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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 308156 times)

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #650 on: 21/10/2013 16:41:53 »
Quote from: cheryl j
Ironically, the God particle still can't explain why the Catholic Church has mass.
Cute. From Concepts of Mass in Classical and Modern Physics by Max Jammer, page 7
Quote
Our modern word "mass" ..., as used in physics, thus undoubtedly derived from the Latin massa, meaning originally a lump of dough or paste. As in the modern languages of today, so already in Middle English the term signified a lump in a more general sense, a conglomeration or aggregation of bodies. Such was also the meaning that the word had in the Latin for the Church.

Ha! excellent! what goes around comes around...
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #651 on: 21/10/2013 18:31:23 »
There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.
That's quite reasonable if thoughts are the patterns of activation of neurons across the brain. Each pattern of activation will trigger the next (although the patterns are dynamic, so the transitions are continuous). The difficulty many people have is in grasping that thoughts are these patterns of neural activation flowing across/through the brain, they're not something separate that causes neural activity, and they're only 'caused by' neural activity in the loose sense that a wave is 'caused by' water; waves are a patterns of water movement, and thoughts are patterns of neural activity. 

Douglas Hofstadter discusses recursion and consciousness at length in his book 'I am a Strange Loop', where one of his themes is the use of feedback to generate complexity (e.g. video feedback, where the camera points at the screen showing its own output).

I see the emergence and interaction of patterns of neural activation in the brain as analogous to the emergence of interacting patterns in Conway's Game of Life, where the individual units are static, with binary states, but the emergent patterns of their composite activities have emergent structure and interaction (oscillators, spaceships, etc). As if to emphasize the potential of such emergent complexity, these GOL patterns can themselves be used to emulate the GOL itself and as a logic language to create construct universal Turing machines (programmable computers) and computer/constructors that can be programmed to replicate themselves.

If a system with such simple rules and limited degrees of freedom as GOL can generate multiple levels of emergent complexity, to the extent that it can generate replicators and emulate anything computable, it seems less surprising that a system with many more degrees of freedom and more complex rules can, given a suitable environment and couple of billion years of selection pressures,  evolve structures like mammalian brains.

You know :
I did download the kindle version of "I am a strange loop " , yesterday : I have been enjoying a short work-holiday ,so to speak, so, i have read some parts of that disappointing book  that seemed , at first sight , so promissing , and so worthy of all the praise it did get  :

That book sounds like an authentic human and humanistic true confession, humanism extended to other species , confession  whose authenticity was its major 'argument " (You gotta be authentic to sell your products , yourself and your views and ideas : authenticity in art is a major must  also  , if you wanna be a successful artist ....The author of that book in question was clever enough to use all those powerful symbols of authenticity , true confession ...humanistic side .....)
The author's sophisticated mathematical maze and high abstractions regarding the patterns of thought that are allegedly created by the neuronal computation and emergence qualities properties ,are nothing new in fact :

I have read so many similar materialist magical non-sense on the subject of thought , consciousness ,....that i cannot but see how materialists try to sell their similar materialist belief asumptions in science  to the people  , in a mathematical high abstractions elaborate and sophisticated make-believe scientific theories package ,  that compare  or rather make those materialist machine and computers analogies regarding  the human mind and brain , life in general .....
So, it all comes down to those materialist magical computational and "emergent " tricks performances regarding human thought , consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , life in general ...as if humans and life in general are just some sort of machines ,despite the fact that that machine metaphor regarding life is so outdated and false , obviously = it all comes down to  physics , chemistry and neurochemistry , despite your outraged denials:  emergent thought patterns are just macroscopic  emergent computational higher levels of causation , while their core atomic molecular physical chemical roots can be discarded at that macroscopic level ,simply because humans are mostly concerned only by their macroscopic side of everyda's life  .
Living organisms do possess self -organizing , self -replicating or self-reproducing , self -maintaining , creativity , flexibility , adaptation, unique metabolism  ...qualities.
Have you ever seen any human -made machine for that matter that's capable of all that , capable of growing from its smallest fundamental parts or cells genes , capable of creativity flexibility , self-organization , capable of reproduction replication, capable of adaptation evolution ....?

In short or in other words :

As the author of "I am a strange loop " stated in his final chapter :
regarding the hard problem of mind vs body , or consciousness or soul:  we either believe that consciousness or the soul are just products of the laws of physics at their ultimate core , or we believe that the soul is outside of the laws of physics = dualism .

As a materialist , he cannot believe in that magical , as he put it at least , dualism that does raise many unanswerable questions than give answers (Who said anyway that dualism can give all answers : we don't know what the soul is , let alone how the mind -body interaction takes place ....among many other things we do not know on the subject ) ,so, he cannot but keep on going on the materialist path , regardless of where it might lead him to , despite all the inherent intrinsic incoherence inconsistency of materialism ,i say : like how the unconscious matter (IF it happens to be unconscious at least ) can give rise to the ,obviously , immaterial non-physical consciousness , human cognition ,to the immaterial side of  life , to the immaterial side of human language ...
The author just avoids that inherent intrinsic materialist paradox ,regarding the obvious undeniable impossibility that physics and chemistry cannot , per definition and nature ,  give rise to non-physical and non-material processes , he just avoids that , by taking refuge in a higher level of alleged causation : emeregent computational thought patterns that are allegedly caused by the brain via its complex neurons' interactions   , an alleged causation that neither he nor any other materialist cares to prove to be true : they just take us with them into that highly complicated mathematical and other abstract forest maze  to the point where we would confuse the tree with the forest  , the latter metaphor he used himself , ironically enough , when he said , and rightly so, that reducing man ,life or the brain to just atomic molecular reductionist processes , instead of studying the whole thing , not just via its parts , would make us miss the whole picture .
Well, he , obviously , misses and cannot see the whole picture either , either via or thanks to his highly mathematical patterns abstractions : a mirage he takes for the whole real picture , or for water , a mirage that cannot satisfy his own thirst ,obviously ,  let alone others'  .

