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Offline 4getmenot

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Religion
« on: 25/07/2006 17:00:08 »
When i was younger...I was on a search for what religion to believe in or follow...I had read all the bibles and found myself even more confused, so i went to talk to a priest in order to get some answers...One question that really confused me was that..in the bible it says that we are all brothers and sisters and we ALLLLL created from Adam and Eve right??? i was confused because if that were true then that had to mean that we all got here because of incest, yet incest is supposed to be nasty and illegal in most states...anyway, i asked this to the priest and he kicked me out of the church...needless to say i did not go back to THAT catholic church again....the bible has been written and rewritten sooo many times that there is only left what some man's impression of things were in it now.....i also wondered this...if we are all gods children why are thre so many religions?  why does one religion forbid you practicing another? if there is only one god then why so many different beliefs? what religion IS THE CORRECT ONE??????? DOES IT MEAN IF U ACCIDENTALLY PICK THE WRONG RELIGION U WILL BE WRONG IN THE END??

k


 

Offline gecko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #1 on: 25/07/2006 17:21:31 »
no. its all nonsense. do you see the frustration its causing you? do yourself a favor and stick to logical thought and tough reasoning. humankind can hopefully get rid of this disasterous thing called religion in a few centuries time.

as for morals, aesops fables covered it all, and didnt pretend to be beyond humanity.
 

another_someone

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Re: Religion
« Reply #2 on: 25/07/2006 17:48:45 »
Religion covers many different things for many people.

You first have to separate religion from belief.  Traditionally, the role of religion was as much about belonging than it was about believing and even today, that is a substantial part of it.

This is much clearer in the older religions (such as Judaism, or Hinduism; than it is in the newer religions such a Christianity and Islam although it still remains substantially true even for the newer religions.

If you look at Judaism, it regards the children of Abraham as the chosen people of God.  It assumes that God gave the children of Abraham the right to live in Israel.  Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not a prosthetising religion they are not looking to make converts they are merely trying to create a national identity for themselves.

In the days before the nation State, religion was the major social grouping one belonged to.  Thus, it follows that changing allegiance from one religion to another amounted to treason, rather like an American switching their allegiance to an enemy country.

Ofcourse, being American means that you assume certain common values, values about democracy, values about the role of women in society, etc.  So too, belonging to a religion carries with it certain social values that belong to that religion.

In many ways, traditionally it did not matter too much whether someone actually believed in God as such, but what did matter was that they went to Church each week, since Church was a common communal function, and it gave the parish priest an opportunity to ensure that all of his parishioners were adhering to the common religious doctrine.

Even today, if one looks to the situation in places like Northern Ireland, where Protestants and Catholics are in a struggle with each other (not as violent as it was a few decades ago, but still a lot of tension there).  Protestant and Catholics go to different churches, but their disagreement is not about what they believe in (mostly the differences there don't really matter very much to either), what matters is that they belong to two different communities, and the churches they attend merely form the focus of those communities.



George
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Religion
« Reply #3 on: 26/07/2006 08:03:57 »
I was never really interested in answering the question on Seth having a wife.

But there are thick book in big christian bookshops answering all such questions.

Know that life is eternal and the creator is saviour and recreator. Jesus. He made a way from sin to justice and death to life, in that central christian image, the cross.

Titanscape
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: Religion
« Reply #4 on: 26/07/2006 11:27:40 »
Excellent answer!  To the point as for me as well it is not a social status....I look at it as a personal relationship...if you are condemned, ask yourself is that love?  There are other places who will welcome you in and not condemn you and ostracize you out the door...just because you asked questions...wow, amazing

"Lo" Loretta
 

Offline 4getmenot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #5 on: 27/07/2006 05:10:39 »
that's what i thoaght...why kick someone out for asking...especially if it is a legitimate question....I used to be afraid of right or wrong choices in religion...like what if i worshiped in the wrong one type thing....Personally now all i have been able to come up with that makes me feel any kind of comfort pertaining to that is this....I take all the good from each religion and combine them into one within myself and only hope that in the end i made the "right"choice by not "claiming" ANY certain religion...but it i think will always remain in my thaughts as to if of course if it were right to do so.....I mean, if there is only ONE god then all of them should be right ...or...wrong, right??

k
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Religion
« Reply #6 on: 27/07/2006 11:35:59 »
Some gods are unclean, commanding or permitting unclean things. As Jesus said were unclean, so they are not Jesus. There were gods such as Apollo who ascended into heaven... Jesus really did all the things in their mythology.

Some gods are man made, the "Unknown God" in Atcs was said to be Jesus.

