
 

Offline grizelda

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #630 on: 20/10/2013 00:12:38 »
Are any beliefs for that matter material ?
Where are they then ? can you touch them, see them....capture them for us ...put them under the microscope , scanner ...can you measure them, observe them , test them , verify falsify them, reproduce them ... put them in the lab ...?
When you do , tell me then ...


You have been invited many times to tell us what you believe, but never did: Were they too material? You've blown off half your brain cells deriding scientists' materialist beliefs, now you say beliefs aren't material. Tell us your beliefs and I'll show you your materialism.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #631 on: 20/10/2013 11:28:54 »
There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.
That's quite reasonable if thoughts are the patterns of activation of neurons across the brain. Each pattern of activation will trigger the next (although the patterns are dynamic, so the transitions are continuous). The difficulty many people have is in grasping that thoughts are these patterns of neural activation flowing across/through the brain, they're not something separate that causes neural activity, and they're only 'caused by' neural activity in the loose sense that a wave is 'caused by' water; waves are a patterns of water movement, and thoughts are patterns of neural activity. 

Douglas Hofstadter discusses recursion and consciousness at length in his book 'I am a Strange Loop', where one of his themes is the use of feedback to generate complexity (e.g. video feedback, where the camera points at the screen showing its own output).

I see the emergence and interaction of patterns of neural activation in the brain as analogous to the emergence of interacting patterns in Conway's Game of Life, where the individual units are static, with binary states, but the emergent patterns of their composite activities have emergent structure and interaction (oscillators, spaceships, etc). As if to emphasize the potential of such emergent complexity, these GOL patterns can themselves be used to emulate the GOL itself and as a logic language to create construct universal Turing machines (programmable computers) and computer/constructors that can be programmed to replicate themselves.

If a system with such simple rules and limited degrees of freedom as GOL can generate multiple levels of emergent complexity, to the extent that it can generate replicators and emulate anything computable, it seems less surprising that a system with many more degrees of freedom and more complex rules can, given a suitable environment and couple of billion years of selection pressures,  evolve structures like mammalian brains.
« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 11:44:26 by dlorde »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #632 on: 20/10/2013 15:54:34 »
A scientist named Marder isolated the entire pattern of the network of every single neuron in the lobster gut, and all of the neurotransmitters of every synapse. In theory that should tell you everything you need to predict what happens in a spiny lobster gut. The interesting thing is in her small system there are 20 million possible network combinations. There are 100,000 to 200,00 different ways to get the exact same behavior, which seems wildly redundant. In talking about the brain it is easy to lose sight of the huge numbers involved, the same way people forget about the vast amounts of time in evolution. More is sometimes different.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #633 on: 20/10/2013 17:26:46 »
You could say that there are four frames of reference, say, reason, materialism, existentialism and empiricism. Because they are frames of reference, they don't overlap. So you can't use your existentialist poetry to criticize materialism and materialism has no business belittling your existentialist poetry. Mixing frames of reference is probably a major cause of misunderstanding.

Welcome , even though we have enough materialist magicians here already haha
What , on earth , are you talking about ?
Materialism and existeialism are just philosophies , world views , beliefs ....they do not belong in science , as all beliefs for that matter do not , obviously , either the religious or the secular beliefs ...

P.S.: We are trying here to talk ...science , pure science : the first thing to do is : purify science by distillating it haha , by rejecting the unscientific materialist belief assumptions in science that have been dominating science  for so long now :
Worse : those unscientific materialist belief assumptions or the materialist dogmatic belief system have been presented and sold to the people as ...science , ironically enough .

P.S.: All beliefs , either religious or secular , should be kept outside of science and outside of science's jurisdiction , science whose realm is just the material side of reality , the immaterial side of reality is thus a matter of ...beliefs , not a matter of science , obviously :
Anyone is entitled to believe in anything one wants to believe in , as long as all beliefs are kept outside of science and outside of the jurisdiction of science as well, including materialism existentialism and all the rest of those beliefs and "isms " ...


