The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 307476 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #750 on: 06/11/2013 18:57:56 »

I used to make a mistake when i used to say that science can deal only with the material (I see i was also a relative victim of materialism in science thus ) , science can rather deal with all it can observe, test , study ...empirically + not everything can be explained just via the laws of physics , not everything is just a matter of cause and effect thus , as mechanistic materialism  assumes (Major examples ? : science cannot handle the nature or origins of consciousness,of  human intellect ,of  feelings ,of  emotions , of memory ....science cannot handle the nature and origin of human conscience , science cannot explain life as a whole just via physics and chemistry , let alone life's origins , evolution and emergence ...fully) .



 
Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism  = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have  "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....
While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically...
....Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism  = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have  "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....
While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically .


So science is responsible for including the immaterial in its conceptual framework of why things happen or how things happen,  but it can't criticize ideas about the immaterial or falsify the immaterial in any way? Are you familiar with the phrase "writing a blank check"?
[/quote]

Try to read carefully what i try to say : i do my best to clarify my statements : do yours in relation to yours as well, otherwise , this discussion would become absurd = an understatement thus .

I said , science cannot be confined to just the material side of reality it has been taking as the whole real thing, thanks to materialism thus  .
So, science must therefore try to deal with the parts of reality it can deal with empirically , including some   parts of the immaterial side of reality indirectly , such as the the telepathy claims of some people , such as the psychic claims of some  people , such as dealing empirically with the natures and origins of consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , human intellect .....indirectly and not as physical biological material processes ...they are not ,obviously.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #751 on: 06/11/2013 19:11:14 »

We are not talking here about God .

Well, just for discussion's sake , the following then :

God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ; thousands of years of ancient philosophy , scholastics , modern philosophy ...should have convinced you already of that fact : trying to prove or disprove the existence of God was just a stupid and silly ancient Greek cultural habit that was taken over by christian scholastics , and by modern philosophy ,later on ...

No, we weren't talking about God, but you are the one who changed your mind and now claim that science is somehow responsible for including the immaterial as a possible cause of things or events, even though science per your definition of it cannot evaluate, prove or disprove, the immaterial. That is no different from holding an individual responsible for lack of information that he has no access to and is not allowed to question. It's another contradiction.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #752 on: 06/11/2013 19:29:02 »


Try to read carefully what i try to say : i do my best to clarify my statements : do yours in relation to yours as well, otherwise , this discussion would become absurd = an understatement thus .

I said , science cannot be confined to just the material side of reality it has been taking as the whole real thing, thanks to materialism thus  .
So, science must therefore try to deal with the parts of reality it can deal with empirically , including some   parts of the immaterial side of reality indirectly , such as the the telepathy claims of some people , such as the psychic claims of some  people , such as dealing empirically with the natures and origins of consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , human intellect .....indirectly and not as physical biological material processes ...they are not ,obviously.

When science has evaluated psychic phenomena and not delivered the results you want, you simply respond that it cannot adequately refute the immaterial, is not qualified to do so. You have the habit of deciding which "parts of reality it can deal with empirically" afterwards, depending on whether you agree with the conclusions.
« Last Edit: 06/11/2013 19:37:43 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #753 on: 06/11/2013 20:35:36 »
... you just resort to attacking non-materialist world views such as religions..
You have so little in response you have to make things up?  Or can you quote me 'attacking' non-materialist world views such as religions?

Quote
You just resort to saying : my materialist belief is better than yours = what kindda silly childish 'reasoning " is this then ? Amazing .
Confabulation. Care to quote me saying any such thing?
« Last Edit: 06/11/2013 20:41:44 by dlorde »
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #754 on: 06/11/2013 20:41:04 »
... science must therefore try to deal with the parts of reality it can deal with empirically , including some   parts of the immaterial side of reality indirectly , such as the the telepathy claims of some people , such as the psychic claims of some  people , such as dealing empirically with the natures and origins of consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , human intellect .....indirectly and not as physical biological material processes ...they are not ,obviously.
Which is exactly what science has been, and is, doing. Telepathy and psychic claims have come up a blank, the rest is under ongoing investigation. So far, no trace of influence from 'the immaterial side of reality' has been found.

What should science be doing differently?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #755 on: 06/11/2013 21:18:00 »
dlorde , Cheryl :

Time up, sorry :

Try to read carefully what i say , once again :

I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...

