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Author Topic: How nature-image can flow through window glass?  (Read 3981 times)

Offline heikki

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How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« on: 21/07/2006 07:26:25 »
:)

Hi.

I open new conversation place of this my question which come out other forum conversation.

------
I think that next question is quite important to solve, then we maybe understand little bit more how nature works.


Backround of my question.

I make coupple years question from my self. How do i see? I have thinking that issue. I have eyes-brains-mind. When i close my eye-lids i can look memory-image which is store on my brains. And i dont see nature-image. When i open my eye-lids i can see nature-image. I i put paper front of my eye i cant see nature-image. So, that tells us that something must come to eyes and goes through eyes to brains and after that it can memorize-store to brain. I named this something to nature-image or object-view. So, all object has form. Form has matter-weight and size. Also form has colors. Example. Nice flower. When this flower is place where is no light, i cannot see flower. Nature, when sun shining, there is light. I can see flower. So, then must come object-image from flower to my eyes. Otherwice i cannot see it. So, what do i need to see flower? Flower who has form and it's colors then i need some light(sun, light-lamp, firecamp, etc.) and eyes-brains-my mind.


I devide this question two section of flowing image and one of my memory.

A.

What is hmm. how i say, material contruction of this flowing object-image, which comes to my eyes?


B.
How nature-image from some object can flow to my eyes through air-matter or window glass, but not example thin paper or woodplate or painted glass?


C.
How this image(s) store to my brain-cells?

I have thinking this issue and i think that we have lot of scient-work to do before we have answer of these. Example. How brain-cells store object-images to itselfs? Is there one memory-image in one cells or is there whole image-video on one brain-cell? Or etc.

My thought-feel is that we need much more smaller matter-particle theoryes than atom-theory is. Some kind of colors-particle theory and image-flowings theory, ex. what is speed(x)/travelldistance(y) curve of image or is image continous flowing process. And why images dont mix each other when flowing through air? etc. Why dont we see colors when they flow through air but we see it when it comes from object? Like light also. We dont see light, we see colors.

I dont have answer but i think that maybe scientist at future centuryes has some day answer.

:)


 

another_someone

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Re: How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« Reply #1 on: 21/07/2006 13:39:32 »
The simplest explanation (although one can look at it from many different interpretations) is that light is composed of a stream of photons.  When light (this stream of photons) hits an object, depending upon the type of object it hits, and the energy (colour) of the light, it can either pass straight through it (like light travels through glass, but not through brick; or like X-rays, which are also another form of light at very high energies, can pass through the soft tissue of the body, but not through bone); or it can be reflected off the object (like light is reflected in a mirror); or it can be converted into another form of energy (like when you use a magnifying glass to concentrate light to create enough heat to start a small fire).

When something gets hot, it tends to start giving off photons (like a hot Sun giving off light).  This light then reaches the Earth, and will then cause some things to warm up, but other things will just reflect some or all of the light.  If a flower reflects blue light but absorbs the red light, then the red light will make a flower a little warmer, but you will see the blue light that is reflected from the flower as being the colour of the flower.

When the light reaches your eyes, it will go to the back of the eyes, and different receptors in your eye will convert different colours into electrical signals, so that when you see a blue flower, the blue light will be captured and converted into electrical signals by those receptors in your eyes that capture only blue light, but that light will be ignored by the receptors that only capture red light or green light.  When you see the green leaves of the plant, the light reflected from the leaves will be captured by the receptors in your eye that convert green light, but will be ignored by the receptors that only capture red or blue light.  So, depending upon which receptors in your eye are converting the light energy into electrical impulses, the brain can tell whether the light it receives is more red, or more blue, or more green.

Since the human skin either absorbs (converts to heat) or reflects most light, therefore very little light passes through it, and thus when you close your eyelids, most of the light (the stream of photons) that would have entered your eye is either converted into heat by the skin in your eyelid, or is bounced straight back out again, but very little of it can pass through your eyelids to reach your eyes.