No need to be rude.

Anyway, Grizelda is right, and actually agreeing with you in a way. If something is, as you say, outside of the realm of science, then it's pointless to try to have a scientific discussion about it. It is like trying to prove scientifically that John Updike's last novel was better than Alice Munroe's. It is like attempting to write a business proposal in haiku poetry (although that might be amusing).

But you can't have it both ways - You can't say that something is outside the realm of science but also inside the realm of science.

I was not rude , i was just being sarcastic ironic in relation to that stupid statement of that member i responded to : can't you see the sifference ?

What , on earth , are you talking about again then ?
Please , do try to think before responding , appreciate indeed .
When then did i ever say that something that should be kept outside of science , and outside of the jurisdiction  of science as well , can be inside of science or inside of the jurisdiction of science ? = an unscientific illogic irrational  paradox i am  the one who has been accusing you , guys , of , ironically anough , and rightly so, simply because you are the ones who happen to confuse the materialist dogmatic belief ssystem in science , with science , together with all those  extensions of materialism in science , such as those  materialist magical 'emergence " and computational trick performances regarding consciousness, memory , human cognition , human language (I just did start a thread concerning the origins of the human language by the way ) ...
So, you are , obviously the ones , who have been not only introducing and invloving the materialist belief in science as science , but you also do confuse the materialist belief in science with the jurisdiction of science , the latter when all materialists for that matter think they have been debunking all non-materialist beliefs through science and through the jurisdiction of science , while science's realm and jurisdiction are just exclusively ...material .

P.S.: I think that beliefs or belief assumptions cannot be kept outside of science in fact , that's a human unavoidable thing : proof ? = materialism in science , the latter that will be just replaced by yet another false naturalist  non -reductionist conception of nature in science, as Nagel said in that book of his = the human will to believe is inexhaustible indeed 
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #634 on: 20/10/2013 17:42:42 »
DQ: you clearly didn't read or understand what I wrote, so I'll quote it again

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The honest scientific answer to many questions is "I don't know - yet." Compare that with the dishonest religious answers "You can't possibly know" or "It was all done by a man with a beard in the sky, who you can't see but I know exists, for reasons that only he can comprehend. But because I know he exists, I have authority over your behaviour" and you will see why I have a deep disdain for mysticism, faith, and all that crap. 

If you had understood it, you wouldn't have wasted your time typing out a load of mysticism in response.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #635 on: 20/10/2013 18:02:42 »
A scientist named Marder isolated the entire pattern of the network of every single neuron in the lobster gut, and all of the neurotransmitters of every synapse. In theory that should tell you everything you need to predict what happens in a spiny lobster gut. The interesting thing is in her small system there are 20 million possible network combinations. There are 100,000 to 200,00 different ways to get the exact same behavior, which seems wildly redundant. In talking about the brain it is easy to lose sight of the huge numbers involved, the same way people forget about the vast amounts of time in evolution. More is sometimes different.

The whole is not the sum of its parts , silly :

This is yet another silly unscientific kind of mechanistic reductionism in science in relation to life or brain processes at least , in the sense that one can try to reverse -engineer the brain or life , in order to understand and explain how they might work : that mechanistic reductionist approach might and does work , sometimes , regarding machines , but not regarding living organisms that are , obviously, no machines ,as Sheldrake said in his "Science Set Free ..." book :

Living organisms that do inherently intrinsically possess self-organizing , self-replicating , self-sustaining ,self-maintaining ....flexible and adaptative creative qualities , no human- made machine ever can be able to match, not even remotely close thus , no matter how sophisticated or advanced it might ever be .

Have you ever seen any human-made machine for that matter that's capable of growing from its smallest and fundamental parts or cells genes , that's capable of replicating , reproducing itself , that's capable of flexibility, creativity , adaptation , evolution ....?  Come on .

