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Author Topic: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?  (Read 11386 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction  ?

Source : Topdocumentaryfilms.com/ Scientific American / Wikipedia :

See these unethical attempts of this scientist regarding human cloning that might result in many unexpected side effects ...that might end in tragedy ...

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/human-cloning/


Dolly , for example , was the first animal mammal sheep to have been cloned via adult cells ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_%28sheep%29


The First Human Cloned Embryo :

Source : Scientific American :

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-first-human-cloned-em


What do you think about all that , folks ?
Do you think human cloning is possible , or is just science -fiction that might end up creating  some sort of Frankenstein's monster ?
Thanks , appreciate indeed.
Cheers .



 

Offline cheryl j

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It might be possible, but I suppose the obvious question would be, why? There used to be hysterical fear over cloning humans to serve as banks for organs, but it's hard enough to keep a person healthy in a nursing home, let alone a body floating in some tank in a ware house. It makes a lot more sense just to grow a lung or a liver, or implant cells that repair an organ. And there were also, in past years, science fiction stories about "cloning Hitler." But you don't get "Hitler," just something like his identical twin, who could turn out to be a nice guy under other environmental conditions.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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It might be possible, but I suppose the obvious question would be, why? There used to be hysterical fear over cloning humans to serve as banks for organs, but it's hard enough to keep a person healthy in a nursing home, let alone a body floating in some tank in a ware house. It makes a lot more sense just to grow a lung or a liver, or implant cells that repair an organ. And there were also, in past years, science fiction stories about "cloning Hitler." But you don't get "Hitler," just something like his identical twin, who could turn out to be a nice guy under other environmental conditions.

Exactly : 

I wonder why certain scientists want per se to clone humans , like that criminal unethical Frankenstein scientist in that above mentioned topdocumentary film tried to do , just for achieving personal fame and "glory " , while cloning ,even at the level of animals, has turned out to be a very risky business ,with many side effects and unexpected monstruosities variables ..
And the most important point you made also here above , is that one would not "create " or clone the exact same human person via his / her adult cells = just another physically identical one , with different faculties qualities or properties that would be shaped by the environment culture society pshyche ....of the potentially eventually cloned person in question .
Even natural identical twins are not really and completely identical .

So, "cloning ", in the sense that cloning would create an exact copy or anduplicate of the cloned person in question , is inadequate  a concept , is  not the right word .

Playing with life that criminal unethical way is not right either .

Stem cells research , for example , is ok ,but cloning is something different and unethical .

There are many scientists who do not care about any ethics wahstoever , just about their personal fame, ambitions , ego , status , position , career, unfortunately enough ...





« Last Edit: 19/10/2013 18:22:21 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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"There are many scientists who do not care about any ethics wahstoever , just about their personal fame, ambitions , ego , status , position , career, unfortunately enough .."

Name a few.
 

Offline CliffordK

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With IVF, twinning is certainly possible. 
Take a blastocyst, split it in two, plus take a cell for genetic tests, then implant the pair of eggs. 
Perhaps put a couple of "twins" into cold storage, in case the first doesn't take.

Actually, one could keep split blastocysts in cold storage for an extended period as a type of a clone.

As far as adult cloning, I think the issue that became obvious with the animal cloning is that the clone isn't nearly as stable as natural born offspring.  Perhaps this will be resolved, or perhaps there will be better screening of embryos prior to implantation.  But, producing "broken" clones is unethical.

Yes, a clone is its own individual.  But, there may be some basic personality traits that would be passed on if adequately nurtured.  For example I have an insatiable curiosity which I would think a clone might also posses. 

Why do many people prefer having their own children vs adopting?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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"There are many scientists who do not care about any ethics wahstoever , just about their personal fame, ambitions , ego , status , position , career, unfortunately enough .."

Name a few.

Plenty : from which part of the list should i start ...such as the one in that top docu right here above , for example .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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With IVF, twinning is certainly possible. 
Take a blastocyst, split it in two, plus take a cell for genetic tests, then implant the pair of eggs. 
Perhaps put a couple of "twins" into cold storage, in case the first doesn't take.

Actually, one could keep split blastocysts in cold storage for an extended period as a type of a clone.

As far as adult cloning, I think the issue that became obvious with the animal cloning is that the clone isn't nearly as stable as natural born offspring.  Perhaps this will be resolved, or perhaps there will be better screening of embryos prior to implantation.  But, producing "broken" clones is unethical.

Yes, a clone is its own individual.  But, there may be some basic personality traits that would be passed on if adequately nurtured.  For example I have an insatiable curiosity which I would think a clone might also posses. 

Why do many people prefer having their own children vs adopting?

There are many traits that cannot be passed on to the offspring though , such as intelligence ...
Gotta go, sorry
 

Offline alancalverd

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It's entirely possible: twins are clones.

The only reason for creating intentional clones would be to replicate some desirable characteristic of the mother. You can't produce a "monster" by cloning anything except another monster, though as Clifford has pointed out, adult mammal clones do seem to be genetically fragile. The reason is not obvious - we have been cloning plants for thousands of years and potatoes seem pretty stable - but I think we can expect an explanation or a solution because cloned dairy cattle would be very useful.

I can't see any ethical objection to making wanted babies by any means. If the omnipotent and almighty god finds this offensive, for reasons beyond my imagining, I'm sure he will strike me dead without the help of priests and mullahs. Evidence so far suggests no objection from that quarter.   
« Last Edit: 20/10/2013 08:13:56 by alancalverd »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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It's entirely possible: twins are clones.

The only reason for creating intentional clones would be to replicate some desirable characteristic of the mother. You can't produce a "monster" by cloning anything except another monster, though as Clifford has pointed out, adult mammal clones do seem to be genetically fragile. The reason is not obvious - we have been cloning plants for thousands of years and potatoes seem pretty stable - but I think we can expect an explanation or a solution because cloned dairy cattle would be very useful.

Some desirable characteristic of the mother such as what ? Such as her looks ?
Not all traits of the mum can be [assed on to her siblings either  .
It takes 2 to make a baby , as you know, except in the cases of Jesus , Adam and Eve haha  : a father and a mother , in the conventional way then .
The potential babies might inherit genes  or traits  from the earlier generations of either the mother or the father , or from both , that might not be desirable after all .
Besides, my links show that human cloning is still a big risk , still cannot be stable , can trigger unwanted undesirable and unexpected side effects ...
The ethical part of human cloning must also be somehow resolved , before any ethical attempts to clone humans can be allowed to proceed .


Quote
Quote
I can't see any ethical objection to making wanted babies by any means. If the omnipotent and almighty god finds this offensive, for reasons beyond my imagining, I'm sure he will strike me dead without the help of priests and mullahs. Evidence so far suggests no objection from that quarter.

Who talked about God for that matter ? or do you have just an unsolved  subjective thing or issue with God ,you cannot but express ,regardless of being offtopic or ontopic on the matter ...
 

Offline Pmb

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Quote from: cheryl j
It might be possible, but I suppose the obvious question would be, why?
Good question. In my case I'd love to create a little pmb just so that there'd be at least one person in this universe which I truly understand. :)

It'd be interesting to use this to explore the nature versus  nurture question.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #10 on: 22/10/2013 17:46:28 »
Quote from: cheryl j
It might be possible, but I suppose the obvious question would be, why?
Good question. In my case I'd love to create a little pmb just so that there'd be at least one person in this universe which I truly understand. :)

It'd be interesting to use this to explore the nature versus  nurture question.

Human nature vs nurture environment remains a relative ...mystery indeed .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #11 on: 22/10/2013 17:56:02 »

It takes 2 to make a baby , as you know,

Apparently not. That's what we mean by cloning.

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The ethical part of human cloning must also be somehow resolved , before any ethical attempts to clone humans can be allowed to proceed .

So what in your opinion (or anyone else's) is the ethical question? Assume that we have sorted out the problems of instability and premature ageing (aas many other species have), what is the problem of making a wanted baby by any particular means?   
« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 18:07:59 by alancalverd »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #12 on: 22/10/2013 18:01:31 »
In my case I'd love to create a little pmb just so that there'd be at least one person in this universe which I truly understand. :)

It'd be interesting to use this to explore the nature versus  nurture question.

Making babies by the usual procedure is a lot of fun.

And there's plenty of nature/nurture research on natural twins. I'm just not sure how much of it gets published - there's no headline mileage in showing that upbringing matters more than genes. Hence, I think, irrational public fears about cloning a thousand mini-Hitlers (as if we didn't have enough middle managers and keepers-of-the-stationery-cupboard in the world already).
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #13 on: 22/10/2013 18:13:57 »

It takes 2 to make a baby , as you know,

Apparently not. That's what we mean by cloning.

I was just talking about the conventional natural way of making babies , you are familar with , aren't you ?
Even cloning needs a second donor to be applied ....don't you think ? = via the nucleus or DNA of an adult cell that gets infused into  a female's ovule's nucleus, the latter that gets emptied first , prior to that former action, in the case of a male donor of adult cells   .
A female donor does not need a second one, if that female in question happens to have healthy ovules at leat  .


« Last Edit: 22/10/2013 18:18:07 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #14 on: 22/10/2013 23:14:30 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte
Even cloning needs a second donor to be applied ....don't you think ? = via the nucleus or DNA of an adult cell
No. Thatís not how cloning works. The DNA only comes from one source, that which is being cloned.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

The genetic material from the ovum that it gets implanted into does not carry along the DNA of the source of the ovum.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #15 on: 22/10/2013 23:35:42 »
One does need the donor egg.
I believe the mDNA actually does come from the egg, and not from the individual being cloned.

There are a few redundant organs that one may benefit having a clone or delayed monozygotic twin as a donor.

A chunk of the liver.
A Kidney
Possibly Bone Marrow (although moderate graft v host disease may be preferable to an exact match)
Possibly skin.

Of course it would be unethical to raise a clone to harvest vital organs such as a heart.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #16 on: 23/10/2013 00:51:12 »
In my case I'd love to create a little pmb just so that there'd be at least one person in this universe which I truly understand. :)

It'd be interesting to use this to explore the nature versus  nurture question.

Making babies by the usual procedure is a lot of fun.

And there's plenty of nature/nurture research on natural twins. I'm just not sure how much of it gets published - there's no headline mileage in showing that upbringing matters more than genes. Hence, I think, irrational public fears about cloning a thousand mini-Hitlers (as if we didn't have enough middle managers and keepers-of-the-stationery-cupboard in the world already).

You would think, though, that there would be tons of head line mileage in showing what is attributable to environment or nurture since that is usually easiest to modify or control. And it's certainly psychologically appealing. If your genes make you more likely to get type II diabetes, but you can also interfere with diet and exercise to stop or reverse it, you have the comfort of knowing "it's not your fault" but the empowerment of being able to change your fate. Too bad more things in life are not that way.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #17 on: 23/10/2013 01:32:44 »
The problem with the "mini-me" concept in life. 

One would have to recognize the new entity as being its own separate entity.  There is no way to recreate the "nurture" portion of one's life experiences.

If I could relive my past, there are quite a few things that I might choose to change.  However, I also know that doing so would certainly change who I am today including aspects of my personality that I would not otherwise choose to alter.  And, of course, growing up in today's society necessarily could not be equivalent to growing up in a bygone era.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #18 on: 23/10/2013 02:14:54 »
Cheryl - Please discuss the difference between an identical twin and a clone in the sense of genetic identity.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #19 on: 23/10/2013 02:15:44 »
The problem with the "mini-me" concept in life. 

One would have to recognize the new entity as being its own separate entity.  There is no way to recreate the "nurture" portion of one's life experiences.

If I could relive my past, there are quite a few things that I might choose to change.  However, I also know that doing so would certainly change who I am today including aspects of my personality that I would not otherwise choose to alter.  And, of course, growing up in today's society necessarily could not be equivalent to growing up in a bygone era.

True, you can't go back and change your past nurturing experiences or environmental exposures any more that you can change your genetics.  But you can sometimes look at statistical data, to determine whether changing your current environment might have any benefit, by comparing what happens to those who do with those who don't.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #20 on: 23/10/2013 02:47:28 »
Cheryl - Please discuss the difference between an identical twin and a clone in the sense of genetic identity.

A clone would have the same genes, like an identical twin, except for a scrap of DNA found in mitochondria, cell organelles that transfer the energy of glucose to ATP. Mitochondria would come from the cell that the clone "parent's" DNA is inserted into. ( Why mitochondria have their own DNA is another question.) But a clone should be no different genetically than an identical twin, except that, as mentioned by others, they are more genetically fragile for some reason, more prone to mistakes. I don't know if that means they are more prone to mistakes in the next reproductive generation or when their own cells divide, or both. Maybe some else here does. But in one article I read it was associated with shorter teleomeres, the ends of chromosomes that protect them from deterioration or from "sticking" to  nearby chromosomes during cell division when they shouldn't. In normal, non cloned cells, teleomeres get shorter the more times a cell divides, which might be associated with cell death as we age, but in cloned cells they seem to be already too short from the get go.

« Last Edit: 23/10/2013 02:53:55 by cheryl j »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #21 on: 23/10/2013 08:54:18 »
You would think, though, that there would be tons of head line mileage in showing what is attributable to environment or nurture since that is usually easiest to modify or control. And it's certainly psychologically appealing. If your genes make you more likely to get type II diabetes, but you can also interfere with diet and exercise to stop or reverse it, you have the comfort of knowing "it's not your fault" but the empowerment of being able to change your fate. Too bad more things in life are not that way.

You've put your finger on it. No parent wants to be told that their daughter's serial killing habit is a result of bad parenting, no 30-year-old smoker wants to learn on his deathbed that he has behaved like an idiot. The headline that sells newspapers is "it's written in your genes" because absolution is nice to have, and everyone likes a good news story from the world of medicine.

There is of course a downside. A few years ago a Texas court ruled that "genetic predisposition to murder" was a legitimate defence inasmuch as it was possibly provable, but carried an automatic death penalty as an admission of persistent threat. I don't think it has been offered as a defence anywhere since then.

Pete
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so that there'd be at least one person in this universe which I truly understand.
get a dog - they're much less trouble than people, and they understand us in return.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #22 on: 23/10/2013 11:55:14 »
In one article I read it was associated with shorter teleomeres, the ends of chromosomes that protect them from deterioration or from "sticking" to  nearby chromosomes during cell division when they shouldn't. In normal, non cloned cells, teleomeres get shorter the more times a cell divides, which might be associated with cell death as we age, but in cloned cells they seem to be already too short from the get go.
Telomeres should be able to be extended as part of the cell preparation.  Perhaps give the clone a few extra base pairs for good measure.

Perhaps if the DNA for cloning was taken from a germ cell, then it should not have any more mutations than the corresponding egg or sperm cells would have. 

In theory, there should be some natural selection, especially for the sperm.  "Survival of the fittest".  And, even the developmental stage, some embryos and fetuses are naturally aborted.  We take some of it out of the equation with IVF, but perhaps damaged clones are more likely to be carried full term than would be the case with naturally fertilized eggs with major genetic abnormalities. 

What about DNA methylation?  X inactivation?

Presumably over time we'll be able to determine the fundamental differences between a fertilized egg, and adult cells.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #23 on: 23/10/2013 14:34:35 »
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And, even the developmental stage, some embryos and fetuses are naturally aborted.

"Some" being at least 30% of those that actually proceed to implantation, plus an unknown number of inseminated ova that do not even get that far.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #24 on: 23/10/2013 18:19:16 »


There is of course a downside. A few years ago a Texas court ruled that "genetic predisposition to murder" was a legitimate defence inasmuch as it was possibly provable, but carried an automatic death penalty as an admission of persistent threat. I don't think it has been offered as a defence anywhere since then.
 
Yes, genetics as a defense is a double edged sword. The more you claim a genetic predisposition makes you not responsible for your actions, the less modifiable your behavior is, and less likely the criminal justice system will view you as someone who can be rehabilitated. While it might be cruel to "punish" someone deemed not responsible for their actions, you can't let them loose either.
 

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Re: Is Human Cloning Possible, or is it just Science -Fiction ?
« Reply #24 on: 23/10/2013 18:19:16 »

 

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