So, i talk about what science actually is  and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #756 on: 06/11/2013 21:52:31 »
... I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...

So, i talk about what science actually is  and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .
If science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system", then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #757 on: 07/11/2013 00:00:15 »
dlorde , Cheryl :

Time up, sorry :

Try to read carefully what i say , once again :

I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...

So, i talk about what science actually is  and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .
That's probably the lamest dodge I've seen so far.

I don't see why all of science must be liberated from materialism first, in order for you to even describe what a liberated scientist might then be free to do, or do differently. After all, it only takes one scientist with one really important discovery to change history. That one scientist doesn't have to get everybody's permission first to think differently. The idea that time wasn't constant must have been radical in 1905 and didn't require a consensus from all of science or society.

 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #758 on: 07/11/2013 16:56:16 »
... I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn't
True - although some ideas are so patently absurd they need convincing evidence of their reality to be credible, e.g. Russell's Teapot, Sagan's invisible dragon, the Tooth Fairy, God, etc. As the man said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

(Once again, history of mankind's thought had proved the obvious simple and undeniable fact that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ,so, let's just leave it at that then , and that's not our subject either )

Well, materialism is so absurd , so paradoxical, so counter-intuitive, or implausible as Nagel said , so ridiculous , so silly , so childish a "scientific world view " that it is extremely puzzling that materialism has been taken seriously at all , let alone in science : extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence indeed , ironically enough .

Now that you cannot deliver any evidence for the "validity or truth " concerning the materialist mainstream "scientific world view ", that's obviously false , you just resort to attacking non-materialist world views such as religions, we are not talking here about the latter , we are just talking about materialism in science that's obviously false , and nobody said that religions are 'scientific " , as materialism pretends to be : that's the core issue here , if materialism has not been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view  for so long now  , i would have never bothered raising the irrelevant silly issue of materialism = materialism that assumes that reality as a whole is just material physical  , well  , ironically enough , Nagel said on the subject  of materialism "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"= where is that extraordinary materialist evidence then ? where is that extraprdinary evidence regarding the extraordianry claims of materialism that reality is just material physical then ?

All that Russell's tea pot and the rest of your "arguments " against religion are not only incorrect and false irrelevant in relation to some religions at least  they cannot cover as such  , but they  also miss the point that there are false and true beliefs ,relatively speaking : the belief in Sint Claus is obviously false , my own belief in my mother is obviously true to me at least .......to mention just that , no need to scale it up all the way to religions .

Quote
Quote
the religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements..
Someone said 'atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby'. As an atheist myself, I'm not aware of having any religious-type organized beliefs, dogmas, rituals or activities. Despite a religious upbringing, I don't believe in god because it seems an absurd, contradictory, ill-defined idea, there's no plausible evidence for it, and a vast amount of circumstantial evidence that it's a product of human imagination. YMMV. If some plausible evidence appears, I'll consider it.

Atheism is obviously a belief , a religion, a conception of nature , a naturalist one at that , a dogmatic orthodox one at that , even in the face of counter-evidence : major example ? materialism in all sciences and elsewhere .

Deliver your  extraordinary evidence regarding the extraordinary claims of the naturalist materialist reductionist determinist conception of nature then ,that gets sold to the people as the 'scientific world view " , deal ?

Besides, you cannot prove the falsehood or truthfulness of a certain belief or religion just via another belief assumption , the materialist one here ,come on : how convenient =   I say your materialist belief is false , and i did provide you with extensive supporting material and other on the subject , what do you do ? You just resort to saying : my materialist belief is better than yours = what kindda silly childish 'reasoning " is this then ? Amazing .
Just address the issue of the false materialist "scientific world view " at hand : religions are not the ones that pretend to be "the scientific world views " , deal ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #759 on: 07/11/2013 16:59:21 »
Mod :

Please do have the decency and intelligence to just stop removing or editing some of my posts here on this thread and elsewhere as well i spent so much time on .
You could just remove Nagel's quotes form them, instead of removing the whole thing .
What's wrong with you anyway ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #760 on: 07/11/2013 17:05:10 »
dlorde , Cheryl :

Time up, sorry :

Try to read carefully what i say , once again :

I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...

So, i talk about what science actually is  and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .
That's probably the lamest dodge I've seen so far.