George
 

Offline heikki

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Re: How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« Reply #2 on: 22/07/2006 07:09:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

The simplest explanation (although one can look at it from many different interpretations) is that light is composed of a stream of photons.  When light (this stream of photons) hits an object, depending upon the type of object it hits, and the energy (colour) of the light, it can either pass straight through it (like light travels through glass, but not through brick; or like X-rays, which are also another form of light at very high energies, can pass through the soft tissue of the body, but not through bone); or it can be reflected off the object (like light is reflected in a mirror); or it can be converted into another form of energy (like when you use a magnifying glass to concentrate light to create enough heat to start a small fire).


George




:)

Stream of photon?

Photon means some kind of matter-particle, small size.

Is this photon what kind of matter-form?

How or what kind different type is different color-photons forms?

Flower has own colors.

When light-photons and flowers-"colors-photons" meet(or join or hit) each other and this result fly my eye then i can see flower?

Or, do flower send that colors-photons to my eye without mixed light-photons by only using light-photons some kind roadstyle?


:)

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone



When something gets hot, it tends to start giving off photons (like a hot Sun giving off light).  This light then reaches the Earth, and will then cause some things to warm up, but other things will just reflect some or all of the light.  If a flower reflects blue light but absorbs the red light, then the red light will make a flower a little warmer, but you will see the blue light that is reflected from the flower as being the colour of the flower.



George




:)
When outside temperature is example -20C still all colors like my clothes or nature greens or etc. looks like their color is. Green is green, blue is blue, yellow is yellow, orange is orange, red is red.

I have a cap and it is green. It is green at temperature-scale -40C to +30C. I have also other caps and clothes and things, like my byciccle. There is lot of different colors and all has same color of that temperature-scale.

When sun is shining and i put green plastic to my window my room looks like there is green inside everywhere. My clothes and furniture looks little bit green-style colored. How this is possible, i think? Then i get the aswer. When light comes to my room it take also green-colors-photons with it from that green plastic and push it to my room.
 
What i mean. I mean that flower itself has color-matter-particles to in it. And it send this color-information to round of it only if there is light-photons round of it. And i mean that these colors-particles can maybe fly only with light or maybe it can fly without light?

But, how this color-photons can fly through something(air, glass, air-matter, pure water) so that object form is like object form is?
Light itselfs cannot do that (like we can notice when we use mirror and reflect sun-light by using square-mirrortype. Near mirror light is like mirror, square-form, but some distances mirrored light changed and comes to be round-form.
Object color-image-form dont do that, it stay form like object form is.

:)

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone



When the light reaches your eyes, it will go to the back of the eyes, and different receptors in your eye will convert different colours into electrical signals, so that when you see a blue flower, the blue light will be captured and converted into electrical signals by those receptors in your eyes that capture only blue light, but that light will be ignored by the receptors that only capture red light or green light. When you see the green leaves of the plant, the light reflected from the leaves will be captured by the receptors in your eye that convert green light, but will be ignored by the receptors that only capture red or blue light. So, depending upon which receptors in your eye are converting the light energy into electrical impulses, the brain can tell whether the light it receives is more red, or more blue, or more green.



George





:)

My thought is that back of eye is not that kind of function which can select different colors and there happend some kind of colors/electric transformation.

What is my thoughts?

I think that color-image-particle-stream which fly to my eye-back goes through these back-sensors-tubes in to my braincells. And then my braincells store these information.


Mainly im not so interesting that how many objects color-images can
fly through air and without mixed each other or what is the speed of this process,
but most important thing is that how one brain-cell can store this color-particle-flowing-stream so that when i use my memory i can memorice memoryes.

My parents are died but still i can remember clearly their faces and many other things. All these things and happens has come throught my eye to my brain-memory-cells and stored there.

Why i'm so interesting of this area?

Because i think that many todays un-nature madet nutrition-things and also wave-vibration (radiosignals) cause something to this brain memory-process-system, because nutrition-particles goes to brains also and wave-vibration vibrate the brain-cells at atom-particle-size level.

My thought is that brain-cells dont kept information like some kind of wave-vibration method. I think that brain-cells store image-information by using color-particles and store it like lego-puzzle.

