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Author Topic: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?  (Read 308053 times)

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #900 on: 23/11/2013 21:05:22 »

Do you exclude a-priori any non-physical forms of causation ?


No, because that was never my argument to begin with. Again, if you require science to prove the nonexistence of things for which it has no evidence, you are requiring it to prove an infinite number of propositions an infinite number of times. And I didn't check today, either, for a rhinoceros in my basement. 

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Do you deny the fact that the mind of the observer does affect the observed .?


I agree with dlorde's past posts about your interpretation of those physics experiments.

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And how can the "physical " mind "that's " in the brain , the mental "that's just physics and chemistry"  thus , be able to tell us anything reliable about physics and chemistry = circular "reasoning " : the observed  does imply  the mental of the observer that's observing it , does it not ?

If you want to label some thing "the observed," it implies an observer. But I wouldn't agree that nothing existed before human beings were around to observe it.

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instead of trying to play the silly wise girl, why don't you enlighten us about how physics and chemistry alone can explain "everything = nothing " then,while missing the mental side of reality , genius .

That was never my position. But I have explained why I think your concept of the immaterial is fundamentally irrational. see #875.

What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 15:27:03 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #901 on: 23/11/2013 21:14:01 »
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Answer my question .
How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?

Because  those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.

What about the much more  important  implications of all that : the psychological mental implications , genius ?
Gotta go, ciao ,think about that : the psychological or mental that are irreducible to the physical : how did those mental and psychological environmental implications and traits get passed on to the next generations and beyond then ?


You'll have to be a little more specific about what those "mental psychological environmental implications and traits'' are in order for me to answer, unless you want a response that is as vague and ambiguous as the question. Which specific traits are you referring to?
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #902 on: 23/11/2013 21:17:13 »
... What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?

That's just more of DonQ's inflammatory troll-tactics, e.g.  ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=48746.msg424755#msg424755
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 21:19:20 by RD »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #903 on: 23/11/2013 21:25:21 »
... What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?

That's just more of DonQ's inflammatory troll-tactics, e.g.  ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=48746.msg424755#msg424755
My vote, if I had one, would be to ban such behavior. How many here at NSF would agree to this proposition? But of course, that question is off-topic so I will cease and desist. 
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 21:28:29 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #904 on: 23/11/2013 21:41:05 »
The findings in that video are  against the materialist mechanistic orthodox neo-Darwinian  "scientific world view " , i guess,   , that's why they are scientific "heresy " .
Not really. There certainly was a mainstream view at one time that the life experiences of an individual could not influence his/her heritable traits & characteristics because heritable traits are determined by DNA and it was thought DNA could not be modified this way. When evidence of mechanisms for the control of gene expression were discovered outside of DNA itself, the mainstream view changed; another layer of complexity was investigated. This is how science works; knowledge is provisional. There is no dogmatic materialist mechanistic orthodox neo-Darwinian  "scientific world view ", just the determination to stay with the best current model until new evidence gives good reason to replace or extend it. In this case the model was extended.

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Watch the video then .
I watched it when it was released 4 years ago on BBC 2. 'Horizon' has always been my favourite science program, although it's quality is patchy these days.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #905 on: 23/11/2013 21:45:24 »
What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?
It's an ad-hominem fallacy, a red-herring intended to delvaue your arguments by spurious or insulting characterisation. Where I come from, this is the hallmark of 'a nasty piece of work'.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #906 on: 23/11/2013 21:51:32 »
Is heredity exclusively material  genetical ?
Only you know what you mean by that...
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #907 on: 23/11/2013 22:12:22 »
My vote, if I had one, would be to ban such behavior. How many here at NSF would agree to this proposition?
I would. It's totally unnecessary.
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #908 on: 23/11/2013 22:31:05 »
My vote, if I had one, would be to ban such behavior. How many here at NSF would agree to this proposition?