To say that the alleged emergence of consciousness  or thought , is analogous to that of the  water's waves is not only a false analogy , a materialist existential symbolic sub-conscious one at that , simply because water and its waves are both material , simply because the emergent phenomena just occurs at the physical and biological material levels ,  but , also because the mirage created by those alleged emergent thought patterns that were allegedly caused by neurons , the former that does activate allegedly also the latter , those alleged emergent thought patterns are just like a mirage created in the materialists' brains or rather in their materialist believing minds , sub-consciously existentially  symbolically  ,  they take for real water , or  rather  for real water 's waves , leaving themselves and ourselves in the process , ...thirsty ,as a result , by confusing their materialist believing mind's mirage represented by their materialist belief assumption that thought patterns are emeregent properties of neurons , with water waves or with water , leaving us all at the mercy of the pursuit of their created mirage that would , per definition, never be able to satisfy ...our thirst or theirs ...



So, tell me now how you and the rest of those materialists do "deduce " from all the above you have been talking about , that thought patterns are created somehow by neuronal computation or "emergent " property then ?
Thought patterns as allegedly  high level causations ...caused by the brain ,via its neurons ...causation that does , per definition, explains nothing by itself .
Why not say correlation or interaction, instead of causation , why causation specifically then ? = right , just to be able to prove the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that "brain creates or causes consciousness " of course : how convenient .
How can those thought patterns be created by just neurons via their neuro-chemistry = via just physics and chemistry ? = the machine or computer analogy is , obviously , incorrect regarding life in general, let alone regarding the human brain and the soul ..................

Final note :

The hard  problem of consciousness , soul ....is just a matter of belief , either way , whether it is  a materialist or a non-materialist belief issue :  science has nothing to do with it :

Materialists though , since they pretend that their materialism is scientific (a joke ) , cannot but act and think behave like our old fellow Thomas Aquinas at the level of his scholastics at least when he tried to prove his belief in the existence of God to be true , by "proving it to be true " haha , simply put : (In fact , God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ) :
Materialists thus just try to prove their materialist belief to be "true " through science = a paradox = science is not about either proving or disproving any beliefs for that matter , materialists try to prove their materialist belief assumptions regarding human consciousness, human cognition , memory , life , nature ...or rather their whole materialist conception of nature to be "true " via science haha, via those computational emergence magical  performances  = a paradox = materialist magic in science = science can neither prove nor disprove any beliefs for that matter , once again .

Dualists can and should also not try to prove their dualistic belief to be "true " through science either = that would be unscientific , as that materialist attempt to try to prove its conception of nature to be "true " through science ...is = unscientific , despite its highly complicated fancy sophisticated elaborate computer -like , machine -like mathematical abstractions , the latter that can fool only ....idiots , materialists ,fools or ignorant people ...

Comprende , amigo .

 

 

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #652 on: 21/10/2013 18:42:36 »
Quote from: cheryl j
Here's one last joke though:
Ironically, the God particle still can't explain why the Catholic Church has mass.
Cute. From Concepts of Mass in Classical and Modern Physics by Max Jammer, page 7
Quote
Our modern word "mass" ..., as used in physics, thus undoubtedly derived from the Latin massa, meaning originally a lump of dough or paste. As in the modern languages of today, so already in Middle English the term signified a lump in a more general sense, a conglomeration or aggregation of bodies. Such was also the meaning that the word had in the Latin for the Church.



You're using just semantics or latin ones to prove your point ? wao .
What is matter then really ? Have quantum physics themselves not revolutionized our very conventional old outdated understanding of what mass or matter might be ?

Mass that's just a matter of gravity ...Have you ever been to the moon or to space ,to see how much "mass " you have left ? in comparison with yours on earth ?

Matter can just be some sort of energy , deep down in its ultimate core : "Matter is not made of matter " , as some scientist said .

Not to mention the ludicrous materialist statement of our dear chick here : the so-called "God particle " = how can physics and chemistry account for such processes such as consciousness, human cognition , the immaterial side of life , the immaterial side of reality in general, .....let alone ...God .
God ...

Materialism has been turning you , guys, into complete fools dummies soulless zombies, no wonder  .

« Last Edit: 21/10/2013 18:45:32 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #653 on: 21/10/2013 19:11:37 »


The whole is not the sum of its parts , silly :

This is yet another silly unscientific kind of mechanistic reductionism in science in relation to life or brain processes at least , in the sense that one can try to reverse -engineer the brain or life , in order to understand and explain how they might work : that mechanistic reductionist approach might and does work , sometimes , regarding machines , but not regarding living organisms that are , obviously, no machines ,as Sheldrake said in his "Science Set Free ..." book :

Living organisms that do inherently intrinsically possess self-organizing , self-replicating , self-sustaining ,self-maintaining ....flexible and adaptative creative qualities , no human- made machine ever can be able to match, not even remotely close thus , no matter how sophisticated or advanced it might ever be .