But, how one brain-cell exactly work?

It his image-store much smaller physical size than example gene-information?

:)
 

another_someone

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Re: How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« Reply #3 on: 22/07/2006 11:31:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by heikki
Stream of photon?

Photon means some kind of matter-particle, small size.

Is this photon what kind of matter-form?



Yes, photon is a kind of matter but not atomic matter.

quote:

How or what kind different type is different color-photons forms?

Flower has own colors.

When light-photons and flowers-"colors-photons" meet(or join or hit) each other and this result fly my eye then i can see flower?

Or, do flower send that colors-photons to my eye without mixed light-photons by only using light-photons some kind roadstyle?



It is not strictly speaking true that a flower has its own colour it reflects the colours of the light it receives, or more precisely, it reflects only some of the colours it receives.

When you look at a scene under an orange sodium street light (in the absence of any daylight, or other lights source), everything looks like shades of orange or black, you cannot see the greens and blues in the scene around you, because there is no green and blue light for the scene to reflect.

When you look at a blue flower, it is only blue because the sunlight falling on it has many colours within it, but the flower will only reflect the blue light.  If there was no blue light in the sunlight, then the flower would look black.

When you look at a red flower, it is only blue because the sunlight falling on it has many colours within it, but the flower will only reflect the red light.  If there was no red light in the sunlight, then the flower would look black.


quote:

When outside temperature is example -20C still all colors like my clothes or nature greens or etc. looks like their color is. Green is green, blue is blue, yellow is yellow, orange is orange, red is red.

I have a cap and it is green. It is green at temperature-scale -40C to +30C. I have also other caps and clothes and things, like my byciccle. There is lot of different colors and all has same color of that temperature-scale.



But, as I said, the light you see is not emitted from the leaves, or your clothing (unless you happen to have light bulbs attached to your clothing) the light you see comes from the Sun, and the surface temperature of the Sun is around 6500 kelvin the leaves, flowers, clothing, etc. are merely reflecting some of this light.

quote:

What i mean. I mean that flower itself has color-matter-particles to in it. And it send this color-information to round of it only if there is light-photons round of it. And i mean that these colors-particles can maybe fly only with light or maybe it can fly without light?



OK, I will try and give you a very crude analogy regarding the colour information of something.

Photons (of whatever colours) can only be created by hot objects, like the Sun.  Depending on the temperature, it will emit photons of different colours.

If we think of the Sun as creating trains of photons, these trains have many colours.

The flower then acts like a signalman, and it looks at the colour of the train, and certain colours of trains it will stop, so they can go no further; while other colours it will not allow in, but will send away, and those are the colours of trains that will go to your eye, so that your eye's see those colours that have not been stopped by the flower.  The flower has not produced any of the trains, it has merely decided which ones to send where.  If there are no trains produced, there will be no trains to send out so when the Sun does not shine, you cannot tell the colour of a flower.

quote:

But, how this color-photons can fly through something(air, glass, air-matter, pure water) so that object form is like object form is?
Light itselfs cannot do that (like we can notice when we use mirror and reflect sun-light by using square-mirrortype. Near mirror light is like mirror, square-form, but some distances mirrored light changed and comes to be round-form.
Object color-image-form dont do that, it stay form like object form is.



Sorry, I have no idea what you mean about mirrors changing shape?

Any object, when it is too far away to see distinctly, will seem blurred, and you cannot see its shape distinctly but what do you believe is different about a mirror in that regard?

quote:

My thought is that back of eye is not that kind of function which can select different colors and there happend some kind of colors/electric transformation.

What is my thoughts?

I think that color-image-particle-stream which fly to my eye-back goes through these back-sensors-tubes in to my braincells. And then my braincells store these information.



Why would you think that, when all the evidence is to the contrary.

Not only is the physical evidence (from dissections of human and animal eyes) providing contrary evidence, but even the way people store incomplete (and often incorrect) information about a scene they thing they have witnessed (which is why witness reports at scenes of crime are notoriously unreliable) would clearly indicate that the brain does not store any kind of photographic image of a scene.

quote:

Mainly im not so interesting that how many objects color-images can
fly through air and without mixed each other or what is the speed of this process,
but most important thing is that how one brain-cell can store this color-particle-flowing-stream so that when i use my memory i can memorice memoryes.