I don't see why all of science must be liberated from materialism first, in order for you to even describe what a liberated scientist might then be free to do, or do differently. After all, it only takes one scientist with one really important discovery to change history. That one scientist doesn't have to get everybody's permission first to think differently. The idea that time wasn't constant must have been radical in 1905 and didn't require a consensus from all of science or society.
[/quote]

Science must be liberated from mainstream materialism, for the simple reason that the latter is false , materialism that's been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view " .
IT is obvously not enough to have some scientists individuals who do challenge that 'scientific world view ": there is a lot more needed to do just that than just some scientists who have been "singing outside of the mainsteram materialist false orchestra" .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #761 on: 07/11/2013 17:09:11 »
... you just resort to attacking non-materialist world views such as religions..
You have so little in response you have to make things up?  Or can you quote me 'attacking' non-materialist world views such as religions?

Quote
You just resort to saying : my materialist belief is better than yours = what kindda silly childish 'reasoning " is this then ? Amazing .
Confabulation. Care to quote me saying any such thing?
[/quote]

Try to reread what you said earlier then, i did repost for you   here above .
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #762 on: 07/11/2013 18:36:38 »
Try to reread what you said earlier then, i did repost for you   here above .
You won't find quotes of me attacking non-materialist world views such as religions, or saying that my materialist belief is better than yours, because they're not there.

You've clearly interpreted something I've posted as an attack on non-materialist world views, and as suggesting that I think my 'materialist belief' is better than yours, so perhaps you could quote the relevant post(s) so I can explain what I said in words of one syllable.
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #763 on: 07/11/2013 18:40:59 »
Science must be liberated from mainstream materialism, for the simple reason that the latter is false , materialism that's been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view " .
IT is obvously not enough to have some scientists individuals who do challenge that 'scientific world view ": there is a lot more needed to do just that than just some scientists who have been "singing outside of the mainsteram materialist false orchestra" .
So are you going to explain what should science be doing differently? how will it be different when 'liberated from materialism'?
 

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #764 on: 07/11/2013 18:59:29 »
God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ; thousands of years of ancient philosophy , scholastics , modern philosophy ...should have convinced you already of that fact : trying to prove or disprove the existence of God was just a stupid and silly ancient Greek cultural habit that was taken over by christian scholastics , and by modern philosophy ,later on ...

God's existence has been disproved. The fact that so many people lack the wit to recognise that fact that he is logically impossible does not negate the fact that he has been disproved, and that he has been disproved by more than one method. These proofs do depend of course on reason being correct - they are rational proofs. God only remains a possibility if you approach it from an irrational standpoint. What is completely wrong though is to claim that God cannot be disproved within the bounds of rationality, because he has been.

Here's another way of proving that he doesn't exist. God did not create the powers by which he creates things, so he is not the creator of all things. Again this means that he fails to qualify as God.

To maintain the belief that God is possible you have to match it with a belief that reason may not be worth anything, at which point you're left floundering in a place where any argument you make is of no value at all. It is a position for people who have given up trying to understand.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #765 on: 07/11/2013 19:14:58 »
Try to reread what you said earlier then, i did repost for you   here above .
You won't find quotes of me attacking non-materialist world views such as religions, or saying that my materialist belief is better than yours, because they're not there.

You've clearly interpreted something I've posted as an attack on non-materialist world views, and as suggesting that I think my 'materialist belief' is better than yours, so perhaps you could quote the relevant post(s) so I can explain what I said in words of one syllable.
[/quote]

You did not say that explicitly , i just rephrased or reformulated your words on the subject , i did not misinterpret them : reread what you said then .
It's ok to attack religions , aliens , God even , if you want to or can do just that , that's not the point : and that's not the subject of our discussion either .
The point is : i asked you to deliver  some  "extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the materialist version of reality, the latter that's been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view  " : but , instead of doing just that , you changed the subject by talking about God and religions in ways i did try to refute .........while religions and God are not our subject of discussion here .
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 19:17:20 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #766 on: 07/11/2013 19:30:58 »
God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ; thousands of years of ancient philosophy , scholastics , modern philosophy ...should have convinced you already of that fact : trying to prove or disprove the existence of God was just a stupid and silly ancient Greek cultural habit that was taken over by christian scholastics , and by modern philosophy ,later on ...

God's existence has been disproved. The fact that so many people lack the wit to recognise that fact that he is logically impossible does not negate the fact that he has been disproved, and that he has been disproved by more than one method. These proofs do depend of course on reason being correct - they are rational proofs. God only remains a possibility if you approach it from an irrational standpoint. What is completely wrong though is to claim that God cannot be disproved within the bounds of rationality, because he has been.

