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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 307482 times)

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #775 on: 07/11/2013 21:10:51 »
Very predictable indeed : 

This has been turning into an ugly counter-productive and offtopic exchange ,exit strategies :

I really did predict that some of these materialist friends of ours would try to bring up the issues of God and religions , just to avoid  answering why they have been taking the materialist 'scientific world view " for granted as such without question = a materialist "scientific world view " that's ,obviously ...false .

Quite a few of your posts ended with the word God sitting all by itself at the bottom as if it was your answer to everything. What was it doing there?

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Materialism is , obviously ,false , not because it intrinsically and , per definition, rejects God or religions, but simply because reality cannot be just material or physical ,no way .

If God was possible, science would not reject God but would happily set out to explain God mechanistically.

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Otherwise , folks , just try to answer the question why do you think reality as a whole is just material or physical , why do you take that false materialist conception of nature for granted as the "scientific world view  " then ...

I'm not interested in whether it's material/physical. What matters is whether it is mechanistic. If it is, then it is material/physical. If it is not, then it is magical.

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Religion, or just mine in my case then here ,  has been stimulating experience , personal experience ....before science ever learned to do so : even science istelf did originate from the very epistemology of the holy book of that particular religion thus , once again.

Science existed before religion. Religion is simply bad science from a time when science wasn't always done properly and baseless assertions about beings that don't exist (or which aren't what they claim) became tied up in it.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #776 on: 07/11/2013 21:12:50 »
Simply ...disgusting is what this discussion has been turned into, for obvious materialist "reasons " ,instead of addressing the obvious falsehood of the materialist 'scientific world view "  at hand .
If one wanna talk about God, religions ...feel free to start a thread on the subject on some religious forums, not a a science one such as this one .

That would be fine except that underlying everything you're doing here is a belief in something which drives you to rubbish real science.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #777 on: 07/11/2013 21:20:44 »
(Why didn't you , by the way ,try to answer why do you take the materialist "scientific world view " for granted as such? )

Reason is the only tool we have. As soon as you reject it you have nothing and there's no point in discussing anything.

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Complete balloney stupid non-sense make-believe  : you are in fact just saying : my materialist mechanistic belief is better than yours = grow up = childish : reason has nothing to do with that + many highly intelligent people, scientists , thinkers .../were /are and will be religious people  ... + many great scientific discoveries were discovered/are being discovered/and will be discovered as well   by many religious scientists ....
Not to mention the fact that even science itself did originate from the very epistemology of a particular holy book at that .

Religious people apply reason selectively, so they often can and do make valid conclusions about things where their irrational beliefs don't trip them up. Holy books are typically full of selective reasoning where reason is used to justify what the ancient philosophers who wrote them wanted to believe, while any point where the exact same system of reasoning disproves what they wanted to believe was simply studiously ignored. They are riddled with contradictions which they steadfastly refuse to consider.

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"God's existence has been disproved ? " by whom , by what when how where ?

By simple, applied reason.

Bullshit : God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved = thousands of years of mankind's thought did prove just that fact to be true + that's something beyond human reason, science , logic ...obviously .

Repeating an incorrect assertion doesn't trump a reasoned proof. Thousands of years of idiocy count for nothing.

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You cannot get cattle to accept any proof. The cattle simply believe what they believe and think they are right.

Well, self-projections, i guess :

There is a clear problem in that person A who is of intelligence X has extreme difficulty recognising that person B who is of intelligence X+10 is more intelligent than person A. Whenever B says something that A disagrees with, A tends to assume that B is wrong. B knows that B is right, but A merely believes that A is right. The only thing that makes a difference between them is that one of them is right and the other is wrong. How can you tell whether you are in the position of A or B?

In this case it's easy. You look to see who's being logical and who isn't. If a required quality of God is that he created everything, clearly he had to create the magic/mechanism by which he can create things, and clearly he can't do that until he has got that capability that he wants to create, so he can't ever get started. There is no rational way round this problem. That quality of God is disproved - he cannot have created everything.

In the earlier example, a required quality of God is that he understands everything, but to understand everything he has to understand the entire mechanism behind everything. As soon as he understands everything, he understands himself to be nothing more exciting than a natural mechanistic system which leaves him with no justification for calling himself God. He would not be so stupid as to think he is God unless he is heavily deluded.

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When you will be able to reject that materialist mechanistic false conception of nature you have been taking for granted as the 'scientific world view " without question like a brainless sheep , then and only then , i would take you seriously on the subject .