My parents are died but still i can remember clearly their faces and many other things. All these things and happens has come throught my eye to my brain-memory-cells and stored there.



The exact process of laying down memories still has many unanswered questions.  It clearly happens in a number of stages, where memories are first stored in a short term memory storage, and then after a short while are then stored again in long term form.

Memory is not stored in individual neurons, but in the structure of the collection of neurons (probably in the way the are connected together).  My own suspicion is that any one memory is shared amongst many neuron connections, so that if one neuron dies (and neurons are constantly dying) there will not be a total loss of the memory.

http://www.memorylossonline.com/glossary/memory.html
quote:

Memory refers to the storage, retention and recall of information including past experiences, knowledge and thoughts. Memory for specific information can vary greatly according to the individual and the individual's state of mind. It can also vary according to the content of the information itself; thus information which is novel or exciting tends to be better remembered than information which is uninteresting or ordinary. Failure of memory can normally result from failure to adequately store the memory in the first place, failure to retain the information (forgetting), and failure to retrieve the information later.
The precise biological mechanisms of memory are not fully understood, but most scientists believe that memory results from changes in connections or connection strengths between neurons in the brain. One possible mechanism is long-term potentiation (LTP). Roughly stated, LTP refers to a process whereby if two neurons are usually active together, the connection between them will be strengthened; over time, this means that activity in one neuron will tend to produce activity in the other neuron.
Categories of Memory Systems

Psychologists and memory researchers often divide memory into categories defined by the duration for which the memory is expected to last.
Sensory memory refers to the fact that, after experiencing a stimulus, information about that stimulus is briefly held in memory in the exact form it was received, until it can be further processed. Typically, sensory memories may last only a few seconds before decaying -- or being overwritten by new, incoming information. But, while they last, sensory memories contains detailed information: almost like an internal "copy" of the stimulus, in perfect detail. For example, psychologists have assumed that there is a memory area (called a "buffer") where incoming visual information is stored as a picture or icon. This is sometimes called iconic memory. While visual information remains in iconic memory, an individual can answer detailed questions, such as what is the third row of numbers in a numerical display. Psychologists have assumed that there is also an echoic memory for auditory information (stored as an echo) and other buffers for information related to the other senses: taste, smell and touch.
Short-term memory refers to memories which last for a few minutes. Unlike sensory memory, which is stored in the exact form it was experienced, short-term memory has received some processing; thus, "A" is stored not as a visual stimulus, but as an abstract concept of the letter "A". Short-term memory is of limited capacity, usually 5-9 items ("7-plus-or-minus-two"). Beyond this capacity, new information can "bump" out other items from short-term memory. This is one form of forgetting. Objects in short-term memory can be of indefinite complexity: thus short-term memory can hold several numbers, or several words, or several complex concepts simultaneously. Thus, while an individual may only be able to remember seven random digits, it may be possible to remember more digits if they are "chunked" into meaningful objects: thus, "1776-2001-1941" represents twelve separate digits -- well beyond most people's capacity -- but only three easily-remembered chunks.
Items can be maintained indefinitely in short-term memory by rehearsal: e.g. by repeating the information over and over again. An example would be a seven-digit phone number, which is maintained in short-term memory by repetition until the number is dialed, and then fades from short-term memory once the conversation starts. Repetition may also increase the probability that items in short-term memory will enter permanent storage in long-term memory.
Intermediate-term or working memory is sometimes considered a synonym for short-term memory. However, memory researchers often consider this a specialized term referring for information about the current task. Thus, even though a specific phone number may occupy short-term memory, working memory contains the information that lets you remember that you are in the process of phoning the gas company to complain about a recent billing error.
Long-term memory is memory that lasts for years or longer. It contains everything we know about the world, including semantic and factual information as well as autobiographical experience. In general, long-term memory is organized so that it is easy to reach a stored item by a number of routes. For example, the concept "umbrella" may be retrieved by seeing an umbrella, experiencing a rainstorm, hearing the words to the song "Let a smile be your umbrella," and so on. Retrieval of an item also facilitates other related items: so that retrieving information about a cat can lead to retrieval of information about dogs, lions, specific instances of cats (Grandmother's tabby), the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland, and so on.
NOTE: Clinicians (e.g. neurologists) often use a slightly different classification, in which short-term memory is memory for events which occurred recently (e.g. a few days or weeks ago) and long-term memory is memory for events which occurred in the distant past (e.g. childhood).
Kinds of Long-term Memory