Imagine trying to reverse -engineer a computer or a tv set , by dismanteling it all the way to its fundamental "particles " or components : you might learn how the computer or tv set is arranged , what is it made of ....but, you cannot possibly know that way alone how the computer or tv set might function or how they  really function as a whole .
Reducing everything to their parts is no scientific way to approach life , the brain , simply because you have wholes inside of  wholes inside of  wholes inside of  wholes ...all the way down to neurons cells , molecules , atoms , all the way to the sub-atoms "particules " ...that work all as one ...

Even mapping our whole human genome is no guarantee that we will understand how man  or life do  function fully , how man life do evolve fully , how man life do behave fully ...

You have whole living organisms that have whole organs inside of them , the latter have other wholes inside of them such as molecules composed of specific arragements of atoms , then you have atoms composed of a nucleus each and electrons "dancing " around it , the atomic nucleus is composed of arrrangements of protons and neutrons ,the latter are composed of hundred of quarks ...= wholes inside of wholes inside of wholes inside of wholes ....that do work together as a whole = the living organism as a whole that cannot be reduced to its parts = the whole is not the sum of its parts ...

Life or living organisms are a bit like the metaphoric mythical Pandora's box : many boxes inside of many boxes inside of many boxes ....
Isolating the specific boxes and therefore trying to explain the whole Pandora's box is a false assumption that explains nothing in fact , just some of Pandora"s  box parts , partly :
simply because the parts behave differently and become almost entirely different from their original components qua degree of difference , not qua kind or genre of difference though, when they interact with other parts (At the physical material biological levels at least : emergent property theory ) , not to mention that those parts all do have immaterial sides to them as well, science can , per definition and nature , not approach as such ......immaterial sides such as consciousness, such as memory , such as the immaterial side of life istelf, such as the immaterial side of evolution ................= that complicates the whole Pandora's box of life exponentially , whose extremely complex and limitless variables no advanced computer ever can cover ...as a whole, not even remotely close thus ....= an understatement .

 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #636 on: 20/10/2013 18:11:37 »

The whole is not the sum of its parts , silly :


yeah, that's the point.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #637 on: 20/10/2013 18:16:52 »
DQ: you clearly didn't read or understand what I wrote, so I'll quote it again

Quote
The honest scientific answer to many questions is "I don't know - yet." Compare that with the dishonest religious answers "You can't possibly know" or "It was all done by a man with a beard in the sky, who you can't see but I know exists, for reasons that only he can comprehend. But because I know he exists, I have authority over your behaviour" and you will see why I have a deep disdain for mysticism, faith, and all that crap. 

If you had understood it, you wouldn't have wasted your time typing out a load of mysticism in response.

You're the one who ,obviously , did not read or understand what i was saying so clearly :
Religion do not tell us everything there is to know = not even remotely close thus , logically and obviously :
That's 1 of the reasons , i guess, why God blessed us with minds hearts and souls , in order to make that endless dynamic restless journey-search for the "truth ", on earth , both via science reason logic ....and via personally individually and collectively socially spiritual quest , both on the material and immaterial reality grounds .

Religion does not tell us anything for that matter about cells, DNA , atoms , black holes or "white holes " haha out there , we have to find out about all that and much more via science mainly , the latter whose realm and jurisdiction are exculsively material , while the immaterial and spiritual moral ethical teleological side of reality are a matter of beliefs , each and every one of us should decide for himself / herself , in total freedom and safety security, not via coercion ...or via any kindda authority ...

"I do not know , i wanna know, how can i know ?  " are   core belief assumptions and facts as well at the heart of any religion for that matter as a result , obviously : religion just gives us some essential or fundamental hints or general threads paradigms to start our own journey from , a bit like true science whenever  it is guided by true or valid conceptions of nature , not when science  is guided by that false materialist conception of nature and therefore by its false materialist meta-paradigm....
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #638 on: 20/10/2013 18:25:51 »

The whole is not the sum of its parts , silly :


yeah, that's the point.