Strange as it might seem, materialists are not in disagreement with you on this point. A reductionist hypothesis does not imply a constructionist one. The ability to reduce everything to fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from fundamental laws and reconstruct the universe, or even a squirrel.  Why does it not work the same backwards or forwards? Your answer is actually not that nature is self organizing, your answer is "God does it."   A materialist would explain it differently, that the nonlinear mathematics of complex systems does not allow exact predictions of future states. A materialist does not see anything magical about the emergence of properties when you go from one level of organization to another, although you obviously do. I could give you dozens of examples of emergent properties, and dlorde could probably even give you better ones, but I doubt it would convince you that it is not a magic process. That doesn't prove consciousness is an emergent property, but it seems more likely to me, than "God does it", an explanation that also effectively ends any attempt at a deeper or more detailed understanding, at least scientifically.

You repeatedly mention things like "emotions" or "memories" as being unexplainable with materialism. I sometimes wonder if you have ever bothered to think about what an emotion or memory or thought is. Even within your own conceptual framework of the brain as receiver of immaterial consciousness, I suspect you would have difficulty sorting various mental processes into either the "biological/brain/receiver box" or into the "immaterial consciousness from God box". But with your tendency to oversimplify and define things rather vaguely, it probably does not seem necessary.

(Prior note :
Don't you see that physicists materialists scientists are the ones who pretend to be able to explain everything = nothing , just in terms of physics and chemistry , just in terms of atoms , molecules ....and their interactions , properties ....via a so-called "theory of everything = theory of nothing ? : Did you read Stephen Hawking 's " A brief history of time " in that regard , to mention just that one on the subject ? )

Why do you distort my words or keep on misunderstanding them, just to fit your purpose ?

Are you stupid , or do you just deliberately play silly games with me ?

All i am saying is that reality is both material and immaterial = that's my own belief assumption = unscientific , per definition, but not necessarily false , as materialism is ,  but materialism just assumes or rather believes  that reality is exclusively material = a materialist "fact " or rather materialist belief assumption that was / is and will never be proved to be "true " by science , never , ever, per definition   : science , per definition, can only appoach the material side of reality , the immaterial one is just a matter of beliefs that should be kept outside of science and outside of its jurisdiction  as well  .
But , materialism , per definition, reduces the universe to just a material one .
Worse : materialism in science is , obvioulsy and per definition, just a belief = unscientific , per definition, , materialism is just a secular  belief  in science , a materialist secular belief religion that should be kept outside of science and outside of its jurisdiction as well :

Can't you understand just that ?

Why do you think science itself originated from the very heart and spirit of Islam itself then ?

P.S.: materialists explain everyhting= nothing  in terms of physics and chemistry alone , including via all those  extensions of materialism in science and elsewhere at the macroscopic levels , such as the so-called emergence of those thought patterns and consciousness that are allegedly created by the evolved complexity of the brain via its neurons .....

I just wanna make you, folks , realise that materialism and science are not the same thing , obviously ...but , you refuse to see that obvious undeniable fact .
Your problem, not mine .

Religious believers  can and should try to explain and understand the universe via science , reason , logic ...while assuming that God is behind all that = science is no exclusive materialist "property " or monopoly = one can be a believer and a scientist at the same time ,many scientific great achievements were / are and will be as well put under the signature of many religious believers scientists  ,as a materialist is a believer and a scientist at the same time , but the difference between the 2 different believers  scientists  , the religious and the secular materialist ones, is that religious believers scientists do keep their religious beliefs as they should do outside of science and outside of science's jurisdiction as well , but materialists believers scientists  do not only do the exact opposite by involving their own materialist beliefs in science , but they also sell them to the people as science .

Who's to blame here for turning science into a belief = into magic = into the materialist false belief ? obviously ...

Unbelievable ...




« Last Edit: 21/10/2013 19:15:39 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #654 on: 21/10/2013 20:13:27 »
The hard problem of consciousness remains as unsolved as it was the case thousands of years ago, and will most probably remain unsolved for yet trillions of years to come as well , maybe , who knows  :
The hard problem of consciousness that can only be , obviously , approached via world views , conceptions of nature , or beliefs only ,  by  both  the secular and  the religious ones .

Beliefs or world views , conceptions of nature , that are and should be kept outside of science , and outside of science's jurisdiction as well .

But , materialists cannot let go of their desperate attempts to try to prove their materialist belief assumptions to be "true " , regarding the origins , emergence ,evolution and nature of consciousness ,regarding their materialist conception of nature as a whole ,   through no-less than science , paradoxically , materialist belief assumptions they do deliberately sell to people as ...science , ironically paradoxically enough .

In fact , human beliefs cannot be kept outside of all sciences , obviously : Proof ? : materialism in all sciences and elsewhere : and the false materialism will just be replaced by yet another false conception of nature in all sciences  and elsewhere as well = "The human will to believe is ...inexhaustible ...indeed .