Here's another way of proving that he doesn't exist. God did not create the powers by which he creates things, so he is not the creator of all things. Again this means that he fails to qualify as God.

To maintain the belief that God is possible you have to match it with a belief that reason may not be worth anything, at which point you're left floundering in a place where any argument you make is of no value at all. It is a position for people who have given up trying to understand.
[/quote
]

haha
Depends largely of which world view do you hold or believe in : has nothing to do with reason, science , logic....what you have been saying at least .
Even though God is not our present discussion, the following :
"God's existence has been disproved ? " by whom , by what when how where ?
Congratulations : you are such an unique genius that you have just solved this unsolved mystery even thousands of years of ancient philosophy , cholastics , modern philosophy , could not solve , obviously = God's existence can , obviously , neither be proved nor disproved : trying to either prove or disprove the existence of God was , once again , just an ancient Greek silly stupid cultural habit sport that was taken over by scholastics , and by modern philosophy , later on, in vain .
Even the modern analytical philosophy had already abandoned that 'search " ,for obvious reasons .

Well, when one would consider the current mainstream materialist false conception of nature to be the 'scientific world view ", one can therefore only logically and 'empirically " haha conclude that God does ...not exist, as a result  .
But , reality as a whole , once again , is not just material or physical = materialism in science is false = the materialist "scientific world view " is false = God is obviously and per -definition outside of both science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well .
Sweet dreams then  in your materialist mechanistic wonderland , Alice .


In short :

Just cut the crap  then , and answer my questions first , instead of sending the ball back to me over and over again , instead of telling me silly bed stories for kids  , then and only then , i will answer yours :
I have been asking this same core question explicitly or implicitly in one form or another for so long now , in vain : nobody , including yourself , can give an answer to : cannot be answered , simply because the materialist 'scientific world view ", or rather the materialist conception of nature is , obviously ...false :

Why do you think that reality as a whole is just material or physical then ,once again ? Why do you take it for granted as the "scientific world view " : when did science ever prove that materialist "fact ", or rather that materialist core belief assumption to be "true" that reality as a whole is just material or physical ? when ? = never , ever , obviously .
Just try to deliver your own materialist "extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the materialist version of reality as a whole , the materialist version of reality that's been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view " , an alleged 'scientific world view " that is,obviously  ..false .
Deal ?
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 19:58:24 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #767 on: 07/11/2013 19:46:48 »
You've clearly interpreted something I've posted as an attack on non-materialist world views, and as suggesting that I think my 'materialist belief' is better than yours, so perhaps you could quote the relevant post(s) so I can explain what I said in words of one syllable.
You did not say that explicitly , i just rephrased or reformulated your words on the subject , i did not misinterpret them : reread what you said then .
I'm well aware of what I said; I'm asking you to link to the post where you think I said what you claim.

Quote
It's ok to attack religions , aliens , God even , if you want to or can do just that , that's not the point : and that's not the subject of our discussion either .
I'm not interested in attacking anything.

Quote
The point is : i asked you to deliver  some  "extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the materialist version of reality, the latter that's been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view  " : but , instead of doing just that , you changed the subject by talking about God and religions in ways i did try to refute .........while religions and God are not our subject of discussion here .
As I've already said, the only evidence we have is of the material. If there was evidence of the immaterial, I'd consider it. You say you don't know how the immaterial and the material could interact, but you seem convinced that they can.

I'll ask you again, what has convinced you that there is an immaterial realm that can affect the material?
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 19:49:40 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #768 on: 07/11/2013 19:53:45 »
You've clearly interpreted something I've posted as an attack on non-materialist world views, and as suggesting that I think my 'materialist belief' is better than yours, so perhaps you could quote the relevant post(s) so I can explain what I said in words of one syllable.
You did not say that explicitly , i just rephrased or reformulated your words on the subject , i did not misinterpret them : reread what you said then .
I'm well aware of what I said; I'm asking you to link to the post where you think I said what you claim.

Quote
It's ok to attack religions , aliens , God even , if you want to or can do just that , that's not the point : and that's not the subject of our discussion either .
I'm not interested in attacking anything.