It is you who is being brainless by rejecting science and reason. You're left with nothing to hang your hat on other than magic. You call magic science and refuse to recognise that it is magic, but you will only fool irrational people who already share your beliefs.
[/quote]

(I have been rejecting just materialism in science that has been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view" ,it goes without saying that  I am extremely pro-science proper , that's why i would love to see the latter getting liberated from materialism that's just a false world view in science , once again )

You know what :
I think you were just trying to derail this discussion you , obviously , cannot handle by talking about God and religions , instead of daring to address the obvious falsehood of the materialist "scientific world view " = you are just "reasoning " from a false materialist point of view = from the materialist belief assumptions ' point of view thus regarding the nature of reality as a whole , that's all : neither reason , logic nor science have anything whatsoever to do with all that you were saying .
So, i am not gonna lower myself to your level by being dragged by you into an ungly exchange of insults .
I am not gonna talk about God and religion on a science forum either .

Just try to address the core issue here at hand concerning the obvious falsehood of the materialist "scientific world view "  , instead of these silly childish scary bed stories for kids you have been telling us : Grow up .
You are just delivering materialist belief assumptions that are , per definition, false and can easily be refuted : in fact, materialism is so absurd , so childish , so implausible ,so false , so inconsistent incoherent ...you name it , that it is extremely puzzling how relatively intelligent people (cognititive intelligence is , obviously , not the highest form of intellect , not even remotely close thus ) , extremely puzzling how relatively intelligent folks can suscribe to that ridiculous materialism , the more when they take it for granted as the "scientific world view " without question , amazing :

In short :
Materialism is so irrelevant and so unworthy of any criticism even , simply because it is self-defeating and self-refuting = an understatement , materialism is so childish that i would have never bothered to mention it even , if it has not been taken for granted as the "scientific world view " ,really ...amazing .

Pathetic ...
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #778 on: 07/11/2013 21:26:19 »
We're not talking religion or God on this science forum :
We are just talking about the materialist "scientific world view " that's false, science proper gotta be liberated from  .
The materialist false 'scientific world view " that's just magic in science proper ,once again .
You can sing all day and night long about God and religion any way you like it , but , that won't make the simple obvious and undeniable fact go away that the materialist 'scientific world view " is false = has nothing whatsoever to do with science proper i do love so much , you have no idea .
Ciao.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #779 on: 07/11/2013 21:36:34 »
I am perfectly entiteld to have a world view of my own : i just do keep it outside of science ,and i have also never pretended  that my own world view was  'scientific ",  unlike materialism that's not only a secular false religion that has been hijacking science for so long now , but materialism also does sell its own world view to the people as the "scientific world view " : what a huge crime against humanity in fact that has been .
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #780 on: 07/11/2013 21:42:36 »
(I have been rejecting just materialism in science that has been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view" ,it goes without saying that  I am extremely pro-science proper , that's why i would love to see the latter getting liberated from materialism that's just a false world view in science , once again )

You are not pro-science at all. Science is about determining how things work and what they are. You are only interested in muddying the water by branding it as materialism and asserting that there's something else which is being missed, while refusing to call that something else "magic".

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You know what :
I think you were just trying to derail this discussion

When I posted about how God can be disproved, it was a reply to someone else in this thread and had nothing to do with you. You could have ignored it, but you took it as an attack on your position. Why would you take it as an attack on your position if God is not tied up in your position? That reveals a lot.

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you , obviously , cannot handle by talking about God and religions , instead of daring to address the obvious falsehood of the materialist "scientific world view " = you are just "reasoning " from a false materialist point of view = from the materialist belief assumptions ' point of view thus regarding the nature of reality as a whole , that's all : neither reason , logic nor science have anything whatsoever to do with all that you were saying .

Reason has everything to do with what I've been saying. I'm simply showing you what happens if you apply it and accept what it tells you. If you reject what it tells you, you are rejecting reason.

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So, i am not gonna lower myself to your level by being dragged by you into an ungly exchange of insults .
I am not gonna talk about God and religion on a science forum either .

You started all the insults long ago (see the first few pages of the thread). I never responded to them. I haven't intentionally insulted you now either, but merely stated truths. Most people are stupid (evidence - look at the crazy way the world is run). I didn't say that you are stupid, so if you are putting yourself in that camp you are insulting yourself.

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Just try to address the core issue here at hand concerning the obvious falsehood of the materialist "scientific world view "  , instead of these silly childish scary bed stories for kids you have been telling us : Grow up .

I've already addressed everything that's come up where it's been relevant. You just keep ignoring the answers and repeat the same old questions over and over again. You're stuck in a rut of self-imposed ignorance because you don't take anything on board. You don't make any progress. You are shackled in your thinking by false beliefs which won't let go of you.