What a predicament ...
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #655 on: 21/10/2013 22:34:58 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte
... tl;dr ...
Yes, but how do you feel about materialism in science?   ;)
« Last Edit: 21/10/2013 22:42:42 by dlorde »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #656 on: 22/10/2013 02:11:53 »


But , materialists cannot let go of their desperate attempts to try to prove their materialist belief assumptions to be "true " , regarding the origins , emergence ,evolution and nature of consciousness ,regarding their materialist conception of nature as a whole ,   through no-less than science , paradoxically , materialist belief assumptions they do deliberately sell to people as ...science , ironically paradoxically enough .


Well, one could apply your anti-materialist reasoning to almost every kind of change or transformation in science:
 Do not try to convince me that water, which is a liquid, can be transformed into ice, which is solid, through your magical materialist temperature change! No way, no how! You are obviously confusing materialism with science proper to think that sunlight is magically transformed via the strip tease of photosynthesis into the energy locked in bonds of glucose molecules, or that you can some how magically change this with mere chemical reactions inside cells in a way that allows you peddle a bicycle! The sun cannot peddle your bicycle! Can't you understand just that? Are you really that stupid? Unbelievable! You cannot possibly through your materialist reductionist magic explain how a tornado "emerges" from atoms of oxygen and nitrogen and carbon and hydrogen! And Mass that's just a matter of gravity. Have you ever been to the moon or to space ,to see how much "mass " you have left ? in comparison with yours on earth?

(I didn't even have to make up the last example)

« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 02:44:09 by cheryl j »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #657 on: 22/10/2013 03:51:36 »
To be a good scientist, you have to split your personality in two halves, one defending anti-materialism and one defending materialism. How much are they incompatible?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #658 on: 22/10/2013 14:07:22 »
Well, one could apply your anti-materialist reasoning to almost every kind of change or transformation in science:
 Do not try to convince me that water, which is a liquid, can be transformed into ice, which is solid, through your magical materialist temperature change! No way, no how! You are obviously confusing materialism with science proper to think that sunlight is magically transformed via the strip tease of photosynthesis into the energy locked in bonds of glucose molecules, or that you can some how magically change this with mere chemical reactions inside cells in a way that allows you peddle a bicycle! The sun cannot peddle your bicycle! Can't you understand just that? Are you really that stupid? Unbelievable! You cannot possibly through your materialist reductionist magic explain how a tornado "emerges" from atoms of oxygen and nitrogen and carbon and hydrogen! And Mass that's just a matter of gravity. Have you ever been to the moon or to space ,to see how much "mass " you have left ? in comparison with yours on earth?
Bravo Cheryl! eerily familiar, and every bit as informative as the real thing :)
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #659 on: 22/10/2013 17:13:31 »
I honestly cannot understand how one can attack materialism and reductionism, blithely dismiss things like emergent properties and offer absolutely nothing better in terms of explanation of phenomena.
You don't need such explanations if you have faith. Apparently it's beyond logic, reason, and science...

Come on : this is neither fair nor objective , let alone true , what you have been saying , you and Cheryl for that matter , regarding my own replies on the subject of emergent phenomena at least = i did state clearly to the both of you that i do not reject the emergence phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels ,on the contrary ,  i just reject that materialist magical "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness only+ i do reject that materialist mechanistic so-called computational mechanism regarding human thought or cognition .
Did i not say that to the both of you cristal-clearly earlier , when the both of you asked me about just that ?
I did clearly state that to you , dlorde , cristal -clearly  when you did distort my words beyond any recognition on the very same subject = you do the same distortion of my words again ...Why then ?
Do you happen to suffer from some sort of selective amnesia or what ?

Unbelievable ...

A mod warned me about "insulting " the members of this forum : I say to that mod :

Try to read how these people distort my words beyond any recognition repeatedly , despite my extensive and repeated explanations of what i was saying = I gotta be a superhuman not to insult you , guys , as a result ?
I am not a superman though = i am just a human , all too human being , with limited patience ...

« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 17:18:34 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #660 on: 22/10/2013 17:31:51 »


But , materialists cannot let go of their desperate attempts to try to prove their materialist belief assumptions to be "true " , regarding the origins , emergence ,evolution and nature of consciousness ,regarding their materialist conception of nature as a whole ,   through no-less than science , paradoxically , materialist belief assumptions they do deliberately sell to people as ...science , ironically paradoxically enough .


Well, one could apply your anti-materialist reasoning to almost every kind of change or transformation in science:
 Do not try to convince me that water, which is a liquid, can be transformed into ice, which is solid, through your magical materialist temperature change! No way, no how! You are obviously confusing materialism with science proper to think that sunlight is magically transformed via the strip tease of photosynthesis into the energy locked in bonds of glucose molecules, or that you can some how magically change this with mere chemical reactions inside cells in a way that allows you peddle a bicycle! The sun cannot peddle your bicycle! Can't you understand just that? Are you really that stupid? Unbelievable! You cannot possibly through your materialist reductionist magic explain how a tornado "emerges" from atoms of oxygen and nitrogen and carbon and hydrogen! And Mass that's just a matter of gravity. Have you ever been to the moon or to space ,to see how much "mass " you have left ? in comparison with yours on earth?

(I didn't even have to make up the last example)

God...

The purely exclusively biological physical material emergent properties are scientific facts , not materialist belief assumptions = can you see the difference ?