Ensemble of neurons ' behaviour is mostly, if not completely ,unlike the behaviour of each of its individual isolated neurons and the latter's individual multiple sequences , synapses , interactions ....
You can isolate any single neuron or enesemble of neurons you like , map their sequences, synapses ... and behaviour , but you can never be able to predict  that way alone  , let alone know , how those single neurons or ensemble of neurons would behave in their real collective environment , not even via the emergent property ...

You can map the whole human genome , but you can never know that way  alone  , how the whole human genome functions  as a whole in its own natural environment  : you cannot just deduce the latter  from the former  , no way .

That would be  a bit  like studying some of your own specific personal behaviours in relation to just some limited people and events in society or by putting you alone in isolation , Cheryl, and then pretending to be able to deduce from that all your potential present past and future behaviours = ludicrous , let alone that it is "scientific" .

You cannot explain life , let alone its evolution emergence or origins , just via isolating neurons , genes, atoms , molecules ....as you cannot explain human societies just by isolating and trying to explain the behaviours of its isolated individuals .....or the world as a whole just by isolating its countries continents .....let alone via just physics and chemistry .
As you cannot explain the whole functioning of a car just by isolating  and studying  its fundamental components , let alone its atoms , ....

Can neurons explain politics , society , culture , creativity , consciousness, human language , memory , music , art , literature, economics  ...sex ...?

Incredibly unbelievably tragic -hilariously enough , that's exactly what physicists materialist think they can do by "developing creating inventing ,making -up , ...a potential eventual mathematical theory of everything " , that would ,obviously , explain nothing .


« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 18:41:50 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #639 on: 20/10/2013 18:50:15 »
In other words, the conscious self is less a controller than an (apparently) integrated representative and spokesman for the underlying composite of processes.


The idea of consciousness as more of a spokesperson than an initiator is an interesting one, and seems more compatible with fMRI experiments that show activity in the brain before some one is aware of their decision to act. It also is compatible with confabulation in split brain patients, in which they make up stories to explain movements or choices made by the other half of the brain that is no longer sharing information.

There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.

Just tell me how do you deduce "thiought processing " , behaviour , "decision -making " ...from the neurochemical activity of the brain , or how the physical brain allegedly generates immaterial thought , magically ...?

Is the eventual correlation or interaction between brain and consciousness = causation ? Even the alleged causation is no explanation

Just try to 'compare " what you were saying with the tv set and its "created " images then haha
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #640 on: 20/10/2013 18:56:02 »
There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.
That's quite reasonable if thoughts are the patterns of activation of neurons across the brain. Each pattern of activation will trigger the next (although the patterns are dynamic, so the transitions are continuous). The difficulty many people have is in grasping that thoughts are these patterns of neural activation flowing across/through the brain, they're not something separate that causes neural activity, and they're only 'caused by' neural activity in the loose sense that a wave is 'caused by' water; waves are a patterns of water movement, and thoughts are patterns of neural activity. 

Douglas Hofstadter discusses recursion and consciousness at length in his book 'I am a Strange Loop', where one of his themes is the use of feedback to generate complexity (e.g. video feedback, where the camera points at the screen showing its own output).

I see the emergence and interaction of patterns of neural activation in the brain as analogous to the emergence of interacting patterns in Conway's Game of Life, where the individual units are static, with binary states, but the emergent patterns of their composite activities have emergent structure and interaction (oscillators, spaceships, etc). As if to emphasize the potential of such emergent complexity, these GOL patterns can themselves be used to emulate the GOL itself and as a logic language to create construct universal Turing machines (programmable computers) and computer/constructors that can be programmed to replicate themselves.

If a system with such simple rules and limited degrees of freedom as GOL can generate multiple levels of emergent complexity, to the extent that it can generate replicators and emulate anything computable, it seems less surprising that a system with many more degrees of freedom and more complex rules can, given a suitable environment and couple of billion years of selection pressures,  evolve structures like mammalian brains.

Pure unscientific materialist bullshit , sorry :

Just explain to me then how thoughts or consciousness are generated by the neurochemical activity of the brain ....Ludicrous .

