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Author Topic: Are We Alone in The Universe ?  (Read 23438 times)

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #25 on: 06/11/2013 21:08:37 »
Hey! Progress! You have answered a question! Let's keep this moving on....

You say the world is populated with immaterial beings. What do they do that makes you think they exist? 

I too am interested in seeing his answer to this question.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #26 on: 07/11/2013 18:26:31 »
Quote
Hey! Progress! You have answered a question! Let's keep this moving on....

You say the world is populated with immaterial beings. What do they do that makes you think they exist?.


I too am interested in seeing his answer to this question.

I am not afraid   haha of any  mainstream  materialist 'scientific world view "'s censorship or inquisitions to dare to say that there are indeed spiritual immaterial beings on earth out there , even though i cannot prove their existence ,as i cannot prove the existence of God either = just  belief assumptions of mine thus .
Since the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " assumes , just a materialist belief core assumption thus , that reality as a whole is just material or physical , then, it's pretty obvious that that "scientific world view " would a-priori reject those belief assumptions of mine as expressed above thus .

But , science proper thus (without materialism thus ) cannot , per definition, neither prove nor disprove  neither my belief in the existence of God nor my belief in the existence of those immaterial or spiritual beings on earth = that's 'somehting " that's both outside of science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus .

P.S.: Those above mentioned belief assumptions of mine are not just based on religious authority , but also on my own personal experiences on the subject, among other factors as well  .
Religion , or just my faith in this case , that does stimulate experience , personal experience ,for example,  before science ever learned to do so thus .
Even science itself did originate from the very epistemology of the holy book i do believe in also: see my own thread on the same subject  : science as a religious duty , a form of worship of God , in order to try to find out about the secrets and signs of God both within and without .
Long story thus i am not gonna elaborate any further on .
« Last Edit: 07/11/2013 18:33:29 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline SimpleEngineer

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #27 on: 08/11/2013 09:05:00 »

I am not afraid   haha of any  mainstream  materialist 'scientific world view "'s censorship or inquisitions to dare to say that there are indeed spiritual immaterial beings on earth out there , even though i cannot prove their existence ,as i cannot prove the existence of God either = just  belief assumptions of mine thus .
Since the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " assumes , just a materialist belief core assumption thus , that reality as a whole is just material or physical , then, it's pretty obvious that that "scientific world view " would a-priori reject those belief assumptions of mine as expressed above thus .

But , science proper thus (without materialism thus ) cannot , per definition, neither prove nor disprove  neither my belief in the existence of God nor my belief in the existence of those immaterial or spiritual beings on earth = that's 'somehting " that's both outside of science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well thus .

P.S.: Those above mentioned belief assumptions of mine are not just based on religious authority , but also on my own personal experiences on the subject, among other factors as well  .
Religion , or just my faith in this case , that does stimulate experience , personal experience ,for example,  before science ever learned to do so thus .
Even science itself did originate from the very epistemology of the holy book i do believe in also: see my own thread on the same subject  : science as a religious duty , a form of worship of God , in order to try to find out about the secrets and signs of God both within and without .
Long story thus i am not gonna elaborate any further on .

You didn't answer the question.. what do they do that makes you think they exist? We are not asking for proof, just examples of things that cannot be explained by what you call materialism?

You are arguing yourself in circles. You accuse science of having a negative belief, and use your own negative belief as a counter argument. Science may never prove or disprove the existence of the immaterial, but it may find the evidence for it that you so obviously need to make your arguments hold water. It may very well be outside the possibility of science to actually investigate the immaterial, but until there's some immaterial evidence there is no current boundary for science to reach and so it will will keep discovering the material world until it finds where it cannot go further.. Your belief is not affected by the progress of science.. unless it explains what you call 'proof' of your belief to be a false belief..

You are simply my sir, afraid of being proven to have lived your life on a lie. And want to stop everyone else from finding out.   
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #28 on: 08/11/2013 10:50:13 »
Quote
I am not afraid....

so why not just answer the very simple question instead of blathering on about what you think I might think.