There are several different ways to classify long-term memories according to their content.
Declarative memory is a term for information which is available to conscious recollection and verbal retrieval (i.e., it can be "declared"). Two subclasses of declarative memory are episodic memory, which is autobiographical information, and semantic memory, which is factual information about the world (vocabulary items, knowledge of what a hammer is used for, memory of multiplication tables, etc.).
Brain Structures involved in Long-Term Memory

Most types of memory appear to be stored in the cortex. Different areas of cortex specialize in different kinds of information, so that visual information about the Statue of Liberty may be stored in one location (e.g., the inferior temporal cortex), while information about its associations to liberty and immigration might be stored in another (e.g., the frontal cortex). High linkage between these two areas means that seeing a picture of the Statue of Liberty can retrieve memory about its associations. At the same time, damage to specific areas of cortex can produce specific memory deficits. For example, damage to a specific region within the temporal lobe can produce a memory deficit in which the patient loses knowledge about "living things" (e.g. dogs, lions, birds) but maintains knowledge about other categories (e.g. inanimate objects such as furniture and utensils).
Formation of new declarative memories depends on the hippocampus and related structures in the medial temporal lobe. When these structures are damaged, a condition of anterograde amnesia can result, in which older declarative memories are largely spared, but few if any new declarative memories are acquired. At this point, the process whereby the hippocampus and other medial temporal lobe structures contribute to long-term memory formation is still incompletely understood. Some researchers believe that the hippocampus acts as a temporary store for new information, which is then gradually transferred to permanent storage in the cortex. Other researchers believe that the hippocampus never actually stores information itself, but is needed by the cortex in the process of developing new memories.
Another important structure is the amygdala, which lies near the hippocampus in the medial temporal lobes. The amygdala is critically involved in emotional memory; an individual with damage to the amygdala may remember the details of a traumatic (or joyful) event but not the emotional content of that event.
Pathology of Memory

Memory can be impaired by various injuries and diseases. Damage to the medial temporal lobe and hippocampus can devastate the ability to acquire new declarative memory; damage to the storage areas in cortex can disrupt retrieval of old memories and interfere with acquisition of new memories -- simply because there is nowhere to put them.
Another critical factor is attention. Items are more likely to be remembered if they are attended to in the first place; this is why novel or exciting items are more likely to be remembered than dull or ordinary ones. Damage to the frontal lobes, which disrupts attention, may affect memory.
Various psychiatric disorders such as paranoia and schizophrenia may affect memory adversely, either by disrupting attention or by disrupting the biological bases of memory, or both.
Alzheimer's disease causes memory impairments from the early stages, probably because of cell death in the basal forebrain, an area that produces the chemical acetylcholine which facilitates plasticity (learning). Recent memories tend to be poorly remembered, while there may be good memory for long-ago events.
Other conditions such as viral infections, depression and use of drugs (including medication) can affect memory by disrupting brain chemicals as well.
Although a mild memory impairment is a common feature of old age, there is currently much debate over whether memory loss is inevitable with aging, or whether it is a by-product of conditions (such as Alzheimer's disease and cardiovascular disease) which are more common in old age than in youth. (See also: Age-associated Memory Impairment.)







George
 

Offline heikki

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Re: How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« Reply #4 on: 22/07/2006 14:01:18 »
Quote
Originally posted by another_someone

It is not strictly speaking true that a flower has its own colour it reflects the colours of the light it receives, or more precisely, it reflects only some of the colours it receives.