Titanscape
 

Offline Acoustic Samurai

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Re: Religion
« Reply #7 on: 28/07/2006 02:03:53 »
I agree with gecko, aesops fables pretty much covered all the morals that are necessary for me to live a meaningful and fullfilling life without completely submitting to a certain doctrine of religion plus all the stereotypes that go along with denominations. Its all the great principles and moral guidelines, minus the "controversial" subjects that come along with that package deal we call religion.
Besides, I see religion used for more pridefull purposes such as the comfort of belonging to a community and establishing or continuing a family's tradition. I read in the newspaper the other day about a christian softball game ending in a bloody fight involving baseball bats and such, which saddened me considering that the players attended the same denomination of church that I've been required to attend.

-Timmy-

"Science Rules"

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« Last Edit: 28/07/2006 02:09:35 by Acoustic Samurai »
 

Offline 4getmenot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #8 on: 28/07/2006 05:30:46 »
that is so true, and what i am refering to....if someone is so religious how can they justify such acts? I have experienced even a type of predjudice when ealing with  certain individuals to a point where they start to put you down for not belonging to thier religion or practice thier ways...it is a total turn off...

k
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Religion
« Reply #9 on: 26/07/2006 08:03:57 »
I was never really interested in answering the question on Seth having a wife.

But there are thick book in big christian bookshops answering all such questions.

Know that life is eternal and the creator is saviour and recreator. Jesus. He made a way from sin to justice and death to life, in that central christian image, the cross.

Titanscape
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: Religion
« Reply #10 on: 26/07/2006 11:27:40 »
Excellent answer!  To the point as for me as well it is not a social status....I look at it as a personal relationship...if you are condemned, ask yourself is that love?  There are other places who will welcome you in and not condemn you and ostracize you out the door...just because you asked questions...wow, amazing

"Lo" Loretta
 

Offline 4getmenot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #11 on: 27/07/2006 05:10:39 »
that's what i thoaght...why kick someone out for asking...especially if it is a legitimate question....I used to be afraid of right or wrong choices in religion...like what if i worshiped in the wrong one type thing....Personally now all i have been able to come up with that makes me feel any kind of comfort pertaining to that is this....I take all the good from each religion and combine them into one within myself and only hope that in the end i made the "right"choice by not "claiming" ANY certain religion...but it i think will always remain in my thaughts as to if of course if it were right to do so.....I mean, if there is only ONE god then all of them should be right ...or...wrong, right??

k
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Religion
« Reply #12 on: 27/07/2006 11:35:59 »
Some gods are unclean, commanding or permitting unclean things. As Jesus said were unclean, so they are not Jesus. There were gods such as Apollo who ascended into heaven... Jesus really did all the things in their mythology.

Some gods are man made, the "Unknown God" in Atcs was said to be Jesus.

Titanscape
 

Offline Acoustic Samurai

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Re: Religion
« Reply #13 on: 28/07/2006 02:03:53 »
I agree with gecko, aesops fables pretty much covered all the morals that are necessary for me to live a meaningful and fullfilling life without completely submitting to a certain doctrine of religion plus all the stereotypes that go along with denominations. Its all the great principles and moral guidelines, minus the "controversial" subjects that come along with that package deal we call religion.
Besides, I see religion used for more pridefull purposes such as the comfort of belonging to a community and establishing or continuing a family's tradition. I read in the newspaper the other day about a christian softball game ending in a bloody fight involving baseball bats and such, which saddened me considering that the players attended the same denomination of church that I've been required to attend.

-Timmy-

"Science Rules"

            Bill Nye The    
             Science Guy
« Last Edit: 28/07/2006 02:09:35 by Acoustic Samurai »
 

Offline 4getmenot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #14 on: 28/07/2006 05:30:46 »
that is so true, and what i am refering to....if someone is so religious how can they justify such acts? I have experienced even a type of predjudice when ealing with  certain individuals to a point where they start to put you down for not belonging to thier religion or practice thier ways...it is a total turn off...

k
 

Online phyti

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Re: Religion
« Reply #15 on: 01/08/2006 06:11:59 »
quote by 4getmenot:
One question that really confused me was that..in the bible it says that we are all brothers and sisters and we ALLLLL created from Adam and Eve right??? i was confused because if that were true then that had to mean that we all got here because of incest, yet incest is supposed to be nasty and illegal in most states...anyway,  

reply:
If brothers marrying sisters was bad then, why would their creator ask them to be fruitful and multiply?
The sinful connotation is society's view, and the illegality is also society's view but mostly for health reasons.
Adam and Eve had offspring after they were removed from the garden, therefore the family was in a degenerative state, healthwise, but not sufficient to be a health issue. This is shown by Adams lifespan of over 900 years.
Modern day humans have reached such a degree of degeneration that inter-family marriage is too risky.
 
quote by 4getmenot:
the bible has been written and rewritten sooo many times that there is only left what some man's impression of things were in it now

reply:
The bible itself tells you it was written under inspiration by the creator. If its purpose is a revelation to humanity about things they need to know, then surely he would assure its preservation. A thorough examination shows it to be consistent from beginning to end, and is essentially unchanged when compared to the oldest manuscripts.

quote by 4getmenot:
i also wondered this...if we are all gods children why are thre so many religions? why does one religion forbid you practicing another? if there is only one god then why so many different beliefs?

reply:
Do you think a caring parent would give each child a different set of values to live by?
If you ask different people about religion, you get differnt answers, and that is your clue.
People have interpreted the bible to suit their own preferences, like designer clothes, whatever is comfortable.
When the differences are extreme, and lead to witchhunts, crusades, and wars, then religion turns people away.
Even non-religious people have a sense of morality.





 

Offline Acoustic Samurai

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Re: Religion
« Reply #16 on: 01/08/2006 21:08:59 »
Listen to this. How do you keep a child from misbehaving? You threaten to punish him, and more times that not it works because that child is afraid that you till take something away that they enjoy. We use fear to control. Its evident in our government, schools and everyday parenting. Now if we wanted to set guidelines to control a society or even a large group of people you have to find something that everyone fears. And that universal fear is the fear of the unknown, or put plainer the fear of death and the uncertainty of life after death, or just a void of nothingness. If you somehow convince a group of people that if they follow certain rules, testaments, lifestyles that they will be guaranteed something that is "uncertain". It seems like the most effective way to govern a populous, except for the few exceptions such as atheists and agnostics. And they are usually condemmed, maybe not physically, but convinced to the "society" that they are doomed for their unbelief. I'm honestly not trying to "explain" religion, it was just an interesting thought i had.

And to set the record straight, I am a faithful christian, and not an atheist or agnostic trying to disprove God or anything..

-Timmy-

"Science Rules"

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another_someone

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Re: Religion
« Reply #17 on: 01/08/2006 22:11:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by Acoustic Samurai
Listen to this. How do you keep a child from misbehaving? You threaten to punish him, and more times that not it works because that child is afraid that you till take something away that they enjoy. We use fear to control. Its evident in our government, schools and everyday parenting. Now if we wanted to set guidelines to control a society or even a large group of people you have to find something that everyone fears. And that universal fear is the fear of the unknown, or put plainer the fear of death and the uncertainty of life after death, or just a void of nothingness. If you somehow convince a group of people that if they follow certain rules, testaments, lifestyles that they will be guaranteed something that is "uncertain". It seems like the most effective way to govern a populous, except for the few exceptions such as atheists and agnostics. And they are usually condemmed, maybe not physically, but convinced to the "society" that they are doomed for their unbelief. I'm honestly not trying to "explain" religion, it was just an interesting thought i had.



I think it is an error in the understanding of human kind to believe that fear alone can control human behaviour.  This is true whether one talks about parent/child relationships, or the relationship between Government and citizen (the two are close analogies anyway).

Fear creates stress, and certainly one can use short term stress to obtain obedience.  The problem is that chronic stress is very different from short term stress.  Chronic fear does not lead to increased obedience, but rather to increased emotional paralysis and a resignation to the inevitable (this is why constantly ratcheting up the penal code does not reduce criminality, but more commonly increases it).

I accept that your hypothesis above is about carrot and stick, not stick alone and there is no doubt that carrot and stick together will work far better than stick alone, but even then, I think it concentrates too much on the philosophical aspects of religion, which actually do vary a great deal from religion to religion (how would you fit your hypothesis around the Buddhist philosophy, where the promise is not of heaven or hell, but of oblivion?).

I think the more important aspect of religion is the human need to belong, the need to conform, the same need that leads a child to mimic the actions of its parents, to learn to conform to social environment that it needs to be a part of.  There is fear, but it is not fear of the afterlife, but rather it is fear of rejection.



George
« Last Edit: 01/08/2006 22:13:06 by another_someone »
 

Offline btud

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Re: Religion
« Reply #18 on: 01/08/2006 23:22:25 »
Why somebody needs to choose a religion? How can you choose the truth from a limited number of answers? Are you sure that one of them is true? What if all are false? Isn't it more rational to actively search the truth? Isn't it more normal to use the scientific method?
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #19 on: 02/08/2006 05:37:34 »
yes
 

Offline 4getmenot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #20 on: 02/08/2006 23:46:59 »
what is the scientific method?

k
 

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Re: Religion
« Reply #20 on: 02/08/2006 23:46:59 »

 

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