What is it that these immaterial beings do that makes you think they exist?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #29 on: 08/11/2013 17:37:05 »
Just try to read what i said carefully then, folks .
Any beliefs for that matter are , per definition, unscientific ,either the religious beliefs or the secular ones thus,  but, they are not all necessarily false , as materialism is .
They just happen to be both outside of science's realm and outside of science's jurisdiction as well , when science will be less dogmatic and more scientific by rejecting materialism in science that has been taken for granted as the "scientific world view " for so long now , without question  .
Thanks , appreciate indeed.
Cheers.
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #30 on: 08/11/2013 21:53:45 »
Did you have an experience with a haunting of some sort? I'm actually rather interested in such things (and anything related to spirits or paranormal), so I'd welcome any stories you have on those matters.

Even though I agree that one can believe in unexplained things without a need for scientific proof of them, I should also point out that one should have a good reason to believe in such things. If I saw a Bigfoot firsthand, then I would have a legitimate reason to believe in them. However, if I believed in something solely because I was taught to believe in it, then the rationality of that belief becomes questionable.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #31 on: 09/11/2013 18:29:55 »
Did you have an experience with a haunting of some sort? I'm actually rather interested in such things (and anything related to spirits or paranormal), so I'd welcome any stories you have on those matters.

Even though I agree that one can believe in unexplained things without a need for scientific proof of them, I should also point out that one should have a good reason to believe in such things. If I saw a Bigfoot firsthand, then I would have a legitimate reason to believe in them. However, if I believed in something solely because I was taught to believe in it, then the rationality of that belief becomes questionable.

Most people do miss the fact that there are false and true beliefs indeed out there :
The beliefs in the tooth fairy , Sint Claus ...are obviously false .
But,science can indeed only wish to approach those true beliefs out there .
Some true beliefs are based not just on authority , but also on personal experiences , even though there are cases of alleged "paranormal " experiences that can turn out to be illusions that might be generated by epilepsy and the sort , by brain disorder , brain damage ....( There is no such a thing such as the paranormal in fact , just made-up by man semantics : the so-called paranormal, or rather just the real one ,  is normal : makes part of reality as a whole : that's just the non-physical or non-material side of reality : the paranormal label is just the materialist way of dismissing what lies beyond the false materialist version of reality, and hence beyond the false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " thus .).
In my case , and in the case of many people i did investigate in many ways , people who did experience similar personal experiences to mine i did try to put under harsh and uncompromised methodic scrutiny , in my case , i did have some way too personal encounters with some spiritual beings whose short nasty and unpleasant (an understatement ) control over me , in ways i can hardly describe or just talk about , whose control over me was undone via the help of well informed and well experienced people in the field : long story thus , i might tell you all about another day thus : a personal nasty terrible and too-real -to-me-not-to-be-true story i prefer to forget about , for the time being  at least  , for obvious reasons thus .

In short :

Folks :

The core issue here is , once again , as follows :

We shouldn't try to ossify science as to hold it imprisonned within a certain false conception of nature , as it has been the case since the 19th century at least thus .
Science that's a kind of an effective and unparalleled adventurer like no other that should be completly free in its inquiry in relation to reality whatever the nature of which   might turn out to be .
So, to keep science confined to just  a certain conception of nature is like pretending that we do already know what the nature of reality is , and it is more like dictating to an adeventurer such as science what specific part of reality it must explore , and no other .
Science that's still a relatively young effective and unparalleled adventurer like no other that  cannot pretend to know the nature of reality as a whole already , an adventurer that must be totally free in  exploring reality , or just the parts of reality it can dela with empirically , free in exploring reality , whatever the latter might turn out to be thus .
The mainstream materialist conception of nature , and hence the 'scientific world view " , just hold back science and restrict its scope ,realm ,reach and jurisdiction , by keeping science imprisonned within the materialist version of reality that's obviously false.
The materialist reductionist naturalist conception of nature , in the sense that reality is just material or physical , is false , and hence the materialist 'scientific world view " is false also .
Reality is thus not just physical or material ,which means that all physical sciences for that matter must undergo a revolutionary and radical change , in order to be able to deal with the missing part of reality which has been labeled by the materialist false "scientific world view " as being non-existent , or as being just physical or material ,if all physical sciences want to fully deserve being called sciences at least : science thus has no choice but to include the missing part of reality in its attempts to try to describe , explain or understand reality as a whole .
Science must be totally free to explore reality , whatever the latter might turn out to be , instead of being held captive within a particular conception of nature, a false one at that  .
Science whose nature is to try to go beyond what it has already revealed , including beyond the laws of physics themselves .
There might be some more fundamental processes or whatever that might be underlying the laws of physics themselves thus , who knows ? and that might turn out to be totally different from any human notion of law that's just a human projection .
No wonder that modern physics do speak in terms of fields , for example : electro-magnetic and other fields thus : even the most basic particules are a matter of waves and mass ...
Do the maths then .

Cheers.
« Last Edit: 09/11/2013 18:33:12 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #32 on: 10/11/2013 16:24:00 »
Folks :

That i allegedly was "possessed " haha by some "supernatural " spirits was just a test   you might have been deceived by  and failed in  , since you might have been thinking that anyone such as myself who would be against the mainstream materialist " scientific world view " must turn out to be some sort of a schizophrenic patient of some sort haha .
Congratulations.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2013 16:26:57 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline SimpleEngineer

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #33 on: 11/11/2013 08:56:44 »
Test or not, if it were the case, science would show a great interest in you, as solid evidence of something that is not understood.

What you miss completely from your waffling and indignation is that science would LOVE to find an immaterial, a sentience that makes the world happen.. as it would make their lives a LOT easier.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #34 on: 11/11/2013 09:12:36 »
Well it's been nearly two weeks since I asked the question, and no answer has been given in several pages of beautifully expressed argument, so we must assume that DQ has no evidence of the existence of immaterial beings.

This makes a tenuous bridge between his world and the one that the rest of us inhabit.
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #35 on: 11/11/2013 23:00:04 »
So then, were you joking when you said you have personal experience with immaterial beings on the whole? If so, what has lead you to believe in their existence? And no, quite sane people can hold unorthodox views. I never assumed you to be mentally ill.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #36 on: 14/11/2013 20:31:37 »
So then, were you joking when you said you have personal experience with immaterial beings on the whole? If so, what has lead you to believe in their existence?

Yes , indeed : it was just a test, in the above mentioned sense thus  .
I do believe in the existence of immaterial beings on earth and elsewehere , and in much more , as  parts of my whole belief system , the latter is  not just based on authority thus , but also on the personal experiences of many people i have been having contact with ,whose allegations i did put under uncompromised scrutiny .

Besides, my own belief or religion as a whole does have its  own core transcendent   and other rationale and logic ...as well i am relatively convinced by .

My own religion which has been considering reason, logic , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense , work, personal experience , experience period , constant search , science ...as religious duties , as forms of worship of God , in order to find out about the secrets and signs of God both within and without , in order to get closer to ...God .

No wonder that the scientific method or science itself did originate from the very epistemology thus of the holy book i do believe in .

Quote
And no, quite sane people can hold unorthodox views. I never assumed you to be mentally ill.

Indeed , thanks .
Only really sane people can say the above indeed.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2013 20:34:13 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #37 on: 15/11/2013 06:55:13 »
I think you said you were Arab, right? Putting the pieces together, I'm guessing that you are a Muslim and that the spiritual beings you speak of are angels and/or djinni. There's nothing wrong with believing in such beings, but when you propose on a science discussion board that these beings exist, then surely you must expect that the members here are going to ask for evidence (or at least a good logical argument) to back up your claims.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #38 on: 15/11/2013 18:30:03 »
I think you said you were Arab, right? Putting the pieces together, I'm guessing that you are a Muslim and that the spiritual beings you speak of are angels and/or djinni. There's nothing wrong with believing in such beings, but when you propose on a science discussion board that these beings exist, then surely you must expect that the members here are going to ask for evidence (or at least a good logical argument) to back up your claims.
[/quote]

Right : when science will stop assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical , then and only then , science might be able to expand its realm , reach and jurisdiction as to include the missing part of reality it can deal with empirically .

P.S.: My own belief assumptions are , per definition, unscientific , but they are not necessarily false , as materialism is, materialism that has been making science assume that reality as a whole is just material or physical thus , while making people take that for granted as the "scientific world view " as a result  .
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #39 on: 16/11/2013 04:27:46 »
If immaterial things and/or beings are detectable, then in principle they can be tested for by science. In such a case, such concepts can only be discounted if the theories about their existence can be proven false.

If immaterial things and/or beings are not detectable, then science cannot be applied to them and science should be indifferent as to whether they exist or not. Why should (or rather, how could) science care about things that it can neither confirm nor deny?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #40 on: 16/11/2013 17:56:56 »
If immaterial things and/or beings are detectable, then in principle they can be tested for by science. In such a case, such concepts can only be discounted if the theories about their existence can be proven false.

If immaterial things and/or beings are not detectable, then science cannot be applied to them and science should be indifferent as to whether they exist or not. Why should (or rather, how could) science care about things that it can neither confirm nor deny?
[/quote]

Either way , it all comes down or up haha to  , depends on one's view on the subject considering the nature of reality as a whole thus , it all comes down to the fact that reality as a whole is not just material or physical, and hence the mainstream 'scientific world view " is ...false , which does mean that reality as a whole is not just material or physical , and the mental or the non-physical are irreducible to the physical .
In other words :
The mainstream materialist reductionist naturalist  neo-Darwinian conception of nature  is false  , and hence the  mainstream 'scientific world view " is also false , and must be rejected , and must be replaced by a more or less valid non-reductionist naturalist conception of nature that must include the mental as being non-reducible to the physical .

But , if you want to hear my own point of view regarding the non-reductionist naturalist conception of nature as a potentially "valid " alternative to materialism in science , then, i must say that it is also , obviously , ...false , simply because nature cannot "generate " life , the mind or the rest of the non-physical out there,no way  .

In short :

Any naturalist  attempts in science , eiher the materialist reductionist ones or the naturalist non-reductionist ones , cannot explain or account for how the mental or the non-physical came to exist, in the first place to begin with  .
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #41 on: 16/11/2013 23:53:53 »
So now you are saying that life is non-physical? You do realize that we have a good understanding of the basic processes that make something alive. Look at a living cell. Which part of that cell's function requires a supernatural explanation?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #42 on: 17/11/2013 18:48:42 »
So now you are saying that life is non-physical? You do realize that we have a good understanding of the basic processes that make something alive. Look at a living cell. Which part of that cell's function requires a supernatural explanation?
[/quote]

All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone ., let alone its origins .
Otherwise , try to explain to me how life did emerge from the dead matter way back to the so-called original soup.

How could sentient mental physical life rise from just physics and chemistry ?

When one wants to explain life , one should try to explain it as a whole package : body and mind, not just take the physical body as the whole thing , by reducing the mental to the physical, it cannot be reduced to  .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #43 on: 17/11/2013 23:46:41 »
Quote
All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone

Why not?

The fact that I can't climb Everest, and that nobody else had until 1953, doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. On the other hand we do have "unprovability theorems" in various branches of mathematics. So if you want to make a categorical statement of impossibility in a science forum, I expect you to back it up with more than a mere assertion.   
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #44 on: 18/11/2013 03:53:09 »
All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone .

You still didn't address my question. A single-celled organism is a living thing. If physics and chemistry alone cannot explain its functions, then there must be one or more functions of that cell that require an explanation outside of physics and chemistry. So I ask once again, what aspects of a cell's function require an explanation outside of physics and chemistry?

Quote
Otherwise , try to explain to me how life did emerge from the dead matter way back to the so-called original soup.

That sounds like a repackaging of the "God of the gaps" fallacy. "We don't know how dead matter can become life, therefore something supernatural created life". It's just another argument from ignorance.
 

Offline SimpleEngineer

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #45 on: 18/11/2013 09:46:46 »
So now you are saying that life is non-physical? You do realize that we have a good understanding of the basic processes that make something alive. Look at a living cell. Which part of that cell's function requires a supernatural explanation?

All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone ., let alone its origins .
Otherwise , try to explain to me how life did emerge from the dead matter way back to the so-called original soup.

How could sentient mental physical life rise from just physics and chemistry ?

When one wants to explain life , one should try to explain it as a whole package : body and mind, not just take the physical body as the whole thing , by reducing the mental to the physical, it cannot be reduced to  .
[/quote]

How many fallacious and misleading statements do you want to make?

Your argument from personal incredulity is plain, and shifting the burden of proof is a typical reaction when you know you are fighting a losing battle.

You play with your circular arguments, without once questioning the conclusion you are arguing from. WE have tried to meet you with false compromises, yet you stick to your guns with no proof or evidence of any kind. You inflate the conflict about the few subjects you have chosen as you immaterial evidence regardless of having no evidence excpet the lack of evidence

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #46 on: 18/11/2013 17:23:48 »
Quote
All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone

Why not?

The fact that I can't climb Everest, and that nobody else had until 1953, doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. On the other hand we do have "unprovability theorems" in various branches of mathematics. So if you want to make a categorical statement of impossibility in a science forum, I expect you to back it up with more than a mere assertion.
[/quote]

Just tell me then how life emerged from the dead matter then in the so-called original soup , genius  ?
Life that's not just a matter of physics and chemistry .
Nobody has an answer to that question , and nobody will , simply because physics and chemistry alone cannot account for life .
How did nature "generate " the conscious life then ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #47 on: 18/11/2013 17:34:21 »
All i am saying is that life cannot be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry alone .

You still didn't address my question. A single-celled organism is a living thing. If physics and chemistry alone cannot explain its functions, then there must be one or more functions of that cell that require an explanation outside of physics and chemistry. So I ask once again, what aspects of a cell's function require an explanation outside of physics and chemistry?

My question was :

How did life emerge from the dead matter in the so-called original soup ?

How physics and chemistry alone can account for the sentient life ?

Quote
Quote
Otherwise , try to explain to me how life did emerge from the dead matter way back to the so-called original soup.

That sounds like a repackaging of the "God of the gaps" fallacy. "We don't know how dead matter can become life, therefore something supernatural created life". It's just another argument from ignorance.

I did not say that : all i was saying is that physics and chemistry alone cannot account for life , let alone its origins or evolution , since reality as a whole , including life thus ,including evolution,  is not just material or physical , and therefore physics and chenistry alone can never be able to account for life or consciousness ... not now , not tomorrow or ever , simply because life as a whole , like  reality as a whole , is not just physical or material .

Trying to exlain life just in terms of physics and chemistry is materialism of the gaps in fact that reduces life or reality as a whole to just material physical biological processes, just in order to "validate " materialism , in vain  .

Your "promissory messianic materialism ", in the sense that science under materialism will be able to explain how life did emerge from the dead matter someday is just that , simply because life is not just material or physical,as reality as a whole is not , unlike what materialism wanna make you believe they are  .

Get that ? Think about it .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #48 on: 18/11/2013 17:42:41 »
Folks :

Physics and chemistry alone can never be able to explain or account for sentient life , they just try to describe it physically .
Physics and chemistry alone cannot account for sentient life thus , simply because reality as a whole , including life , is not just material or physical , as the false materialism has been assuming it to be , and hence as the false 'scientific world view " has been doing all along , since the 19th century at least .

Stop your silly promissory messianic materialist non-sense then = science under materialism will never be able to explain  sentient  life just in terms of physics and chemistry .

Solution ?

All sciences must reject the false materialist meta-paradigm in science regarding the nature of reality  , and hence their false   materialist 'scientific world view " , by including the mental that's irreducible to the physical .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #49 on: 18/11/2013 17:43:44 »
You must acquire a little humility if you wish to be taken seriously by scientists. "I don't know" is a perfectly reasonable answer to your first question, and "please define consciousness" is a reasonable response to the second, but your statement that "nobody will..." is laughably arrogant.

You would do well to study the writings of Dunning and Kruger to discover why nobody takes your unfounded assertions seriously. We've seen it all before, many times, and we are not impressed.

You can't escape the fact that living things have evolved, and since (despite being asked several times) you haven't presented any plausible evidence of supernatural intervention, we must assume that they did so according to the natural laws of physics and chemistry. Given time, we may be able to explain how.
 

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Re: Are We Alone in The Universe ?
« Reply #49 on: 18/11/2013 17:43:44 »

 

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