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You are just delivering materialist belief assumptions that are , per definition, false and can easily be refuted : in fact, materialism is so absurd , so childish , so implausible ,so false , so inconsistent incoherent ...you name it , that it is extremely puzzling how relatively intelligent people (cognititive intelligence is , obviously , not the highest form of intellect , not even remotely close thus ) , extremely puzzling how relatively intelligent folks can suscribe to that ridiculous materialism , the more when they take it for granted as the "scientific world view " without question , amazing :

You're just a propaganda regurgitating machine. Mechanisms are what matter to understanding things. If you want to attack me, attack mechanisms and attack the whole idea of understanding and of reason. You are fixated on materialism and will spend your whole life attacking it instead of recognising that I base things not on materials but on mechanism.

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In short :
Materialism is so irrelevant and so unworthy of any criticism even , simply because it is self-defeating and self-refuting = an understatement , materialism is so childish that i would have never bothered to mention it even , if it has not been taken for granted as the "scientific world view " ,really ...amazing .

Pathetic ...

It is a warped idea of science that you are attacking, but you are blind. Admittedly there are a lot of people in the science camp who want consciousness to ping into existence by magic and who wrongly believe that this is science, but most of what they do is based in uncovering mechanism. Language and thought depend on mechanism, not magic. Consciousness is the one sticking-point, and that's what this thread should be about, but you widened it out into an attack on science at large, dragging in an enormous tonnage of things that are already understood mechanistically and asserting that they are not understood even though they are. You are simply someone who specialises in muddying the water in order to create a tsunami of unnecessary difficulties which turn the discussion into nothing but pointless, bloated fluff.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #781 on: 08/11/2013 02:35:31 »

In short :

Just cut the crap  then , and answer my questions first , instead of sending the ball back to me over and over again , instead of telling me silly bed stories for kids  , then and only then , i will answer yours :

Deal ? [/b]

Don, people have answered your questions, but you reject the answer. Fine, that's your prerogative. But when they throw the ball back in your court, and say "okay, what's your theory? How does the immaterial work? Explain some immaterial processes in detail" you just respond, once again, with only and the same complaints about materialism. You also equate scientists choosing to investigate anything material with with rejection of the immaterial, denial of it, an attack on it, and yes, even a conspiracy to suppress information or investigation of it. That is just an assumption on your part. Finally, your condescension is irritating, when you constantly imply that anyone who disagrees with you is confused, "not reading carefully", "cannot grasp," and is silly, childish, etc.

"Got that? Deal?"
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 07:48:06 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #782 on: 08/11/2013 06:05:39 »
I'm sorry, am I repeating myself? Am I being redundant? Am I saying things over and over?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #783 on: 08/11/2013 09:24:51 »
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Bullshit : God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved

Not quite. Every defined god is disprovable, but the moment you show the  definition to be selfcontradictory or inconsistent with observation, the proponent says "well that's not quite what I meant by god". Which by infinite recursion of the scientific process leaves us with the definition of god as "that which I refuse to define, cannot be observed, and does not act in a consistent manner". Hence no possible debate with a rational being.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 09:27:34 by alancalverd »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #784 on: 08/11/2013 10:57:59 »
I'm sorry, am I repeating myself? Am I being redundant? Am I saying things over and over?
No, that would be Don. After months of intemperate repetition, he still seems quite unable to articulate the reasons for his odd beliefs about science and the 'immaterial realm', or to describe what difference his ...eccentric... suggestions would make. Which raises the question of whether he actually has any reasons, or is instead just regurgitating the results of indoctrination. Either way, it makes for a poor discussion when one party is stuck on ignore and repeat. It was entertaining for a while, but it's become boring.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 10:59:30 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #785 on: 08/11/2013 16:34:51 »
I'm sorry, am I repeating myself? Am I being redundant? Am I saying things over and over?
No, that would be Don. After months of intemperate repetition, he still seems quite unable to articulate the reasons for his odd beliefs about science and the 'immaterial realm', or to describe what difference his ...eccentric... suggestions would make. Which raises the question of whether he actually has any reasons, or is instead just regurgitating the results of indoctrination. Either way, it makes for a poor discussion when one party is stuck on ignore and repeat. It was entertaining for a while, but it's become boring.

Oh, boy , if i knew what  the potantially valid alternative to materialism in science would be ,would look like or how it should be applied to science as a result  , i wouldn't be here ,don't you think ?, even Nagel, Sheldrake and others do not know .
As Nagel said in that book of his,or in words to that same effect at least : I am here to state the  problem which represents  , as Sheldrake stated in his "Science set free ..." book , a deeper malaise at the heart of science , i am not here to propose a solution to the problem i do not have yet , if ever .
Knowing the problem is half way to solving it eventually .

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #786 on: 08/11/2013 16:45:30 »

In short :

Just cut the crap  then , and answer my questions first , instead of sending the ball back to me over and over again , instead of telling me silly bed stories for kids  , then and only then , i will answer yours :

Deal ? [/b]

Don, people have answered your questions, but you reject the answer. Fine, that's your prerogative. But when they throw the ball back in your court, and say "okay, what's your theory? How does the immaterial work? Explain some immaterial processes in detail" you just respond, once again, with only and the same complaints about materialism. You also equate scientists choosing to investigate anything material with with rejection of the immaterial, denial of it, an attack on it, and yes, even a conspiracy to suppress information or investigation of it. That is just an assumption on your part. Finally, your condescension is irritating, when you constantly imply that anyone who disagrees with you is confused, "not reading carefully", "cannot grasp," and is silly, childish, etc.

"Got that? Deal?"
[/quote]

Nobody here or elsewhere has an answer to that core question at hand : why have people , especially scientists ,  been assuming  that reality as a whole is just material or physical ?, why has materialism been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view "?

No one can answer just that ,  simply because materialism is false ,and hence "the scientific world view " is therefore also false .
As for the rest of your speculations = irrelevant .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #787 on: 08/11/2013 17:00:29 »
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Are you calling me stupid , just because i am a religious believer , that's no question, obviously :
You are the one who should be called , and rightly so, the most stupid irrational sheep in all mankind's history ever (Cognitive intelligence is obviously a lower form of intellect , not the highest ) , together with the followers of that materialist dogmatic orthodox exclusive irrational secular false religion that has been taken for granted as "the scientific world view ", ironically enough : that false "scientific world view " that's been THE biggest  elaborate and absurd implausible scam and ultimate con in all mankind's history for that matter .

I'm calling almost everyone stupid. The world is run by idiots who do all the wrong things. It is the nature of man to be stupid. We will be saved by machines though, machines which do nothing but apply correct reasoning and which do not reject correct proofs on the basis of silly beliefs.
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The exact same goes for you also  and much more  ,ironically enough , in relation to your silly mechanistic materialist belief , the more when you do take the latter for granted as the 'scientific world view ", the more when we do take into consideration the obvious simple and undeniable fact that materialism is ...false , and hence "the scientific world view " is therefore also false= you are therefore way worse than any given ignorant irrational religious fanatic : you do not only take your materialist belief for granted as  being  "true ", but , you also take it for granted as the 'scientific world view " .

Congratulations then .

P.S.: To say that man-made machines can solve the problem of certain stubborn beliefs people hold in the face of counter-evidence  is ludicrous and tragic -hilarious , it is like saying that science is not a human activity, or that objectivity even in science is not a ...myth.

Well, try to solve your own obvious problem first then , regarding the simple fact that you do take your materialist mechanistic core belief assumptions for granted not only as being "true ", but also as "the scientific world view "  .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #788 on: 08/11/2013 17:24:34 »
Folks :
Since any attempts to try to describe, or  explain and therefore understand reality ,or rather just some parts of it at least , just the ones science mainly can approach empirically ,science that does deal with reality piecemeal thus , since any attempts thus to try to describe or  explain reality and therefore to try to understand it  must include the mental side of life that's ,obviously , not reducible to the physical , then  naturalist  redctionism must be false and therefore naturalist materialism must be false also as a result , naturalist materialism that does require reductionism thus .
Even biology itself, and all the other physical sciences , cannot therefore remain just physical ways of approaching reality,since they must thus try to include the mental side of life that's not reducible to the physical  .
So, man must therefore try to develop new ways of understanding through science mainly that must include the mental .
How ?
Neither Nagel , Sheldrake or any other philosopher  or scientist for that matter can or pretend to be able yet to come up with a solution or with an alternative to materialism  in the form of a more or less valid non-reductionist naturalist conception of nature in science .
Nagel just tried to figure out a way out of this predicament in science , by assuming that nature is intrinsically teleological , and an intrinsic "generator " of life , mind , consciousness ...from the very beginning  = simply a ludicrous kind of non-reductionist naturalist metaphysics .
Have any suggestions or better ideas on the subject ,folks ?
Thanks , appreciate indeed .
Cheers .
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #789 on: 08/11/2013 18:18:10 »
... any attempts thus to try to describe or  explain reality and therefore to try to understand it  must include the mental side of life that's ,obviously , not reducible to the physical , then  naturalist  redctionism must be false and therefore naturalist materialism must be false also as a result , naturalist materialism that does require reductionism thus .
Even biology itself, and all the other physical sciences , cannot therefore remain just physical ways of approaching reality,since they must thus try to include the mental side of life that's not reducible to the physical  .
I suggest you reconsider your assumption that the mental side of life cannot be explained as a product of material processes.

Alternatively, you could try explaining why you think it can't be.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #790 on: 08/11/2013 18:50:05 »
The exact same goes for you also  and much more  ,ironically enough , in relation to your silly mechanistic materialist belief , the more when you do take the latter for granted as the 'scientific world view ", the more when we do take into consideration the obvious simple and undeniable fact that materialism is ...false , and hence "the scientific world view " is therefore also false= you are therefore way worse than any given ignorant irrational religious fanatic : you do not only take your materialist belief for granted as  being  "true ", but , you also take it for granted as the 'scientific world view " .

I've told you what science should be. It doesn't matter how many/few scientists do science correctly, just as it doesn't matter that religions don't do science correctly - real science is real science and it is governed by reason (without which you can't think usefully at all). Any break from reason is a break from science. You are now revealing more about your irrationality by rejecting not just materialism, but the whole idea of understanding cause-and-effect mechanism. You are anti-science.

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P.S.: To say that man-made machines can solve the problem of certain stubborn beliefs people hold in the face of counter-evidence  is ludicrous and tragic -hilarious , it is like saying that science is not a human activity, or that objectivity even in science is not a ...myth.

Intelligent machines will bring up future generations to be able to think properly without being shackled by religious propaganda. Religious books like to bombard the reader with reasoned arguments to try to prove that God exists, but they don't hold water. An AGI system will provide objections for the reader at every turn, pointing out all the tricks being used by the human creator of the religion which are being used to try to con them. They are all written by well-meaning philosophers who wanted to make a better world but who tried to do so by telling lies, and the result is books which are riddled with faults which show them up as false. Brainwashed people don't tend to pick up on the faults, and they are further bombarded by water-muddying commentaries by other people around them which serve to make them give up thinking for themselves, but AGI systems will turn all of that upside-down and give everyone a proper commentary which blows the whole thing out of the water. The same will happen with bad science, AGI systems having the patience to argue everything through to the utter end over and over again with every individual on the planet - it's impossible for humans to do this because there are so few that can see where science has gone wrong and they're up against armies of people who are trained to believe what they're taught and not to question it, just like with religions.

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Well, try to solve your own obvious problem first then , regarding the simple fact that you do take your materialist mechanistic core belief assumptions for granted not only as being "true ", but also as "the scientific world view " .

I don't take them as the scientific world view. I'm only telling you what science should be if it was always done properly. For the most part though, it is done properly - there are just a few little areas here and there where reason is not being applied correctly and where claims are being made out of ignorance which don't add up (as with consciousness where magical emergence is the mainstream).
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #791 on: 08/11/2013 18:53:48 »
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... any attempts thus to try to describe or  explain reality and therefore to try to understand it  must include the mental side of life that's ,obviously , not reducible to the physical , then  naturalist  redctionism must be false and therefore naturalist materialism must be false also as a result , naturalist materialism that does require reductionism thus .
Even biology itself, and all the other physical sciences , cannot therefore remain just physical ways of approaching reality,since they must thus try to include the mental side of life that's not reducible to the physical  .
I suggest you reconsider your assumption that the mental side of life cannot be explained as a product of material processes.

Alternatively, you could try explaining why you think it can't be.

The material, physical or biological  processes cannot "give rise " to totally different "emergent phenomena " processes whose non-physical non-biological non-material "components " are totally different , qua nature , not only qua genre thus , from their alleged original physical material or biological "components " .


So now you have said where it is, perhaps you will enlighten us as to what consciousness does and whether, since is pervades every atom, it is pre-existent to any organism rather than an emergent property of an ensemble.

Emergent property phenomena does occur only at the physical , biological and material level, i guess = emergent phenomena are just different from their original components qua genre , not qua nature = physical ,material or biological "systems " do give rise only to material, physical or biological emergent phenomena thus  .
Biological or any physical or material 'systems " for that matter cannot give rise to totally different phenomena qua their nature whose components are totally different from those that allegedly "gave rise to them " = consciousness as a non-physical non -material non-biological phenomena cannot thus have "emerged " from the physical material biological evolved complexity of the physical brain,no way thus = that's just materialist magic in science regarding the origins and nature of consciousness , the latter that's allegedly just a biological phenomena or process  = how convenient for materialists to try to reduce the non-reducible to the physical just to make it fit into their mechanistic materialist false "scientific world view " = materialist magic in science = materialist belief assumptions , no empirical facts  .
Consciousness is non-physical and non-local thus ,even though it maybe  permeates every atom , cell and organ of ours and beyond ...I dunno for sure, not even remotely close thus  = who does ?
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 18:56:01 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #792 on: 08/11/2013 19:09:45 »
... Biological or any physical or material 'systems " for that matter cannot give rise to totally different phenomena qua their nature whose components are totally different from those that allegedly "gave rise to them "

Have you not played with "Conway's Game of Life", where space-invader type patterns emerge whose appearance and behaviour are more complex than the rules which created them.

[ similar patterns appear in real life ]

Quote from: wikipedia.org/Conway's Game of Life
Conway's Game of Life has attracted much interest, because of the surprising ways in which the patterns can evolve. Life provides an example of emergence and self-organization. It is interesting for computer scientists, physicists, biologists, biochemists, economists, mathematicians, philosophers, generative scientists and others to observe the way that complex patterns can emerge from the implementation of very simple rules.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life#Origins

« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 19:19:36 by RD »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #793 on: 08/11/2013 19:37:50 »
The exact same goes for you also  and much more  ,ironically enough , in relation to your silly mechanistic materialist belief , the more when you do take the latter for granted as the 'scientific world view ", the more when we do take into consideration the obvious simple and undeniable fact that materialism is ...false , and hence "the scientific world view " is therefore also false= you are therefore way worse than any given ignorant irrational religious fanatic : you do not only take your materialist belief for granted as  being  "true ", but , you also take it for granted as the 'scientific world view " .
I've told you what science should be. It doesn't matter how many/few scientists do science correctly, just as it doesn't matter that religions don't do science correctly - real science is real science and it is governed by reason (without which you can't think usefully at all). Any break from reason is a break from science. You are now revealing more about your irrationality by rejecting not just materialism, but the whole idea of understanding cause-and-effect mechanism. You are anti-science.

" I am aniti-science ? " , so is Nagel, Sheldrake and many other philosophers scientists and other anti-reductionists as well, logically,paradoxically enough  .
I do love science so much in fact , as  those philsosphers , scientists and other anti-reductionists do  , that i would love to see science delivered from the false reductionist mechanistic materialism in fact thus, in order for science to be less dogmatic and more scientific  = I am way more pro-science thus than you could ever be , my friend , sorry, simply because you have been turning science into just a materialist secular exclusive dogmatic mechanistic religion you have been taking for granted as the 'scientific world view " ,without question so far .
It is reasonable enough to assume that the non-physical mental is non -reducible to the physical , and therefore all physical sciences for that matter ,including biology and modern physics thus , must include the non-physical mental in their approach of reality as a result :they have no choice but to do that ,if they want to  fully deserve being   called sciences at least :  they cannot keep on reducing the non-physical  to just the physical it cannot be reduced to , you cannot just decide  to reduce the irreducible mental to the physical via some false materialist mechanistic belief of yours on the subject , just in order to make it fit into your owm materialist reductionist mechanistic conception of nature ,or world view , while assuming that that's the 'scientific world view " : you cannot have it both ways thus , no way ,simply because reality as a whole stares you in the face via both its physical and non-physical eyes , the physical and the non-physical eyes of reality as a whole ,so to speak = you cannot just keep on behaving as if both eyes of reality are physical ,just to suit your own mechanistic materialist purpose at the expense of science and at the expense of the truth ,  or that the non-physical eye of reality does not exist as such .

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P.S.: To say that man-made machines can solve the problem of certain stubborn beliefs people hold in the face of counter-evidence  is ludicrous and tragic -hilarious , it is like saying that science is not a human activity, or that objectivity even in science is not a ...myth.

Intelligent machines will bring up future generations to be able to think properly without being shackled by religious propaganda. Religious books like to bombard the reader with reasoned arguments to try to prove that God exists, but they don't hold water. An AGI system will provide objections for the reader at every turn, pointing out all the tricks being used by the human creator of the religion which are being used to try to con them. They are all written by well-meaning philosophers who wanted to make a better world but who tried to do so by telling lies, and the result is books which are riddled with faults which show them up as false. Brainwashed people don't tend to pick up on the faults, and they are further bombarded by water-muddying commentaries by other people around them which serve to make them give up thinking for themselves, but AGI systems will turn all of that upside-down and give everyone a proper commentary which blows the whole thing out of the water. The same will happen with bad science, AGI systems having the patience to argue everything through to the utter end over and over again with every individual on the planet - it's impossible for humans to do this because there are so few that can see where science has gone wrong and they're up against armies of people who are trained to believe what they're taught and not to question it, just like with religions.

Will those machines of the future be able to tell the people that the materialist 'scientific world view " is ,obviously , false ? =   just a false materialist conception of nature : Don't think so , if they would happen to be made by materialists such as yourself .
I do not buy that whole idea of yours , simply because any machines for that matter are man-made , and can thus never surpass man as a whole package , even though they can be faster in calculations , can be better at making and designing models , prediction models ....= man will always have the upper hand over or above  man's  own created machines .

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Well, try to solve your own obvious problem first then , regarding the simple fact that you do take your materialist mechanistic core belief assumptions for granted not only as being "true ", but also as "the scientific world view " .

I don't take them as the scientific world view. I'm only telling you what science should be if it was always done properly. For the most part though, it is done properly - there are just a few little areas here and there where reason is not being applied correctly and where claims are being made out of ignorance which don't add up (as with consciousness where magical emergence is the mainstream).

Ironically paradoxically enough , you do take the materialist mechanistic core belief assumption regarding the nature of reality for granted as  being  "true " , and hence you do take the materialist mechanistic world view for granted as the " scientific world view " , without question .
That's precisely what the mainstream  scientific establishment or community has been doing for so long now = that's exactly what's wrong with science today = that's a way deeper malaise than just what you were mentioning thus .

Science will be certainly better off without materialism, no doubt about that : how ?,i wish i knew how ,  i dunno exactly yet , if ever thus .
Only time will tell then .
Let's hope we will all witness that ,during our short lifetimes.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #794 on: 08/11/2013 19:44:25 »
... Biological or any physical or material 'systems " for that matter cannot give rise to totally different phenomena qua their nature whose components are totally different from those that allegedly "gave rise to them "

Have you not played with "Conway's Game of Life", where space-invader type patterns emerge whose appearance and behaviour are more complex than the rules which created them.

[ similar patterns appear in real life ]

Quote from: wikipedia.org/Conway's Game of Life
Conway's Game of Life has attracted much interest, because of the surprising ways in which the patterns can evolve. Life provides an example of emergence and self-organization. It is interesting for computer scientists, physicists, biologists, biochemists, economists, mathematicians, philosophers, generative scientists and others to observe the way that complex patterns can emerge from the implementation of very simple rules.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life#Origins
[/quote]

I think you should read what i said regarding emergent phenomena here above .
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #795 on: 08/11/2013 20:19:11 »
The material, physical or biological  processes cannot "give rise " to totally different "emergent phenomena " processes whose non-physical non-biological non-material "components " are totally different , qua nature , not only qua genre thus , from their alleged original physical material or biological "components " .
Emergence is all about the surprising generation of seemingly unrelated 'meta phenomena' of a higher level of abstraction, and that's what makes it such a fascinating subject.

Sadly, you seem to have the same grasp of emergence as you do of chaos theory. If you spent some time to understand emergence, you might see how it could be relevant. Unfortunately, your baseless insistence that consciousness cannot have a material origin will prevent you from ever recognising that.
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #796 on: 08/11/2013 20:22:23 »
you should read what i said regarding emergent phenomena here above

I did , you said 
... Biological or any physical or material 'systems " for that matter cannot give rise to totally different phenomena qua their nature whose components are totally different from those that allegedly "gave rise to them "

i.e. you appear to be saying that emergent properties "cannot" occur , when in reality they do : cellular automata are an example , ( which can be used to simulate neurons , the hardware on which the software of consciousness runs ).
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 20:27:54 by RD »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #797 on: 08/11/2013 20:28:38 »
you should read what i said regarding emergent phenomena here above

I did , you said 
... Biological or any physical or material 'systems " for that matter cannot give rise to totally different phenomena qua their nature whose components are totally different from those that allegedly "gave rise to them "

i.e. you appear to be saying that emergent properties "cannot" occur , when in reality they do : cellular automata are an example , ( which can be used to simulate neurons , the hardware on which the software of consciousness runs ).
[/quote]

Yeah , i appear to be saying , but i did not say that : reread what i said then .
Appearances are deceptive indeed .
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #798 on: 08/11/2013 20:37:56 »
" I am anti-science ? " , so is Nagel, Sheldrake and many other philosophers scientists and other anti-reductionists as well, logically,paradoxically enough  .

They are giving up on science and replacing it with a quest to not understand.

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I am way more pro-science thus than you could ever be , my friend , sorry, simply because you have been turning science into just a materialist secular exclusive dogmatic mechanistic religion you have been taking for granted as the 'scientific world view " ,without question so far .

Your position is an abandonment of science. You can call that "science" all you like, but it is the opposite.

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It is reasonable enough to assume that the non-physical mental is non -reducible to the physical , and therefore all physical sciences for that matter ,including biology and modern physics thus , must include the non-physical mental in their approach of reality as a result :they have no choice but to do that ,if they want to  fully deserve being   called sciences at least :  they cannot keep on reducing the non-physical  to just the physical it cannot be reduced to , you cannot just decide  to reduce the irreducible mental to the physical via some false materialist mechanistic belief of yours on the subject , just in order to make it fit into your owm materialist reductionist mechanistic conception of nature ,or world view , while assuming that that's the 'scientific world view "

I'd take your argument seriously if you didn't keep telling me that things which can manifestly be explained mechanistically can't be understood mechanistically.

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Will those machines of the future be able to tell the people that the materialist 'scientific world view " is ,obviously , false ? =   just a false materialist conception of nature : Don't think so , if they would happen to be made by materialists such as yourself .

They will read the arguments on all sides without bias, yours included, and then they will judge them by means of reasoning and reject the ones which don't hold. When you tell these machines that they cannot do what they are doing (thinking and using language 100% mechanistically), they will reject your views on those points. In any place where your arguments do stack up though, they will recognise that.

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I do not buy that whole idea of yours , simply because any machines for that matter are man-made , and can thus never surpass man as a whole package , even though they can be faster in calculations , can be better at making and designing models , prediction models ....= man will always have the upper hand over or above  man's  own created machines .

No. People make mistakes in their thinking all over the shop, and although they can correct a lot of them, it's hard for them to remove them all. On many issues the thinking that needs to be done is just too deep and involves too much data, so the machines will always outthink them.

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Ironically paradoxically enough , you do take the materialist mechanistic core belief assumption regarding the nature of reality for granted as  being  "true " , and hence you do take the materialist mechanistic world view for granted as the " scientific world view " , without question .

The only thing I take for granted is that reason applies, because without it we cannot work out anything at all or argue about anything. Everything in my position is generated through applying reason to the data that comes in from the universe around me, and that is how AGI systems will work. There may be places where I'm failing to apply reason correctly which I haven't noticed, but AGI systems will pick up on those and set me on the right path. It will do the same for everyone else. Wherever anyone has a belief based on bad reasoning, it will show them the error of their ways.

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That's precisely what the mainstream  scientific establishment or community has been doing for so long now = that's exactly what's wrong with science today = that's a way deeper malaise than just what you were mentioning thus .

There is no way to do science properly than to do science properly. If you chuck out all attempts to understand things and deny that there are mechanisms behind the things that happen in the universe, you're left with anti-science where any assertion is as valid as any other, so you can spout any garbage you like and call it science. I know which kind of science I prefer.

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Science will be certainly better off without materialism, no doubt about that : how ?,i wish i knew how ,  i dunno exactly yet , if ever thus .
Only time will tell then .
Let's hope we will all witness that ,during our short lifetimes.

What has materialism got to do with it? What exactly is materialism anyway? Is it just stuff like matter, energy and the fabric of the universe or does it also include things of no material substance such as actions which play upon the material? Is it any kind of cause-and-effect interaction? If you define the term materialism narrowly, it doesn't cover anyone's position. If you define it more broadly, it includes my position where mechanism is key to understanding. If it includes mechanism, there is nothing that can interact with anything which doesn't depend upon mechanism. I really can't see what you think you're left with when you reject this wider sense of materialism, because as soon as you deny the role of mechanism, all you're left with is magic and an assertion that magic doesn't need any mechanism to operate. You can't get more anti-science than that.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #799 on: 08/11/2013 20:38:25 »
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The material, physical or biological  processes cannot "give rise " to totally different "emergent phenomena " processes whose non-physical non-biological non-material "components " are totally different , qua nature , not only qua genre thus , from their alleged original physical material or biological "components " .
Emergence is all about the surprising generation of seemingly unrelated 'meta phenomena' of a higher level of abstraction, and that's what makes it such a fascinating subject.

Sadly, you seem to have the same grasp of emergence as you do of chaos theory. If you spent some time to understand emergence, you might see how it could be relevant. Unfortunately, your baseless insistence that consciousness cannot have a material origin will prevent you from ever recognising that.

That the non-physical consciousness allegedly 'emerged " via some inexplicable materialist magic from the complexity of the evolved physical   brain is a materialist reductionist mechanistic belief assumption that's not therefore an empirical one ,obviously , is a subject we did discuss earlier :
Try to sell that irrational stubborn unscientific materialist magical belief assumption of yours to David Cooper then haha : he does also reject it , and rightly so .
Emergent phenomena do occur only at the physical, material and biological level , once again .

The   non-physical   consciousness cannot have 'emerged " from  the   physical   brain , no matter how complex or evolved the latter might ever be ,obviously,simply because the 2 are totally different  from each other  , not only qua genre , but also qua nature= the nature of consciousness  is non-physical , that of the brain is physical   .

Re-read carefully what i said earlier on the same subject then .
« Last Edit: 08/11/2013 20:40:03 by DonQuichotte »
 

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
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