If consciosuness , thoughts ...are just neuro-chemistry , then, please , do catch them for me , so i can see them or how they look like = pueril non-sense .

How do you deduce all that from the neuro-chemistry of the physical brain then ? Right , via the materialist magic in science of course , silly me .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #641 on: 20/10/2013 19:00:47 »
Are any beliefs for that matter material ?
Where are they then ? can you touch them, see them....capture them for us ...put them under the microscope , scanner ...can you measure them, observe them , test them , verify falsify them, reproduce them ... put them in the lab ...?
When you do , tell me then ...


You have been invited many times to tell us what you believe, but never did: Were they too material? You've blown off half your brain cells deriding scientists' materialist beliefs, now you say beliefs aren't material. Tell us your beliefs and I'll show you your materialism.

Go see a shrink, sis or bro ...or just try to buy some brain from the black market , since consciousness or mind are "created " by the brain then ....
Do not forget to buy some beliefs also = they are just "products of the brain , obviously " = "material " ...
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #642 on: 20/10/2013 19:47:15 »

That's 1 of the reasons , i guess, why God blessed us with minds hearts and souls

What? When? How? How do you know?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #643 on: 20/10/2013 20:38:59 »

That's 1 of the reasons , i guess, why God blessed us with minds hearts and souls

What? When? How? How do you know?

Why don't you address or rather dare to engage my earlier allegations then first ?
That was an unscientific statement of mine though , per definition , a belief assumption, obviously , no scientific one, but not necessarily false , as materialism is .  haha

Where do they come from ? Did goddess evolution  or mother fortuna  Theresa  nature  made them and how exactly ?

Since materialism in science pretends to be "scientific " , materialism you still do confuse with science , obviously , you would easily encounter no problem or challenge in trying to explain how heart (not the biological one though ) soul and mind  emerged evolved  ..... from just physics and chemistry haha

Dare to take the challenge ?
Oh, boy : that's mission impossible for you ,per definition,  since materialism in science is just a belief , a secular one , a false one at that = unscientific also , per definition .

Man can never be able to ban beliefs from science and from elsewhere  either  , obviously :   cannot be done : materialism in science will just be replaced by another probably false one at that also = the human will to believe is inexhaustible ....indeed .
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #644 on: 20/10/2013 20:45:41 »
Just explain to me then how thoughts or consciousness are generated by the neurochemical activity of the brain ....Ludicrous .
Did I mention neurochemistry? If you didn't understand the explanation the first time, you could try thinking about what was actually said, rather than taking fright at the reflection of your own projected misconceptions. Otherwise, I'm afraid you may be better off focusing on mysticism, or theology, where that kind of thing doesn't make much difference.

Quote
If consciosuness , thoughts ...are just neuro-chemistry , then, please , do catch them for me , so i can see them or how they look like = pueril non-sense .
Yup; you clearly failed to grasp any of it... 'Whoosh!', as they say.

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How do you deduce all that from the neuro-chemistry of the physical brain then ? Right , via the materialist magic in science of course , silly me .
It wasn't deduced from neurochemistry. I can only hope, for your sake, you weren't being serious.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #645 on: 20/10/2013 21:03:29 »
Just explain to me then how thoughts or consciousness are generated by the neurochemical activity of the brain ....Ludicrous .
Did I mention neurochemistry? If you didn't understand the explanation the first time, you could try thinking about what was actually said, rather than taking fright at the reflection of your own projected misconceptions. Otherwise, I'm afraid you may be better off focusing on mysticism, or theology, where that kind of thing doesn't make much difference.

Quote
If consciosuness , thoughts ...are just neuro-chemistry , then, please , do catch them for me , so i can see them or how they look like = pueril non-sense .
Yup; you clearly failed to grasp any of it... 'Whoosh!', as they say.

Quote
How do you deduce all that from the neuro-chemistry of the physical brain then ? Right , via the materialist magic in science of course , silly me .
It wasn't deduced from neurochemistry. I can only hope, for your sake, you weren't being serious.