See my reply to dlorde here above , on the same subject :
I absolutely do not reject the emergent phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels= only fools idiots or ignorant folks might do just that  , i do just reject that materialist magical =  unscientific  "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness, that's all :
You asked me about just that , earlier , and i did give you this same answer .
I also do ,obviously , reject that materialist = unscientific computational mechanism regarding the origin or nature of human thought or cognition also , simply because that machine or computer analogy does not apply to living organisms , the latter that are unlike any man-made machne computer for that matter , living organisms that are capable of self-organisation, reproduction replication, self-maintenance , unique metabolism ...capable of creativity flexibility evolution ...

Once again, have you ever seen any man-made machine for that matter , that's capable of all the above listed properties and qualities of living organisms , have you ever seen any man-made machine that's capable of growing from   some of its smallest components cells genes , that's capapable of reproduction replication, self-replication, self-reproduction, creativity, flexibility , self-organisation, that's capable of adaptation evolution ...?

Amazing folks you are ,really ...
« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 17:37:10 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #661 on: 22/10/2013 18:46:26 »
You don't need such explanations if you have faith. Apparently it's beyond logic, reason, and science...

Come on : this is neither fair nor objective , let alone true , what you have been saying , you and Cheryl for that matter...
Wow, been trawling? those posts are 7 weeks old... but it still seems fair comment - you did actually say that:
human consciousness, our subjective inner lives ...do escape any reason, logic, science..

Quote
.. regarding my own replies on the subject of emergent phenomena at least = i did state clearly to the both of you that i do not reject the emergence phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels ,on the contrary ,  i just reject that materialist magical "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness only+ i do reject that materialist mechanistic so-called computational mechanism regarding human thought or cognition .
I think we both acknowledge your position. What we're after is the argument supporting it, the plausible explanation you might use to persuade us that consciousness cannot be emergent from the functioning of the material brain.

"It is obvious" isn't an argument; at present, it just looks like a mixture of incredulity and special pleading.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #662 on: 22/10/2013 18:56:15 »
You don't need such explanations if you have faith. Apparently it's beyond logic, reason, and science...

Come on : this is neither fair nor objective , let alone true , what you have been saying , you and Cheryl for that matter...
Wow, been trawling? those posts are 7 weeks old... but it still seems fair comment - you did actually say that:
human consciousness, our subjective inner lives ...do escape any reason, logic, science..

Quote
.. regarding my own replies on the subject of emergent phenomena at least = i did state clearly to the both of you that i do not reject the emergence phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels ,on the contrary ,  i just reject that materialist magical "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness only+ i do reject that materialist mechanistic so-called computational mechanism regarding human thought or cognition .
I think we both acknowledge your position. What we're after is the argument supporting it, the plausible explanation you might use to persuade us that consciousness cannot be emergent from the functioning of the material brain.

"It is obvious" isn't an argument; at present, it just looks like a mixture of incredulity and special pleading.



The hard problem of consciousness remains as unsolved as it was the case thousands of years ago, and will most probably remain unsolved for yet trillions of years to come as well , maybe , who knows  :
The hard problem of consciousness that can only be , obviously , approached via world views , conceptions of nature , or beliefs only ,  by  both  the secular and  the religious ones .

Beliefs or world views , conceptions of nature , that are and should be kept outside of science , and outside of science's jurisdiction as well .

But , materialists cannot let go of their desperate attempts to try to prove their materialist belief assumptions to be "true " , regarding the origins , emergence ,evolution and nature of consciousness ,regarding their materialist conception of nature as a whole ,   through no-less than science , paradoxically , materialist belief assumptions they do deliberately sell to people as ...science , ironically paradoxically enough .

In fact , human beliefs cannot be kept outside of all sciences , obviously : Proof ? : materialism in all sciences and elsewhere : and the false materialism will just be replaced by yet another false conception of nature in all sciences  and elsewhere as well = "The human will to believe is ...inexhaustible ...indeed .


What a predicament ...
« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 18:58:14 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #663 on: 22/10/2013 19:00:01 »
There's a weird recursiveness about consciousness, where brain states generate thoughts but those thoughts seem to effect the next brain state that generates the next thought.
That's quite reasonable if thoughts are the patterns of activation of neurons across the brain. Each pattern of activation will trigger the next (although the patterns are dynamic, so the transitions are continuous). The difficulty many people have is in grasping that thoughts are these patterns of neural activation flowing across/through the brain, they're not something separate that causes neural activity, and they're only 'caused by' neural activity in the loose sense that a wave is 'caused by' water; waves are a patterns of water movement, and thoughts are patterns of neural activity. 

Douglas Hofstadter discusses recursion and consciousness at length in his book 'I am a Strange Loop', where one of his themes is the use of feedback to generate complexity (e.g. video feedback, where the camera points at the screen showing its own output).

I see the emergence and interaction of patterns of neural activation in the brain as analogous to the emergence of interacting patterns in Conway's Game of Life, where the individual units are static, with binary states, but the emergent patterns of their composite activities have emergent structure and interaction (oscillators, spaceships, etc). As if to emphasize the potential of such emergent complexity, these GOL patterns can themselves be used to emulate the GOL itself and as a logic language to create construct universal Turing machines (programmable computers) and computer/constructors that can be programmed to replicate themselves.

If a system with such simple rules and limited degrees of freedom as GOL can generate multiple levels of emergent complexity, to the extent that it can generate replicators and emulate anything computable, it seems less surprising that a system with many more degrees of freedom and more complex rules can, given a suitable environment and couple of billion years of selection pressures,  evolve structures like mammalian brains.

