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Author Topic: Does hydrogen and oxygen fed to a petrol engine improve performance?  (Read 14198 times)

Offline peppercorn

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Nothing substitutes for empirical testing.  I'm still waiting for my HHO system to arrive.  I think it was supposed to be a $1000 system, but I managed to snag it off of e-bay for a mere 99 cents (plus shipping).

That's one hellava saving (though it would take a real mug to pay a grand for one!). I just hope the shipping cost isn't $999 ;)

I look forward to your empirical test results also... which should take the form A-B-A (A- No HHO, B-HHO fitted; 3 identical journeys).  What's the age and mileage of the vehicle you are going to test it on btw?  The possible incremental decoking effect (again, probably no different from injection a little water) might give you an initial jump in mpg... which should continue on removing the electrolyser.
 

Offline peppercorn

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However, when I was considering a CAT for my Fiat 500, it required also adding a complex O2 sensor/air injection feedback system to reduce the hydrocarbons to a level manageable by the CAT.  So, you are right that modern cars should have many of the controls required for a clean burning, and presumably efficient engine.

I assume you are talking about a '60s Fiat 500 then :)
What prompted you to even consider such a retrofit? ... I could understand it on something with a hefty V8 that chucked out tons of pollutants per mile... but a tiddly 500cc! - ??
I'd imagine anything not using electronic fuel injection and ignition timing is quite a challenge to operate a Cat' with anyway.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2013 15:13:04 by peppercorn »
 

Offline homebrewer

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Does "Browns Gas" fed to a petrol engine improve performance? NO 
Can "Browns Gas" be stored? NO

Can "Browns Gas" be used for welding? YES
Can "Browns Gas" be used to clean flue gas in coal fired power stations ? YES

Will the installation of "Browns Gas" generators in your car void your car insurance ? YES

Industrial "Browns Gas" generators are produced in South Korea and in Germany.

In my professional opinion non-industrial "Browns Gas" generators present a considerable danger
outside a tight "Health and Safety" regime such as the one provided and monitored by the UK HSE.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 01:23:56 by homebrewer »
 

Offline peppercorn

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Can "Browns Gas" be used to clean flue gas in coal fired power stations ? YES
Can you expand on this?  Can you say a little about why "Browns Gas" would be used as opposed to other methods?
 

Offline homebrewer

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I have stopped manufacturing 3 kwh prototype "Browns Gas Generators"
back in 1998 here in the UK, and my expertise is limited to the building of
such apparatus and their control systems.

From discussion with endusers I understand the following :

That "Browns Gas" is used in the stack to :
----------------------------------------------

A) To control the stack and SO2 catalyst temperature
B) To reduce dustloading
C) To reduce the carbon particulate
D) To markedly reduce NOx
E) To gain extra heat from the burning process.


The choice for "Browns Gas" is the low cost of electricity at source,
combined with the ability to control the stack and catalyst temperature,
whilst gaining extra energy through the burning of the carbon particulate
and reduction of the NOx. The additional energy might be used to generate
more electricity.

I am afraid this is all I am able to add to this discussion and I am
sorry  English is not my first language.

If you wish you might view the now leading company
[spam / questionable link removed as per forum rules]




« Last Edit: 20/11/2013 16:54:58 by peppercorn »
 

Offline homebrewer

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For your information I have enclosed an image of a 215 mm dia, 316 SS, charge electrode of my own design.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

SAFETY WARNING UK
This article or picture is no invitation to build or experiment with "Browns Gas". Please contact a trained lecturer or university professor before undertaking any research or experiments, identify current working practices and risks involved, which could result in serious injury or the loss of live. DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME.

 






 

Offline CliffordK

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Will the installation of "Browns Gas" generators in your car void your car insurance ? YES
Perhaps it is a translation issue.  It may affect the warranty on newer cars, but anything over a few years old would be out of warranty anyway.  Certainly any carbureted car in the USA would be long out of warranty. 

Insurance, on the other hand should be unaffected, although some insurance companies don't like "modified" cars.  Others don't make the distinction.
 

Offline peppercorn

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That "Browns Gas" is used in the stack to :
----------------------------------------------
A) To control the stack and SO2 catalyst temperature
B) To reduce dustloading
C) To reduce the carbon particulate
D) To markedly reduce NOx
E) To gain extra heat from the burning process.

The choice for "Browns Gas" is the low cost of electricity at source, combined with the ability to control the stack and catalyst temperature,  whilst gaining extra energy through the burning of the carbon particulate and reduction of the NOx. The additional energy might be used to generate more electricity.

"Gaining extra heat" from burning HHO makes no sense. And no matter how cheap the electricity is 'at source', electrolyzing water and then burning it again will result in a net loss of recoverable energy and certainly can't be 'used to generate more electricity'.
Steam injection may make some sense, especially if they are having trouble regulating the stack and catalyst temperature. But this Brown's Gas business sounds like a non-starter to me.
 

Offline homebrewer

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Will the installation of "Browns Gas" generators in your car void your car insurance ? YES
Perhaps it is a translation issue.  It may affect the warranty on newer cars, but anything over a few years old would be out of warranty anyway.  Certainly any carbureted car in the USA would be long out of warranty. 

Insurance, on the other hand should be unaffected, although some insurance companies don't like "modified" cars.  Others don't make the distinction.


Thank you for your consideration.

I have no experience with the insurance  market in the US, but my research carried out on the London insurance market indicated that  no syndicate was willing to underwrite cars fitted with "Brows Gas generators".  Hence my assertion, as nobody was willing to underwrite the insurance risk, fitting of "Browns Gas" generators would void insurance policies issued by LLOYDS of LONDON.
 

Offline homebrewer

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That "Browns Gas" is used in the stack to :
----------------------------------------------
A) To control the stack and SO2 catalyst temperature
B) To reduce dustloading
C) To reduce the carbon particulate
D) To markedly reduce NOx
E) To gain extra heat from the burning process.

The choice for "Browns Gas" is the low cost of electricity at source, combined with the ability to control the stack and catalyst temperature,  whilst gaining extra energy through the burning of the carbon particulate and reduction of the NOx. The additional energy might be used to generate more electricity.

"Gaining extra heat" from burning HHO makes no sense. And no matter how cheap the electricity is 'at source', electrolyzing water and then burning it again will result in a net loss of recoverable energy and certainly can't be 'used to generate more electricity'.
Steam injection may make some sense, especially if they are having trouble regulating the stack and catalyst temperature. But this Brown's Gas business sounds like a non-starter to me.

It was  never suggested that HHO electrolyzing water will result in a net gain of energy.  But it was stated that additional energy would be released during burning of the "Browns Gas", from combustable materials which will only combust at elevated temperatures such as dust and carbon particulates.

I am sorry if I have not made my point too clear - sorry.
 

Offline peppercorn

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I am sorry if I have not made my point too clear - sorry.

Fair enough. I was just puzzled (still am, rather) - especially when you claimed that, "The additional energy might be used to generate more electricity".  Still, I expect it's simply a case of getting lost in translation, eh!
 

Offline peppercorn

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Anyway, I've decided to order one of the HHO systems off of E-Bay so I can try it out myself...
I meant to ask, did you ever fit this 'magical' device in the end? And did you run any before after tests?
 

Offline homebrewer

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I am sorry if I have not made my point too clear - sorry.

Fair enough. I was just puzzled (still am, rather) - especially when you claimed that, "The additional energy might be used to generate more electricity".  Still, I expect it's simply a case of getting lost in translation, eh!

I try very hard to improve on my English technical writing skills, and I am very grateful for any comments made.
 

Offline homebrewer

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Anyway, I've decided to order one of the HHO systems off of E-Bay so I can try it out myself...
I meant to ask, did you ever fit this 'magical' device in the end? And did you run any before after tests?

The device had been shippped to South America on approval and was returned as a heap of scrap,
because the clients had to modify the "Brown Gas Generator", instead of running it with HHO and
3 % Azeton, they had used HHO, 25% Azeton plus 3 % Ether.


So when you have a look at the previous picture of my electrode, you will find a part circle which I call
a "Chimney" it was designed in case of blow outs, but not for this level of abuse. Here the "Chimney"
could not cope with the reaction in the containment vessel and ruptured.

This was the end of my final "Browns Gas" generator.
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 17:37:38 by homebrewer »
 

Offline Ethos_

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The energy required to separate these two elements from the water that contains them can not be fully extracted again by burning them in an engine. That would be equivalent to perpetual motion. However, the octane rating of Hydrogen is much higher than petrol and when mixed together, the compression ratio of an engine may be raised. Increasing the compression ratio of an engine will allow more horsepower to be extracted from it. This of course will necessitate installing different pistons and or milling the heads which requires dissemble and labor costs. And remember, if this work is preformed, using available pump gasoline without the addition of sufficient Hydrogen would then damage the engine thru detonation or pre-ignition.

Assuming one could generate enough Hydrogen to make this conversion worthwhile, it could have benefits, but if and only if compression is also raised to a point where pump gas would no longer work by itself.
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 17:59:24 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline homebrewer

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will allow more horsepower to be extracted from it.

Food for thought :

The detonation velocity for the reaction :

2H2 + O2  => 2H2O

is  2820 m/sec

 
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 20:46:25 by homebrewer »
 

Offline CliffordK

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As far as my device, I have it here, but I haven't gotten it installed yet.  I should be able to alternate between running it with it on vs off once installed.  However, I don't drive that much, so the tests would have to be done with partial tanks of gas over time.

The energy required to separate these two elements from the water that contains them can not be fully extracted again by burning them in an engine.

Ideally, that would be true, but on the generation side, there are losses with the battery/alternator circuit, and heat is generated during electrolysis which is wasted energy.

On the consumption side, energy efficiency of most vehicle engines is somewhere around 30%, and again, burning gas generates heat which is lost through the exhaust and the cooling system.

So, theoretically, the system should have a significant net loss.  However, combustion efficiency gains are still possible.
 

Offline peppercorn

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The detonation velocity for the reaction : 2H2 + O2  => 2H2O is  2820 m/sec
A couple of things... Detonation in a petrol engine is bad news, and can damage it.  Second, all HHO systems, by their nature, only represent a tiny fraction of the fuel being burnt (hence the arguments that the flame speed is somehow the 'secret weapon' of these snake-oil systems), so the idea that H2s and O2s are neatly 'buddied up' all the way until the point of ignition is not realistic.  Detonation velocity in air for H2 is given at about 1500 m/s - which is the best you will see in reality.

Basically, there is quite good evidence that fumigating diesel engines with up to about 15% propane can, for some engines, improve their overall fuel consumption.  Similarly, adding a gaseous "fuel" (ie. something already burnable without splitting; so not H20), mixed into the intake air on a petrol engine might improve the combustion conditions in cylinder - in some circumstances.

There is a separate situation for 'boosted' gas' motors. That's all tied up with octane - ie. stopping that nasty detonation under high load or compression.  Injecting methanol/water mixtures is a proven means of limiting detonation under high boost.  This has little or nothing to do with fuel saving though.
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 19:54:48 by peppercorn »
 

Offline homebrewer

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I totally agree with your theories and findings.

You might have been wondering why I have posted the formula, this was not to upset anybody but to create a " pause in time........... " as the philosophers would say.

And you have responded, and I wished more learned friends would have done the same.

THANK YOU.





 

Offline syhprum

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Compression ratio is not really correct when the engine is compressing the fuel/air mixture power is being adsorbed it is when the burning mixture expands for a longer time that there is a gain in power so the correct term is expansion ratio 
 

Offline CliffordK

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Compression ratio is not really correct when the engine is compressing the fuel/air mixture power is being adsorbed it is when the burning mixture expands for a longer time that there is a gain in power so the correct term is expansion ratio 

Compression ratio is simply the volume when the piston is down (uncompressed) divided by the volume in the cylinder when the piston is up (compressed).

I believe power increases somewhat with higher compression ratios.  However, the risk of high compression ratios in a gasoline engine is compression ignition, or "dieseling" & "knocking".  Higher octane ratings help prevent the dieseling and knocking.

Diesel engines, of course, work based on compression ignition.  However, they use direct cylinder injection at high compression. 

Since the internal combustion engines have the piston attached to the crank, the "time" would be the same for the compression and expansion strokes.  The volume is also essentially the same, but with the ideal gas law, PV=nRT, expansion volume & pressure are essentially interchangeable.
 

Offline SimpleEngineer

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I feel something has been lost in the discussions.

For an engine to work, it needs fuel, air and a source of ignition, ignition is nice and easy (petrol sparks, diesel heats), there is much talk over the increasing fuel/changing fuel etc. but what is lost is the requirement for air, now pumping a stoichiometric amount of HHO into ta cylinder will work fine on its own, but doing it with the other fuel in there would limit the amount of air for that reaction and limit the return on that fuel.

the whole fuel/air ratio would need to be addressed way in advance of strapping any HHO generator to car.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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"the whole fuel/air ratio would need to be addressed way in advance of strapping any HHO generator to car."
I thought most modern engine management systems already did that by measuring the O2 in the exhaust gases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
If a little of the air were replaced by a mixture of H2 and O2  the engine system could compensate by adding slightly more air or equivalently, slightly less petrol.
 

Offline peppercorn

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modern engine management systems already did that by measuring the O2 in the exhaust gases.
If a little of the air were replaced by a mixture of H2 and O2  the engine system could compensate by adding slightly more air or equivalently, slightly less petrol.
Quite so. No matter what claims the HHO (snake oil) salesmen make for their devices, none of them should (seriously) be expecting customers to believe such a device makes up any more than the tiniest fraction of mass flow into an engine... the small adjustment to keep at stoichiometric ratio is well within the parameters of the car's ECU anyway.
 

Offline CycleGuy

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Compressing HHO is a big no-no. It tends to explosively recombine. The end result may be just water, but that explosion tends to make a mess. There's a guy in southern California who was experimenting with compressing HHO... he blew the building he was in apart and deaded himself.
 

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