Oh , mama mamia : for my own sake ? should i get the guillotine for that ? haha :

I did not read your stuff ,to be honest , i must admit , sorry,  i just took a quick glance at it , while assuming that you , as a reductionist , would only come up with materialist magical stuff , that's all .
I will try to read your stuff ,later on :
Can you summarize for  me , in few words , what you were trying to say  via all those links of yours ?

P.S.: If neuro-chemistry has not "created " consciousness , what 'did " ? and how ?
Later , alligator .

« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 21:05:44 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #646 on: 20/10/2013 22:59:56 »
I did not read your stuff ,to be honest , i must admit , sorry,  i just took a quick glance at it , while assuming that you , as a reductionist , would only come up with materialist magical stuff , that's all .
I will try to read your stuff ,later on :
Can you summarize for  me , in few words , what you were trying to say  via all those links of yours ?
Yes, I can; but this isn't Reader's Digest. Be a big boy and read the post.

Btw, commenting on posts you haven't read really doesn't help your credibility  <:o)
« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 23:01:49 by dlorde »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #647 on: 21/10/2013 00:20:32 »


The whole is not the sum of its parts , silly :

This is yet another silly unscientific kind of mechanistic reductionism in science in relation to life or brain processes at least , in the sense that one can try to reverse -engineer the brain or life , in order to understand and explain how they might work : that mechanistic reductionist approach might and does work , sometimes , regarding machines , but not regarding living organisms that are , obviously, no machines ,as Sheldrake said in his "Science Set Free ..." book :

Living organisms that do inherently intrinsically possess self-organizing , self-replicating , self-sustaining ,self-maintaining ....flexible and adaptative creative qualities , no human- made machine ever can be able to match, not even remotely close thus , no matter how sophisticated or advanced it might ever be .




Strange as it might seem, materialists are not in disagreement with you on this point. A reductionist hypothesis does not imply a constructionist one. The ability to reduce everything to fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from fundamental laws and reconstruct the universe, or even a squirrel.  Why does it not work the same backwards or forwards? Your answer is actually not that nature is self organizing, your answer is "God does it."   A materialist would explain it differently, that the nonlinear mathematics of complex systems does not allow exact predictions of future states. A materialist does not see anything magical about the emergence of properties when you go from one level of organization to another, although you obviously do. I could give you dozens of examples of emergent properties, and dlorde could probably even give you better ones, but I doubt it would convince you that it is not a magic process. That doesn't prove consciousness is an emergent property, but it seems more likely to me, than "God does it", an explanation that also effectively ends any attempt at a deeper or more detailed understanding, at least scientifically.

You repeatedly mention things like "emotions" or "memories" as being unexplainable with materialism. I sometimes wonder if you have ever bothered to think about what an emotion or memory or thought is. Even within your own conceptual framework of the brain as receiver of immaterial consciousness, I suspect you would have difficulty sorting various mental processes into either the "biological/brain/receiver box" or into the "immaterial consciousness from God box". But with your tendency to oversimplify and define things rather vaguely, it probably does not seem necessary.
« Last Edit: 21/10/2013 02:07:44 by cheryl j »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #648 on: 21/10/2013 00:56:05 »
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Why don't you address or rather dare to engage my earlier allegations then first ?

I have no interest in allegations, only facts and hypotheses substantiated by facts. Alas, you have not proffered any. 
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #649 on: 21/10/2013 15:57:37 »
Quote from: cheryl j
Here's one last joke though:
Ironically, the God particle still can't explain why the Catholic Church has mass.
Cute. From Concepts of Mass in Classical and Modern Physics by Max Jammer, page 7
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Our modern word "mass" ..., as used in physics, thus undoubtedly derived from the Latin massa, meaning originally a lump of dough or paste. As in the modern languages of today, so already in Middle English the term signified a lump in a more general sense, a conglomeration or aggregation of bodies. Such was also the meaning that the word had in the Latin for the Church.
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #649 on: 21/10/2013 15:57:37 »

 

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