Quote
The point is : i asked you to deliver  some  "extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the materialist version of reality, the latter that's been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view  " : but , instead of doing just that , you changed the subject by talking about God and religions in ways i did try to refute .........while religions and God are not our subject of discussion here .
As I've already said, the only evidence we have is of the material. If there was evidence of the immaterial, I'd consider it. You say you don't know how the immaterial and the material could interact, but you seem convinced that they can.

I'll ask you again, what has convinced you that there is an immaterial realm that can affect the material?
[/quote]


You are a lousy reader , even in relation to your own posts , amazing : nevermind .
Just answer the following then : please , thanks , appreciate indeed :

... whatever quantum physics or the maths of chaos would come up regarding reality must be taken as an incomplete view of reality or rather as a distortion of reality  , simply because science has been assuming that reality is exclusively material or physical, thanks to materialism .

Reality as a whole thus is not deterministic , let alone predictable as a whole .
Supposing, for the sake of argument, there is an 'immaterial realm', what makes you so sure it's not deterministic?

Quote
To try to explain 'everyhting " just via physics and chemistry , just via the laws of physics .............is a distorted view of reality , simply because reality as a whole is not just physical or material, the latter that's obviously not "everything "  .
It may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to me. So please enlighten me by explaining why you think it's the case.

Imagine we're lying on the beach, looking up at the clouds, and you point to a cloud and say, "Look! that one is like an elephant bathing".
I look where you're pointing and say, "I don't see it, please explain..."
You say, "It's obvious!"
I say, "I still don't see it - how is it like an elephant?" 
You explain, "The trunk is at the bottom right, but folded back to spray over its back; you can see the tail sticking up on the left there, about half way up, and the ears are flapping at the top, near that con trail..."
I say, "Oh yes... I see what you mean; although it looks more like a squirrel to me - the bit you said was the trunk looks more like the tail of a squirrel facing the other way..."
You say, "Hmmm, I see what you mean, but it's clearly an elephant"

That way, we both learn something about how other people think, which broadens our horizons, but we don't have to compromise on our individual views of the world.

There's room for further discussion in this scenario. But at present, the needle is stuck;

I'm saying, "Please explain how it's an elephant - I still don't see it"
And you're saying, "It's obviously an elephant! your silly belief that clouds are just water droplets is stopping you seeing the elephant!"
I'm saying, "Please explain how it's an elephant - I still don't see it"
Rinse & repeat.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

I know clouds can resemble the shapes of things - I see them myself, and I can usually see the shapes other people point out; but you're just jabbing your finger at the sky, telling me it's not just water droplets, it also looks like an elephant...

I almost certainly won't agree with your reasons for your assertions about science and materialism, but I'd like to hear what those reason are - so I can understand why you believe what you assert.
[/quote]

Just cut the crap  then , and answer my questions first , instead of sending the ball back to me over and over again , instead of telling me silly bed stories for kids  , then and only then , i will answer yours :
I have been asking this same core question explicitly or implicitly in one form or another for so long now , in vain : nobody , including yourself , can give an answer to : cannot be answered , simply because the materialist 'scientific world view ", or rather the materialist conception of nature is , obviously ...false :

Why do you think that reality as a whole is just material or physical then ,once again ? Why do you take it for granted as the "scientific world view " : when did science ever prove that materialist "fact ", or rather that materialist core belief assumption to be "true" that reality as a whole is just material or physical ? when ? = never , ever , obviously .
Just try to deliver your own materialist "extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of materialism regarding the materialist version of reality as a whole , the materialist version of reality that's been taken for granted as the alleged scientific world view " , an alleged 'scientific world view " that is,obviously  ..false .
Deal ?
 

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #769 on: 07/11/2013 19:58:54 »
Depends largely of which world view do you hold or believe in : has nothing to do with reason, science , logic....what you have been saying at least .

It's direct applied reason. The fact that most people don't get it only goes to show how irrational they are: you put a proof directly in front of them and they reject it out of nothing more than stupidity.

Quote
"God's existence has been disproved ? " by whom , by what when how where ?

By simple, applied reason.

Quote
Congratulations : you are such an unique genius that you have just solved this unsolved mystery even thousands of years of ancient philosophy , cholastics , modern philosophy , could not solve , obviously = God's existence can , obviously , neither be proved nor disproved : trying to either prove or disprove the existence of God was , once again , just an ancient Greek silly stupid cultural habit sport that was taken over by scholastics , and by modern philosophy , later on, in vain .
Even the modern analytical philosophy had already abandoned that 'search " ,for obvious reasons .