You know :
I did download the kindle version of "I am a strange loop " , yesterday : I have been enjoying a short work-holiday ,so to speak, so, i have read some parts of that disappointing book  that seemed , at first sight , so promissing , and so worthy of all the praise it did get  :

That book sounds like an authentic human and humanistic true confession, humanism extended to other species , confession  whose authenticity was its major 'argument " (You gotta be authentic to sell your products , yourself and your views and ideas : authenticity in art is a major must  also  , if you wanna be a successful artist ....The author of that book in question was clever enough to use all those powerful symbols of authenticity , true confession ...humanistic side .....)
The author's sophisticated mathematical maze and high abstractions regarding the patterns of thought that are allegedly created by the neuronal computation and emergence qualities properties ,are nothing new in fact :

I have read so many similar materialist magical non-sense on the subject of thought , consciousness ,....that i cannot but see how materialists try to sell their similar materialist belief asumptions in science  to the people  , in a mathematical high abstractions elaborate and sophisticated make-believe scientific theories package ,  that compare  or rather make those materialist machine and computers analogies regarding  the human mind and brain , life in general .....
So, it all comes down to those materialist magical computational and "emergent " tricks performances regarding human thought , consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , life in general ...as if humans and life in general are just some sort of machines ,despite the fact that that machine metaphor regarding life is so outdated and false , obviously = it all comes down to  physics , chemistry and neurochemistry , despite your outraged denials:  emergent thought patterns are just macroscopic  emergent computational higher levels of causation , while their core atomic molecular physical chemical roots can be discarded at that macroscopic level ,simply because humans are mostly concerned only by their macroscopic side of everyda's life  .
Living organisms do possess self -organizing , self -replicating or self-reproducing , self -maintaining , creativity , flexibility , adaptation, unique metabolism  ...qualities.
Have you ever seen any human -made machine for that matter that's capable of all that , capable of growing from its smallest fundamental parts or cells genes , capable of creativity flexibility , self-organization , capable of reproduction replication, capable of adaptation evolution ....?

In short or in other words :

As the author of "I am a strange loop " stated in his final chapter :
regarding the hard problem of mind vs body , or consciousness or soul:  we either believe that consciousness or the soul are just products of the laws of physics at their ultimate core , or we believe that the soul is outside of the laws of physics = dualism .

As a materialist , he cannot believe in that magical , as he put it at least , dualism that does raise many unanswerable questions than give answers (Who said anyway that dualism can give all answers : we don't know what the soul is , let alone how the mind -body interaction takes place ....among many other things we do not know on the subject ) ,so, he cannot but keep on going on the materialist path , regardless of where it might lead him to , despite all the inherent intrinsic incoherence inconsistency of materialism ,i say : like how the unconscious matter (IF it happens to be unconscious at least ) can give rise to the ,obviously , immaterial non-physical consciousness , human cognition ,to the immaterial side of  life , to the immaterial side of human language ...
The author just avoids that inherent intrinsic materialist paradox ,regarding the obvious undeniable impossibility that physics and chemistry cannot , per definition and nature ,  give rise to non-physical and non-material processes , he just avoids that , by taking refuge in a higher level of alleged causation : emeregent computational thought patterns that are allegedly caused by the brain via its complex neurons' interactions   , an alleged causation that neither he nor any other materialist cares to prove to be true : they just take us with them into that highly complicated mathematical and other abstract forest maze  to the point where we would confuse the tree with the forest  , the latter metaphor he used himself , ironically enough , when he said , and rightly so, that reducing man ,life or the brain to just atomic molecular reductionist processes , instead of studying the whole thing , not just via its parts , would make us miss the whole picture .
Well, he , obviously , misses and cannot see the whole picture either , either via or thanks to his highly mathematical patterns abstractions : a mirage he takes for the whole real picture , or for water , a mirage that cannot satisfy his own thirst ,obviously ,  let alone others'  .

To say that the alleged emergence of consciousness  or thought , is analogous to that of the  water's waves is not only a false analogy , a materialist existential symbolic sub-conscious one at that , simply because water and its waves are both material , simply because the emergent phenomena just occurs at the physical and biological material levels ,  but , also because the mirage created by those alleged emergent thought patterns that were allegedly caused by neurons , the former that does activate allegedly also the latter , those alleged emergent thought patterns are just like a mirage created in the materialists' brains or rather in their materialist believing minds , sub-consciously existentially  symbolically  ,  they take for real water , or  rather  for real water 's waves , leaving themselves and ourselves in the process , ...thirsty ,as a result , by confusing their materialist believing mind's mirage represented by their materialist belief assumption that thought patterns are emeregent properties of neurons , with water waves or with water , leaving us all at the mercy of the pursuit of their created mirage that would , per definition, never be able to satisfy ...our thirst or theirs ...



So, tell me now how you and the rest of those materialists do "deduce " from all the above you have been talking about , that thought patterns are created somehow by neuronal computation or "emergent " property then ?
Thought patterns as allegedly  high level causations ...caused by the brain ,via its neurons ...causation that does , per definition, explains nothing by itself .
Why not say correlation or interaction, instead of causation , why causation specifically then ? = right , just to be able to prove the materialist belief assumption to be "true " that "brain creates or causes consciousness " of course : how convenient .
How can those thought patterns be created by just neurons via their neuro-chemistry = via just physics and chemistry ? = the machine or computer analogy is , obviously , incorrect regarding life in general, let alone regarding the human brain and the soul ..................