When you look at a blue flower, it is only blue because the sunlight falling on it has many colours within it, but the flower will only reflect the blue light.  

But, as I said, the light you see is not emitted from the leaves, or your clothing (unless you happen to have light bulbs attached to your clothing) the light you see comes from the Sun, and the surface temperature of the Sun is around 6500 kelvin the leaves, flowers, clothing, etc. are merely reflecting some of this light.

Photons (of whatever colours) can only be created by hot objects, like the Sun.  Depending on the temperature, it will emit photons of different colours.

The flower has not produced any of the trains, it has merely decided which ones to send where.  If there are no trains produced, there will be no trains to send out so when the Sun does not shine, you cannot tell the colour of a flower.


Any object, when it is too far away to see distinctly, will seem blurred, and you cannot see its shape distinctly but what do you believe is different about a mirror in that regard?

Why would you think that, when all the evidence is to the contrary.

Not only is the physical evidence (from dissections of human and animal eyes) providing contrary evidence, but even the way people store incomplete (and often incorrect) information about a scene they thing they have witnessed (which is why witness reports at scenes of crime are notoriously unreliable) would clearly indicate that the brain does not store any kind of photographic image of a scene.

Quote

:)

Main points what i mean.

1. Colors is part of object.

2. Do see colors need also light.

3. Light itself dont keep inside any kind of colors.

3. Light source can be sun, fire, lamp, etc.

4. Color-source can be flower, car, cap, etc. and also lightsource.
( Example. glowworm can made light and colors.)

5. I think that Kelvin-degree is not image of temperature it is some way only image color-scale.

What i think. One big scient error was happening when was joined Kelvin to celcius and fahrenheit degrees. And madet decicion that Kelvin-degree is some how image of object temperature. I think that it is not. It is only to scale-method to separate different colors.

(Example. Cap example. Also if heat ironmetal. It's temperature rise 500C and iron start to be red, then it's Kelvin-scale is then over about 5000K but temperature of this iron is only 500C. Also when heating more iron comes yellow and white, like sun-color almost. Temperature rise 700-1000C.

If i look my monitor and this text-box. I see many colors.  I can scaled these color to Kelvin-scale. But my computer lcd-panel temperature is still about +30C.

Therefore my thoughts is that all this stuff, where is joined together Kelvin-temperature, planck-constant, and 0-point, -273C is scintifical error. And this error borns only because 19-ct. happendt that somebody understand wrong think that Kelvin-scale is real temperature scale idea. Which is not, may opinion is that it is only color-scale-idea.

Also this eye-function. My thought is that eye-back dont has three types reflectors (red-green-blue) because this 3-color idea basic is only crt-color tube idea to made color images. But that means that must develope new multicolor idea, like nature is, to understand nature colors better.

I dont see any reasons why light itselfs has all colors-idea and object dont has. Because nature shows it different way. We can see many colors and these colors are part of objects. Light only made possibility to see these colors. So i mean that when we see object colors it need object own colors+light.

Example.
Air-matter-layer on the earth-ball.

Night. No clouds. Sun is shining opposite earth-ball.
- I can see many stars and moon clearly also. Satellites shining some time also. Some times aurora colors.

Daylight. No clouds. Sun is shining directly.
- I can see mainly blue?
Why?
My thougt is that because air-matter-layer keep inside blue-color-matter-particles, ( not side by side but maybe one or few color-particle/cubemeter) and air-layer is bold that is the reason why sky is blue at daylight.

And the evening and morning, there is other color-particles near earth-surface and we see orange and etc.

But, this is not my main issue.

Main question is still that how color-image can flow or fly through some type matter and dont other type matter? Without mixed also.

And how these images can stored to our brains?

This conversation comes too mixed because our texts are too long and many things mix together and we dont have possibility to use drawings to help this conversation.

:)
« Last Edit: 22/07/2006 14:04:00 by heikki »
 

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Re: How nature-image can flow through window glass?
« Reply #4 on: 22/07/2006 14:01:18 »

 

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