You cannot get cattle to accept any proof. The cattle simply believe what they believe and think they are right.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #770 on: 07/11/2013 20:11:29 »
Depends largely of which world view do you hold or believe in : has nothing to do with reason, science , logic....what you have been saying at least .

It's direct applied reason. The fact that most people don't get it only goes to show how irrational they are: you put a proof directly in front of them and they reject it out of nothing more than stupidity.

(Why didn't you , by the way ,try to answer why do you take the materialist "scientific world view " for granted as such? )

Are you calling me stupid , just because i am a religious believer , that's no question, obviously :
You are the one who should be called , and rightly so, the most stupid irrational sheep in all mankind's history ever (Cognitive intelligence is obviously a lower form of intellect , not the highest ) , together with the followers of that materialist dogmatic orthodox exclusive irrational secular false religion that has been taken for granted as "the scientific world view ", ironically enough : that false "scientific world view " that's been THE biggest  elaborate and absurd implausible scam and ultimate con in all mankind's history for that matter .
Complete balloney stupid non-sense make-believe  of yours here above : you are in fact just saying : my materialist mechanistic belief is better than yours = grow up = childish : reason has nothing to do with that + many highly intelligent people, scientists , thinkers .../were /are and will be religious people  ... + many great scientific discoveries were discovered/are being discovered/and will be discovered as well   by many religious scientists ....
Not to mention the fact that even science itself did originate from the very epistemology of a particular holy book at that .

Quote
Quote
"God's existence has been disproved ? " by whom , by what when how where ?

By simple, applied reason.

Bullshit : God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved = thousands of years of mankind's thought did prove just that fact to be true + that's something beyond human reason, science , logic ...obviously .
Quote
Quote
Congratulations : you are such an unique genius that you have just solved this unsolved mystery even thousands of years of ancient philosophy , cholastics , modern philosophy , could not solve , obviously = God's existence can , obviously , neither be proved nor disproved : trying to either prove or disprove the existence of God was , once again , just an ancient Greek silly stupid cultural habit sport that was taken over by scholastics , and by modern philosophy , later on, in vain .
Even the modern analytical philosophy had already abandoned that 'search " ,for obvious reasons .

You cannot get cattle to accept any proof. The cattle simply believe what they believe and think they are right.

Well, self-projections, i guess :

When you will be able to reject that materialist mechanistic false conception of nature you have been taking for granted as the 'scientific world view " without question like a brainless sheep , then and only then , i would take you seriously on the subject .
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 20:46:54 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #771 on: 07/11/2013 20:29:23 »
Very predictable indeed : 

This has been turning into an ugly counter-productive and offtopic exchange ,exit strategies :

I really did predict that some of these materialist friends of ours would try to bring up the issues of God and religions , just to avoid  answering why they have been taking the materialist 'scientific world view " for granted as such without question = a materialist "scientific world view " that's ,obviously ...false .

Well, as atheist French nobel prize winner for literature Albert Camus once said ,so eloquently and so truely ,  or in words to the same effect at least :

"We prefer to judge and accuse others , just in order to avoid being accused and judged ...ourselves "

In short :

I will not be answering any materialist , per definition, non-sense regarding God or religions , from now on .

No wonder that there is no God , simply because the materialist false "scientific world view " says so , no wonder : how convenient and handy indeed :
Of course there can be no God, if one would reduce reality as a whole to just physics and chemistry , the more when one would take that false materialist conception of nature for granted as the 'scientific world view " : how convenient .

Materialism is , obviously ,false , not because it intrinsically and , per definition, rejects God or religions, but simply because reality cannot be just material or physical ,no way .
Otherwise , folks , just try to answer the question why do you think reality as a whole is just material or physical , why do you take that false materialist conception of nature for granted as the "scientific world view  " then ...
Deal ?
None of you here or anybodyelse for that matter can answer that question, simply because materialism is ...false , obviously .

To say , there is no evidence for the existence of the immaterial is no evidence of abscence of the existence of the immaterial :
Abscence of evidence is not always evidence of abscence .
Science should and will develop new ways of understanding explaining describing reality as a whole ,when science will be delievered from materialism as a false secular dogmatic orthodox exclusive religion .


Religion, or just mine in my case then here ,  has been stimulating experience , personal experience ....before science ever learned to do so : even science istelf did originate from the very epistemology of the holy book of that particular religion thus , once again.