Final note :

The hard  problem of consciousness , soul ....is just a matter of belief , either way , whether it is  a materialist or a non-materialist belief issue :  science has nothing to do with it :

Materialists though , since they pretend that their materialism is scientific (a joke ) , cannot but act and think behave like our old fellow Thomas Aquinas at the level of his scholastics at least when he tried to prove his belief in the existence of God to be true , by "proving it to be true " haha , simply put : (In fact , God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ) :
Materialists thus just try to prove their materialist belief to be "true " through science = a paradox = science is not about either proving or disproving any beliefs for that matter , materialists try to prove their materialist belief assumptions regarding human consciousness, human cognition , memory , life , nature ...or rather their whole materialist conception of nature to be "true " via science haha, via those computational emergence magical  performances  = a paradox = materialist magic in science = science can neither prove nor disprove any beliefs for that matter , once again .

Dualists can and should also not try to prove their dualistic belief to be "true " through science either = that would be unscientific , as that materialist attempt to try to prove its conception of nature to be "true " through science ...is = unscientific , despite its highly complicated fancy sophisticated elaborate computer -like , machine -like mathematical abstractions , the latter that can fool only ....idiots , materialists ,fools or ignorant people ...

Comprende , amigo .

 

 

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #664 on: 22/10/2013 19:06:08 »

Quote
The hard problem of consciousness remains...
...that it is undefined. 
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #665 on: 22/10/2013 19:17:18 »

Quote
The hard problem of consciousness remains...
...that it is undefined.

What is  then ?
Stop palying silly games , please , be serious .
Every sane intelligent person knows that consciousness is a hard problem in science and elsewhere .Don't be silly .
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #666 on: 22/10/2013 19:47:19 »
Dear folks :
Just watch and listen to the following on the subject   of science and materialism in science and elsewhere , materialism in  science  the majority of scientists today do confuse with science :


SCIENCE SET FREE - Rupert Sheldrake





Rupert Sheldrake - The Science Delusion | London Real


 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #667 on: 23/10/2013 01:13:32 »


Come on : this is neither fair nor objective , let alone true , what you have been saying , you and Cheryl for that matter , regarding my own replies on the subject of emergent phenomena at least = i did state clearly to the both of you that i do not reject the emergence phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels ,on the contrary ,  i just reject that materialist magical "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness only+ i do reject that materialist mechanistic so-called computational mechanism regarding human thought or cognition .



And it doesn't seem at all odd to you that human consciousness is this one, special exception? You accept very complex changes and transformations in any area of biology or science, without the hand of God helping it along, except human consciousness? And at what point did God intervene in our evolutionary history?
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #668 on: 23/10/2013 03:18:04 »
Dear folks :
Just watch and listen to the following on the subject   of science and materialism in science and elsewhere , materialism in  science  the majority of scientists today do confuse with science :


SCIENCE SET FREE - Rupert Sheldrake





Rupert Sheldrake - The Science Delusion | London Real



I have listened to Sheldrake. Have you bothered to investigate what neuroscience says about emotion or intuition? That they are not just the ephemeral subjective feelings you assume? That they actually are an important brain processes in reasoning, interpreting sensory perceptions, and motivation to act or not? Or do you just assume "I don't need to learn anything more about emotion or intuition because I've already 'felt' it for myself. Science can't tell me anything more. My subjective impression of them is enough" ?
« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 03:27:28 by cheryl j »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #669 on: 23/10/2013 09:04:25 »

Quote
The hard problem of consciousness remains...
...that it is undefined.

What is  then ?
Stop palying silly games , please , be serious .
Every sane intelligent person knows that consciousness is a hard problem in science and elsewhere .Don't be silly .


On the contrary, I am sane - I have doctors' certificates to prove it. But I have never encountered anyone who would complete the sentence "consciousness is....." or "consciousness is that which....." in a meaningful way. You are just another of many, so far.

Why not redeem yourself (and rise in my estimation) with a few words instead of evading the issue?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #670 on: 23/10/2013 17:21:49 »
Dear folks :
Just watch and listen to the following on the subject   of science and materialism in science and elsewhere , materialism in  science  the majority of scientists today do confuse with science :


SCIENCE SET FREE - Rupert Sheldrake





Rupert Sheldrake - The Science Delusion | London Real



I have listened to Sheldrake. Have you bothered to investigate what neuroscience says about emotion or intuition? That they are not just the ephemeral subjective feelings you assume? That they actually are an important brain processes in reasoning, interpreting sensory perceptions, and motivation to act or not? Or do you just assume "I don't need to learn anything more about emotion or intuition because I've already 'felt' it for myself. Science can't tell me anything more. My subjective impression of them is enough" ?

I might happen to know more than you could ever do , regarding neuro-science ...
So, just stop these sort of silly assumptions of yours then .

I did post Sheldrake's videos again, just in relation to that false materialism in science , that's all .
Nobody is denying the scientific approach of emotions and intuition  at their physical biological material levels  , it's just that science cannot , per definition , tell us what the natures of feelings emotions intuitions are :  what feeling emotion exactly are  , what pain is .....
Feelings emotions intuitions , love ...that cannot be accounted  for fully via just physics and chemistry ....
« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 17:24:17 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #671 on: 23/10/2013 17:29:41 »


Come on : this is neither fair nor objective , let alone true , what you have been saying , you and Cheryl for that matter , regarding my own replies on the subject of emergent phenomena at least = i did state clearly to the both of you that i do not reject the emergence phenomena at the exclusively biological physical material levels ,on the contrary ,  i just reject that materialist magical "emergence " trick performance regarding the origin or nature of consciousness only+ i do reject that materialist mechanistic so-called computational mechanism regarding human thought or cognition .



And it doesn't seem at all odd to you that human consciousness is this one, special exception? You accept very complex changes and transformations in any area of biology or science, without the hand of God helping it along, except human consciousness? And at what point did God intervene in our evolutionary history?

Nature or the universe are not just a matter of material processes= nature or the universe are not just exclusively material  ,as materialism wanna make you believe  they are = an unscientific, per definition,  materialist belief assumption or conception of nature  ,a fasle one at that  sis , once again :

And science is only concerned with  material physical biological processes  ...no less , no more .

If you wanna keep on seeing everything in the universe and nature as just material biological physical processes ,including consciousness, feelings , emotions, memory ...That's your problem, not mine .

Science cannot , per definition, tell us what feelings emotions pain exactly are , or how they can be connected to their biological side , science cannot account for such processes via just physics and chemistry , let alone regarding consciousness :
The metarialist machine metaphor regarding life that 's dominating in science is false , obviously .

Living organisms are no machines or computers ,otherwise we can make 'sentient alive " machines easily = cannot be done , obviously .


A very typical case of the mainstream materialist belief   at work  in science : The "Brain Creates Consciousness " haha :  on Scientific American :  Aunt Millie's  Mind by Michael Schermer :

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2012/07/aunt-millies-mind/

It's like saying that Obama, for example , or CNN... appearing on tv were / are created by the tv set where they happen to  appear ,or that they do live inside the tv ,so, when the tv is damaged , or just some specific parts of it at least , which results in making the tv stop 'displaying " Obama,CNN, .... for example, or any other specific images for that matter , then , that means that the tv used to create those tv images haha , when it used to function ....= the magical materialist  belief assumption "emergent property " trick regarding the origins or nature of consciousness haha = the brain creates consciousness = consciousness is just an emergent property from the evolved complexity of the brain = consciousness is just physics and chemistry or neuro-chemistry = unbelievable  unscientific bullshit , in science  haha .





« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 17:42:52 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #672 on: 23/10/2013 17:34:07 »
Editing :

A relatively short farewell note :


Dear fellow human beings  :

(I do not see you , dear folks, as being some sort of machines ,computers , as evolved animals , or as just physics and chemistry , materialism has been trying so desperately to reduce you to ,for obvious materialist ideological purposes ,  no way : human beings are way too unique to be reduced to just physics and chemistry , no way , obviously and undeniably .).

I think i will just follow that wise intelligent decision made by David Cooper , indeed , i will no longer write any long posts for this thread : it is useless to try to change people's irrational stubborn beliefs.....
Editing :
I will have to leave this forum altogether  in fact ,and definitively at that  , i think : that would be the wisest and most intelligent thing to do , i guess , since people here cannot but confuse materialism with science ,obviously, and since i do have much better things to do as well , than continue hanging out here for nothing : it would be like a cry in the desert ,for nobody to hear ,a total waste ,  since you turned out to be ,folks , totally deaf regarding obvious and indeniable facts in relation to that obviously and undeniably false and unscientific materialism in all sciences ,and elsewhere as well  .
I will no longer  waste my time here any longer ,for nothing , as it has been  , obviously , the case   all along , from day 1 onward ,unfortunately enough .
I came here to try to make you realise , folks, that materialism is not science , obviously , and then after establishing that obvious undeniable fact , we could talk ...pure science afterwards : but , i see , that it is mission impossible to try to talk you out of that false and unscientific materialism, that has been dominating in and hijacking science since the 19 th century at least , obviously :
It is indeed useless to try to change people's irrational stubborn beliefs , the more when those beliefs, the materialist ones at that ,  are sold to the people in a scientific package , as science, ironically and paradoxically enough  .

It's been really very interesting ,educational, entertaining, frustrating irritating disappointing ...also haha  ....you have no idea ...to talk to you, guys :

("The loss is worth the gain " , you have no idea , as the writer of " I am a strange loop"  said ,in his final chapter of that disappointing book of his , but in a totally different context than this one of mine though .)

My sincere and genuine apologies for having to be rude to some people here .
I am just human, too human ...a person ,so.

Nice to have been knowing you somehow ,folks,  and to have been  talking  to you as well , anyway thus .

Thanks a lot for everything , appreciate indeed .

Best wishes .

Enjoy life ,dear folks,  have fun : life is too short to be wasted ....

Bye

Abdel
« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 18:24:41 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #673 on: 23/10/2013 18:19:21 »
Quote
I came here to try to make you realise , folks, that materialism is not science

I rather think that most of us knew that already.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #674 on: 23/10/2013 20:43:55 »
Quote
I came here to try to make you realise , folks, that materialism is not science

I rather think that most of us knew that already.

No, you did not ...abvioulsy , and you still do not ...either ...

Ciao, amigo.
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #674 on: 23/10/2013 20:43:55 »

 

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