Seconded. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already : he's been insulting , spammed, infringed-copyright, and evangelised his viewpoint ad-nauseam (800+ posts), (all against forum rules). He's more articulate than your average troll , but spending months in a science forum to preach anti-materialism and verbally-abusing those who contradict him is just trolling.
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 22:47:43 by RD »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #909 on: 23/11/2013 22:52:13 »
Yup; I don't think anyone should be banned for expressing an opinion, even if it's unsupported with argument or evidence, but I think the forum should enforce it's rules. That kind of insulting behaviour isn't acceptable - an experienced member can take it in their stride, but others may find it bullying. The copyright infringement postings are just illegal - I'd have thought the moderators would jump on it - the site can't afford to allow it.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #910 on: 24/11/2013 16:39:21 »
Is heredity exclusively material  genetical ?
Only you know what you mean by that...
[/quote]

Well, since heredity can also be epigenetic , not just genetic , the kind of epigenetics in the form of Lamarckian Darwinian environmental acquired characteristics neo-Darwinians did use to reject as such : environmental physiological adaptations that get inherited by the next generations and beyond , via switching on or switching off certain genes , then, it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might  get inherited in their turn somehow :
Take the jews or black people, for example , who used to be respectively persecuted or enslaved : the physiological egigenetic impacts of all that on those minorities might be not the only kind of   environmental inheritance they migt have  passed on to their next generations : the psychological or mental implications of the  past  persecutions  of jews and of black slavery might  have been  passed on to the jewish and black next generations and beyond  , who knows :
The psychological or mental implications that are irreducible to the physical thus .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #911 on: 24/11/2013 16:59:22 »
Epigenetics do show how humanity as a whole is interconnected , since the human species has one single origin , shows how the environment can affect genes as to pass on environmental acquired adaptations or traits : fascinating indeed: genes and environment are intertwined  .

The physiological hereditary epigenetic impacts on the next generations might be not the only kind of environmental inheritance   though :

Take the post-traumatic stress disorder due to tragic events , wars , natural disasters , famine and the like on humans : their environmental physiological heredetary effects might not be the only kind of environmental heredity : the psychological and mental impacts of those past events might be inherited in their turn by the next generations and beyond .

Take the physiological , mental and psychological impacts of tragic events anywhere in the world on any given pregnant women ...

Fascinating indeed .

In short :

The role of DNA or genes in heredity is way too exaggerated :
DNA is certainly not the 'architect " of life : see how all cells of our bodies do have the same DNA , and yet our body parts do have different forms : DNA alone cannot account for that : otherwise , it would be like saying that different buildings that were built from the same material , via the same work energy and via different plans  thus are the ...same .


The human genome project , for example , has failed in telling us why we are so different from our alleged closest "relatives " the chimps with which we do allegedly share the same origin .

The chimps do share more than 99% DNA material with us though , but that does not explain why we are so different from them, on the contrary .

Not to mention that even rice does have no less than 38 000 genes ,while humans do have only 23 000 genes : how come then that we are way more complex than rice then ? if genes or if DNA is what allegedly define us as human beings .

How come that even some plants have more genes than us ?

Homeobox genes , for example , are identical  in  fruit flies , in  humans and in other species , but yet they cannot account for the major form differences between humans and fruitflies ...let alone for their respective degrees of complexity .

In other words :

Physiology is not all what there is to humans or to any other living organisms for that matter , physiology is not all there is to heredity , epigenetics, morphogenesis and the rest  , the mental or psychological are the other most important and more fundamental part to them that 's irreducible to the physical .

There is a lot to say on the subject ,so, i am gonna just leave it at that then, for the time being at least .
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 17:03:18 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #912 on: 24/11/2013 17:07:29 »
What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?
It's an ad-hominem fallacy, a red-herring intended to delvaue your arguments by spurious or insulting characterisation. Where I come from, this is the hallmark of 'a nasty piece of work'.
[/quote]

Don't be as biased and subjective as to misinterpret the context of that reply of mine : see what did provoke that as to give form to it .
When someone just tries to score at my expense ,via raising an issue i am not qualified in ,instead of responding to the issues at hand , then, that's just a form of a wise guy or a wise girl silly behavior .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #913 on: 24/11/2013 17:24:37 »
The findings in that video are  against the materialist mechanistic orthodox neo-Darwinian  "scientific world view " , i guess,   , that's why they are scientific "heresy " .
Not really. There certainly was a mainstream view at one time that the life experiences of an individual could not influence his/her heritable traits & characteristics because heritable traits are determined by DNA and it was thought DNA could not be modified this way. When evidence of mechanisms for the control of gene expression were discovered outside of DNA itself, the mainstream view changed; another layer of complexity was investigated. This is how science works; knowledge is provisional. There is no dogmatic materialist mechanistic orthodox neo-Darwinian  "scientific world view ", just the determination to stay with the best current model until new evidence gives good reason to replace or extend it. In this case the model was extended.

Neo-Darwinian science orthodoxy was against any epigenetic environmental Lamarckian Darwinian form of heredity , that's a fact : that's why a paradigm shift then was necessary ;
Neo-Darwinism that was "born or saw the light " in the 1940's : the most prominent representative of the neo-Darwinian materialist "scientific world view " was / is ...Dawkins , for example , who painfully admitted  once on the subject , or in words to that same effect at least :

that he could think of few things that might devastate his world view , like the demonstrated need to go back to the traditionally Lamarckian view of evolution .

I see not why mental or psychological habits or adaptations to the environment , including the  enviromental implications  under the pressure of famine , tragic events , natural disasters , wars ...holocaust ....cannot be passed on to the next generations somehow : the mental or psychological that are irreducible to the physical : physiology is not all what there is to life , as genes or DNA are not ,since reality as a whole is not just material or physical as the false materialist naturalist reductionist neo-Darwinian conception of nature , and hence as  the false "scientific world view " has been assuming it to be , for so long now, thanks to materialism thus .

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Watch the video then .
I watched it when it was released 4 years ago on BBC 2. 'Horizon' has always been my favourite science program, although it's quality is patchy these days.

Good :
Can you exclude a priori the possibility that mental or psychological non-physical forms of environmental heredity can take place , at the light of that phsyiological environmental epigenetic heredetary process ?
The psychological or mental implications of past events such as wars , famine , tragic events , holocaust ...on the next generations is far more reaching than the phsyiological environemental impacts ,don't you think ?

The mental or psychological that are irreducible to the phsyical or to the material .
Think about that .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #914 on: 24/11/2013 17:59:54 »

Do you exclude a-priori any non-physical forms of causation ?


No, because that was never my argument to begin with. Again, if you require science to prove the nonexistence of things for which it has no evidence, you are requiring it to prove an infinite number of propositions an infinite number of times. And I didn't check today, either, for a rhinoceros in my basement.

Fact is : reality as a whole is not just material or physical, once again , and hence the materialist naturalist reductionist neo-Darwinian "scientific world view " is false = just a materialist false conception of nature which has absolutely nothing to do with science proper as such, a false materialist conception of nature that has been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view " without question, for so long now  : the false materialist conception of nature that's just a materialist world view, just a philosophy that dates back to the 19th century :
Science has never proved the materialist "fact ", or rather the materialist core belief assumption to be "true " that reality is just material or physical, as all sciences for that matter have been assuming reality to be,thanks to materialism .
Materialism does thus go beyond the scientific method and thus beyond science's realm ,as well as beyond science's jurisdiction by imposing its own false conception of nature as science , by pretending to known the nature of reality as a whole already ,while science should be free in investigating or exploring reality , no matter what the latter might turn out to be,instead of being imprisonned within the false materialist conception of nature  .
So, reality as a whole is not just material or physical , and hence phsyics and chemistry are just one single side of reality , the other one is the mental or the non-physical that's more fundamental than matter can ever be :
Which means that if science wants to try to describe and explain reality and hence make us understand the latter , then, science has no choice but to  try to deal with those 2 sides of reality empirically , or just with the parts of the physical -mental reality it can deal with empirically , as Sheldrake and others have been doing their own ways , for example .


See this on the subject :

Science must not remain confined within  the hands of the mainstream scientific priesthood , science must belong to the people : even Darwin himself was just an amateur scientist  who did not belong to any scientific priesthood or institutions  , that did not stop him from achieving what he did, even though he turned out to be  a materialist also , after all  :


7 Experiments that could change the world :


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Do you deny the fact that the mind of the observer does affect the observed .?


I agree with dlorde's past posts about your interpretation of those physics experiments.

I know epigenetics is a an environmental physiological process which switches certain genes on or off ,while passing that on to the next generations :

What i meant was : physiology 's interactions with the environment might be not the only kind of interaction in the epigenetic physiological sense : the mental as well as the psychological impacts of the environment in the forms of the implications of famine , wars , holocaust , tragic events ...on people, for example , might also be passed on to the next generations, since reality is not just material or physical, since the mental or psychological are irreducible thus to the physical or to the material .

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And how can the "physical " mind "that's " in the brain , the mental "that's just physics and chemistry"  thus , be able to tell us anything reliable about physics and chemistry = circular "reasoning " : the observed  does imply  the mental of the observer that's observing it , does it not ?

If you want to label some thing "the observed," it implies an observer. But I wouldn't agree that nothing existed before human beings were around to observe it.


All i meant is that the observed objective reality gets colored or clouded  changed  by the mind of the observer scientist , by misinterpreting it as to fit into the scientist's in question ...world view , as the false materialist "scientific world view " is a major evidence for such a fact  .
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instead of trying to play the silly wise girl, why don't you enlighten us about how physics and chemistry alone can explain "everything = nothing " then,while missing the mental side of reality , genius .

That was never my position. But I have explained why I think your concept of the immaterial is fundamentally irrational. see #875.

The materialist 'scientific world view " = the materialist false conception of nature is the irrational absurd surreal ...you name it ...one in fact = reality cannot be just material or physical : the non-physical nature of the mental, consciousness , .....are evidence enough for that obvious simple and undeniable fact .

The non-physical or the immaterial is thus just the other and more fundamental side of reality , and therefore phsyics and chemistry are just one single side of reality = to try to explain "everything =nothing " just in terms of physics and chemistry ,just via one single side of reality ,as the current "scientific world view " has been doing ,since the 19th century at least , thanks to materialism thus , is simply an unscientific thing to do , and a false attempt at that also .

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What's with the "playing the silly wise girl" comments?

See your   mocking silly wise girl comments regarding myself and chaos theory ....
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #915 on: 24/11/2013 18:14:32 »
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Answer my question .
How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?

Because  those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.

What about the much more  important  implications of all that : the psychological mental implications , genius ?
Gotta go, ciao ,think about that : the psychological or mental that are irreducible to the physical : how did those mental and psychological environmental implications and traits get passed on to the next generations and beyond then ?


You'll have to be a little more specific about what those "mental psychological environmental implications and traits'' are in order for me to answer, unless you want a response that is as vague and ambiguous as the question. Which specific traits are you referring to?

Do tragic events such as wars , famine , holocaust , natural disasters and the like not have psychological and mental implications on the people who were / are unfortunate enough to be experiencing them ?
The physiological enviromental inherited  effects of such and other enviromental implications might be  not the only kind of heredetary implications  .
The mental or psychological implications that are irreducible to the physical ,since reality cannot be just material or physical .

Lamarck must have been right when he used to say that acquired characteristics or traits , due to the adaptations and habits of living organisms to the environment might be passed on as well to the next generations .
In my opinion, the physiological environmental heredetary side of the pic is not the whole pic : the mental and psychological implications of and adaptations to wars , famine,holocaust , black slavery  ...with all the stress and the rest that go with that ,with all the diseases that go with that ,  might be inherited by the next generations as well .
Who knows .
In short :
 The physiological material inheritance , whether it is genetic or epigenetic ,  might  not be the only kind of inheritance : non-physical =mental and pyschological forms of inheritance might be occuring as well , in combination with the physical ones .
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 18:18:00 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #916 on: 24/11/2013 18:30:35 »
Folks :
It's pretty normal and logical that passionate discussions   such as these ones might get out of hand ,as they have been doing from time to time ,  simply because we are all humans , all too human, as Nietzsche used to say .

Some of the guys here just cannot tolerate to see their beloved false dogmatic materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " under attack, that's all : it all comes down to that in fact .

So, any kind of censorship , banning or materialist inquisitions on the subject won't make the fact go away that the current materialist mainstream "scientific world view " is obviously and undeniably ...false, all sciences for that matter must be liberated from : all sciences will in fact , simply because the end of materialism is nearer than ever , and simply because science has been superseding that outdated and false materialist world view in science ,that dates back to the 19th century , and that thus has been taken for granted for so long now, without question as the "scientific world view "  .

You're just fighting against windmills ,by trying  to apply your materialist inquisitions in relation to any attempt to challenge the authority of the false materialist world view = the false current materialist mainstream "scientific world view " .

You're just fighting in the name of a lost cause ,you're fighting an already lost battle or an already     lost materialist "holy war " and already lost materialist crusades  .

The medieval church's authority  has been just replaced by yet another dogmatic and irrational one : that of materialism in science : medieval christianity has been just replaced by another kind of dogmatic and irrational religion = materialism as a secular dogmatic and irrational religion in science , that has been taken for granted as the 'scientific world view " for so long now = history repeats itself in a worse form ,in the sense that an irrational dogmatic belief -secular-religion such as materialism has been pretending to be "scientific " ,has been pretending to be no-less than the "scientific world view " : that's the biggest and most unparalleled ultimate con or scam ever ,in all mankind's history so far at least : the worst kind of crime against all humanity , and that in no-less than in the name of ...science : wao .

Materialism that will not only be laughable mocked and ridiculed ,as it already is , by the next generations , but , it will also be ...despised , simply because materialism has been lying to the people, and has been deceiving them , in the name of no-less than science itself ,as ...science : that's way worse than what the medieval church could ever have done ,out of ...ignorance,fear .... .

Congratulations and condolences .

Take care .
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 18:54:04 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #917 on: 24/11/2013 18:36:29 »
... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might  get inherited in their turn somehow
Only if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #918 on: 24/11/2013 18:39:36 »
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... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might  get inherited in their turn somehow
Only if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.

What makes you think that that's the only option  : can you predict the future scientific discoveries on the subject already ?

Way to go, man .

Could Newton predict Einstein's relativity theory, for example, or beyond ?: just an analogy :
I think that science will be able to achieve a more major and revolutionary shift of meta-paradigm, not just a paradigm shift ,on the subject , hopefully .
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 18:42:25 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #919 on: 24/11/2013 19:13:36 »
... we are all humans , all too human, as Nietzsche used to say

You keep quoting people who have used psychotropic-drugs ,

Nietzsche ...
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Friedrich Nietzsche regularly used chloral hydrate in the years leading up to his nervous breakdown, according to Lou Salome and other associates. Whether the drug contributed to his insanity is a point of controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloral_hydrate#Notable_uses

Sheldrake ...
Quote from: youtube.com v=ZnXdyF_cSdg
"... for me probably the first jolt out of the belief that materialism could explain everything was taking LSD ... some acid trips I had ..."

The writings of people influenced drugs may be entertaining , but are unlikely to be an accurate account of reality.

Try occasionally reading something written by an author who hasnít had their mind blown by drugs.


... censorship , banning ...

Youíve made 800+ posts in this science-forum preaching a concept which is antithetical to science. During which you simply repeat the same words again and again spamishly:  "material*" & idiot* (or similar insult) scores of times , like an deranged obsessional person.

So youíve not been censored here , ( I doubt youíll find another science forum which will be as tolerant of your trolling).

If you are banned it will be for breaking forum rules, which you have done repeatedly, not as a form of censorship. Hereís 800+ pieces of evidence that you have not been censored in this forum Ö http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=36733

[ * = wildcard ]

« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 20:01:48 by RD »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #920 on: 24/11/2013 19:31:58 »
The role of DNA or genes in heredity is way too exaggerated :
DNA is certainly not the 'architect " of life : see how all cells of our bodies do have the same DNA , and yet our body parts do have different forms : DNA alone cannot account for that : otherwise , it would be like saying that different buildings that were built from the same material , via the same work energy and via different plans  thus are the ...same .
You should bear in mind that DNA in genes is the basic mechanism of heredity; epigenetics adds tags that can suppress the expression of certain genes. Like adding a margin note to skip a certain step or ingredient in a recipe. The recipe is still required - and it makes no sense to say the role of the recipe is way too exaggerated because some steps or ingredients are optional.

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The human genome project , for example , has failed in telling us why we are so different from our alleged closest "relatives " the chimps with which we do allegedly share the same origin .
That wasn't the objective of the human genome project. It also failed to tell us of the Philippines typhoon, or why the Mars Climate Orbiter probe failed. So what?

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The chimps do share more than 99% DNA material with us though , but that does not explain why we are so different from them, on the contrary .
It's the differences in the DNA in the genes that explain why we're so different. Some of the relevant genes have been identified, for example, a range of physical structure genes, such as relative limb lengths & ratios, face shape, hair structure, and importantly, some of the gene duplications associated with our relatively enlarged neocortex. So the human genome project has given us the raw data that has helped us explain what we have so far. You have to identify the genes involved in a particular trait before you can compare them inter and intra species.

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Not to mention that even rice does have no less than 38 000 genes ,while humans do have only 23 000 genes : how come then that we are way more complex than rice then ? if genes or if DNA is what allegedly define us as human beings .

How come that even some plants have more genes than us ?
Chromosomal DNA occasionally gets duplicated in various ways. Sometimes part of a chromosome, sometimes a whole chromosome, sometimes the whole genome. Check out Gene Duplication.

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Homeobox genes , for example , are identical  in  fruit flies , in  humans and in other species , but yet they cannot account for the major form differences between humans and fruitflies ...let alone for their respective degrees of complexity .
C'mon Don, this is basic genetics - homeobox genes make proteins that regulate cascades of other genes in anatomical development; small variations in these cascades can cause major anatomical differences. You can read about it here: homeobox genes.

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There is a lot to say on the subject ,so, i am gonna just leave it at that then, for the time being at least .
In the meantime, I recommend you learn something about it. There are plenty of good genetics tutorials and courses for free online.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #921 on: 24/11/2013 19:41:31 »
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since heredity can also be epigenetic... it'pretty logical that the psychcological or mental acquired traits or adaptations might  get inherited in their turn somehow
Only if such psychological or mental acquired traits or adaptations are a result of heritable changes in gene expression.
What makes you think that that's the only option  : can you predict the future scientific discoveries on the subject already ?
I was referring to your logic - it's only 'pretty logical' if you invoke the known mechanism (epigenetics), as no other mechanism is known. IOW the existence of epigenetics doesn't make an unknown other mechanism 'pretty logical'. Simples.
 

Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #922 on: 24/11/2013 19:45:57 »
Not to mention that even rice does have no less than 38 000 genes ,while humans do have only 23 000 genes : how come then that we are way more complex than rice then ? 

Most DNA is non-coding / currently redundant / "junk",  ( no designer, other than evolution, so coding is not efficient).
Many more generations of rice have occurred than generations of humans, so rice has accumulated more "junk" in its genome than humans ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-value_enigma#C-value_enigma_origin
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 22:19:30 by RD »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #923 on: 24/11/2013 20:19:14 »
dlorde :
Gotta go: I've spent way too much  time here already , i can hardly afford to be spending :
Just answer my core questions,concerning the mental or non-physical side of the 'equation " of the whole pic of reality ,you cannot just ignore , via some irrational belief of yours , the mental that's irreducible to and more fundamental than the physical , even at the level of inheritance thus,   instead of telling me about things i already know via those  wiki  links of yours ( I never liked wiki anyway : way too a medium for every idiot to writte in ) ,instead of telling me materialist magical bed time stories  fairy tales ,for kids  .
Thanks, appreciate indeed .

RD :

I am neither  interested in your materialist mechanical magic in science,nor in your silly wild speculations concerning my own person or sources , let alone in the rest  .
Should we totally discard any scientist or thinker who happens to have used drugs ? 
What kindda silly "reasoning " is this then ?
What makes you think i have been saying what i have been saying , thanks to some kind of drugs ? Get real .

Reminds me of the former Soviet Union's treatment of its own dissidents by the way , by branding them as insane or worse .
Thanks anyway .
To be honest , i never liked  you, and i still do not ,and i never will,  i must admit ,thanks to your nasty snitch behavior that does remind me of the thought police , that does remind me of all those kinds of inquisitions, including the materialist one .

Banning me won't make the simple obvious and undeniable fact go away that the current "scientific world view " is false .
Banning me won't keep me awake at night either .Who cares about that : there will always be dogmatic and irrational folks such as yourself .
Maybe , i should start looking for more intelligent audience , that's what i ought be doing in fact ,who knows ?
Gotta go, time up.
Ciao.
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 20:23:38 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline woolyhead

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #924 on: 24/11/2013 20:38:43 »
The mind is not in the brain, memory is not stored in the brain ...and hence qualia is not  in  the brain .
It's the other way around in fact : the brain is in the mind, and the body is in the mind  .
The non-physical mind does affect the physical brain ,and vice versa ,how ? : that remains to be seen ...
The mind is more fundamental than matter can ever be , so, the mind might be underlying the laws of physics , not the other way around .
Would you care to consider this: if the mind is composed of quantum computing plus output interfaces which cause the neurones to fire, it would seem to the neurone system that the thoughts and ideas etc had come from "elsewhere." It would seem to the regular brain that these thoughts were non physical.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #924 on: 24/11/2013 20:38:43 »

 

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