Reason, experience , logic , science , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense ...........are even religious duties in my own belief = forms of worship of God ..

Achhh...

End of story regarding this offtopic subject .
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 20:40:21 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #772 on: 07/11/2013 20:51:39 »
Simply ...disgusting is what this discussion has been turned into, for obvious materialist "reasons " ,instead of addressing the obvious falsehood of the materialist 'scientific world view "  at hand .
If one wanna talk about God, religions ...feel free to start a thread on the subject on some religious forums, not a a science one such as this one .
 

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #773 on: 07/11/2013 20:54:32 »
(Why didn't you , by the way ,try to answer why do you take the materialist "scientific world view " for granted as such? )

Reason is the only tool we have. As soon as you reject it you have nothing and there's no point in discussing anything.

Quote
Complete balloney stupid non-sense make-believe  : you are in fact just saying : my materialist mechanistic belief is better than yours = grow up = childish : reason has nothing to do with that + many highly intelligent people, scientists , thinkers .../were /are and will be religious people  ... + many great scientific discoveries were discovered/are being discovered/and will be discovered as well   by many religious scientists ....
Not to mention the fact that even science itself did originate from the very epistemology of a particular holy book at that .

Religious people apply reason selectively, so they often can and do make valid conclusions about things where their irrational beliefs don't trip them up. Holy books are typically full of selective reasoning where reason is used to justify what the ancient philosophers who wrote them wanted to believe, while any point where the exact same system of reasoning disproves what they wanted to believe was simply studiously ignored. They are riddled with contradictions which they steadfastly refuse to consider.

Quote
Quote
Quote
"God's existence has been disproved ? " by whom , by what when how where ?

By simple, applied reason.

Bullshit : God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved = thousands of years of mankind's thought did prove just that fact to be true + that's something beyond human reason, science , logic ...obviously .

Repeating an incorrect assertion doesn't trump a reasoned proof. Thousands of years of idiocy count for nothing.

Quote
Quote
You cannot get cattle to accept any proof. The cattle simply believe what they believe and think they are right.

Well, self-projections, i guess :

There is a clear problem in that person A who is of intelligence X has extreme difficulty recognising that person B who is of intelligence X+10 is more intelligent than person A. Whenever B says something that A disagrees with, A tends to assume that B is wrong. B knows that B is right, but A merely believes that A is right. The only thing that makes a difference between them is that one of them is right and the other is wrong. How can you tell whether you are in the position of A or B?

In this case it's easy. You look to see who's being logical and who isn't. If a required quality of God is that he created everything, clearly he had to create the magic/mechanism by which he can create things, and clearly he can't do that until he has got that capability that he wants to create, so he can't ever get started. There is no rational way round this problem. That quality of God is disproved - he cannot have created everything.

In the earlier example, a required quality of God is that he understands everything, but to understand everything he has to understand the entire mechanism behind everything. As soon as he understands everything, he understands himself to be nothing more exciting than a natural mechanistic system which leaves him with no justification for calling himself God. He would not be so stupid as to think he is God unless he is heavily deluded.

Quote
When you will be able to reject that materialist mechanistic false conception of nature you have been taking for granted as the 'scientific world view " without question like a brainless sheep , then and only then , i would take you seriously on the subject .

It is you who is being brainless by rejecting science and reason. You're left with nothing to hang your hat on other than magic. You call magic science and refuse to recognise that it is magic, but you will only fool irrational people who already share your beliefs.
 

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
    • View Profile
Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #774 on: 07/11/2013 21:01:43 »
Quote
Are you calling me stupid , just because i am a religious believer , that's no question, obviously :
You are the one who should be called , and rightly so, the most stupid irrational sheep in all mankind's history ever (Cognitive intelligence is obviously a lower form of intellect , not the highest ) , together with the followers of that materialist dogmatic orthodox exclusive irrational secular false religion that has been taken for granted as "the scientific world view ", ironically enough : that false "scientific world view " that's been THE biggest  elaborate and absurd implausible scam and ultimate con in all mankind's history for that matter .

I'm calling almost everyone stupid. The world is run by idiots who do all the wrong things. It is the nature of man to be stupid. We will be saved by machines though, machines which do nothing but apply correct reasoning and which do not reject correct proofs on the basis of silly beliefs.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #774 on: 07/11/2013 21:01:43 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums