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Author Topic: What is ...Science ?  (Read 18262 times)

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #50 on: 11/11/2013 21:40:39 »
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You've missed the point. What is it in a brain that suffers when a person is tortured which doesn't exist after death?

We don't yet know the answer to this, but to say that the fact that we don't understand it means that it can't be material is an argument from ignorance.

That's one of Don's mistakes. There's no reason to suppose that if a brain can feel pain in some way that the material of the brain doesn't feel pain, so it's pretty easy to solve this part of the problem and to identify a possible sufferer (or sufferers) which have enough substance to them to be able to suffer. The fact that all the material of the brain is repeatedly replaced is unimportant, because the sufferer needn't be the same one throughout your life - the "soul" could be replaced with a new one and the new one would have no way of telling that it wasn't the old one.

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The thing that suffers cannot just emerge to experience pain and then disappear by magic. These things that emerge are not things of substance that could suffer.

If it cannot "just emerge", then must it exist before the creation of the brain? Where does it exist in the meantime and how does it come into being, then?

There's no reason why whatever it is that suffers can't be eternal. The material in rocks could be sentient too for all we know. The real problem for science is not so much in identifying the actual sufferer though, but in how you can get knowledge of experience of qualia out of the sufferer and into an information system capable of generating data about that experience.

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A ground-up car can motor along, but the act of motoring along is not a thing that could be tortured.

No, a ground-up car cannot motor along. That's the point.

That was a bad edit - clearly I meant to say non-ground-up, but I started trying to phrase the whole thing a different way and my modification of it then went wrong.

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Computation is an action which can be disrupted by destroying the parts which enable the action to take place, but an act of computation cannot experience pain. If pain is experienced by something, it isn't going to be experienced by something of no substance which merely emerges. You can't torture an action, or geometry, or plurality.

And you know this how?

Do you seriously think you can torture an action or pure geometry or number?

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Some people are born without the ability to feel pain. This lack of an ability to feel pain can be linked to physical causes, such as excessive endorphins in the brain and sodium channel anomalies, which in turn are caused by mutations.

Some light bulbs are attached to light fittings which are not connected up to the electricity supply due to a breakage. Some light fittings don't have bulbs in them. There are many reasons why a light may not work, but the causes of the failure do not necessarily tell you anything about how light is produced in the bulb. In the case of the brain, it's communications that are being disrupted rather than power, so disrupting them tells you even less. What it may eventually do is pinpoint locations where pain is experienced though, but that could be hard to do because you could be breaking the connections that prevent the experience or you may be breaking connections that report the experience - you can't tell the difference.

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If the experience of pain must be immaterial in origin...

Why should it be immaterial? My argument is that it should be material because immaterial things such as actions/geometry/number can't suffer.

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...then why are purely physical processes able to eliminate it?

If you interfere with any part of the chain of causation, of course the effect will be affected by that, regardless of how the suffering part is done. My complaint here is that the standard scientific account of consciousness involves qualia such as pain being experienced by something that doesn't exist as anything that could realistically experience pain (e.g. an action, geometry or plurality) while denying that those parts of the system which could more reasonably experience qualia (e.g. matter or energy) are banned from doing so. The reality with emergence is that anything that "emerges" is always 100% rooted in the components of the system (which includes the fabric of space and the rules which it imposes on the contents). If pain is experienced collectively by n items in arrangement x and arrangement x is not something capable of experiencing pain, then at least one of the n items (or a part of at least one of them) must be experiencing the pain. Alternatively, pain could be a compound sensation and different components of the system could experience different parts of the sensation, but to have them all experienced by a system without any of the parts experiencing anything is simply not viable.

Alternatively, if none of the n items in a system arranged with geometry x experienced anything, but pain was experienced by the system, then geometry x must have experienced the pain. Sentient geometry is the only solution left open in such a case, but it is infinitely more far fetched. [We can actually rule out the whole idea of sentient plurality because that would not be disrupted by the break up of the system, so it's only geometry that remains.]
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #51 on: 11/11/2013 22:55:28 »
Wait, what? I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, as you now say that pain must be material because immaterial things can't suffer. It seemed before like you were arguing that the mind and its sensations must be immaterial because no single part of a material system can experience these things.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #52 on: 12/11/2013 21:13:56 »
Wait, what? I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, as you now say that pain must be material because immaterial things can't suffer. It seemed before like you were arguing that the mind and its sensations must be immaterial because no single part of a material system can experience these things.

Your initial interpretation must have been performed too quickly to judge what you were reading correctly. Here's the starting point again:-

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Up to a point, it's easy to see how people can make the mistake of thinking that consciousness can emerge out of something complex, but when you move from woolly feelings of existence and feelings of understanding to somthing with more bite such as pain and suffering, it shows that the emergence explanation fails. You cannot have suffering without a sufferer, but a sufferer cannot emerge by magic out of a set of parts which are incapable of suffering. If a system of a number of parts contains a sufferer but none of the individual parts is or contains a sufferer, you have a contradiction rather than an explanation. Ten (you can substitute this number with any number of your choice) parts of something cannot suffer without at least one of those parts suffering. What is there in a system of ten parts that might exist to suffer which doesn't exist in any of the ten parts? A geometrical arrangement? Can geometry be tortured? A plurality? Can plurality be tortured? That is the problem with the idea of emergence as an explanation of consciousness, because it depends on magic to make something exist to suffer that can't exist as anything that could realistically suffer.
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #53 on: 14/11/2013 04:24:12 »
I'm on vacation right now, so I'm not feeling too much into debating, but let me see if I follow. So your stance is that consciousness is not a phenomenon that emerges by the combination of different parts of the brain working together, but instead comes from some sub-part of the brain that is already conscious?
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #54 on: 14/11/2013 18:11:01 »
My position on it is that nothing can emerge to do such an important thing as to suffer without any of the physical components feeling anything. If a heap of atoms can't suffer and they aren't allowed to suffer even once they are rearranged into a functioning brain, what is it in there that's capable of suffering that wasn't in the original heap? Complexity? Can you torture something so abstract as complexity? Where's your sufferer? If you can't propose something that could realistically suffer, you don't have any suffering, or any other qualia, or consciousness. Emergence produces a magical sufferer of no substance whatsoever, and that's a very poor solution.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #55 on: 14/11/2013 19:48:50 »
Once again, DonQuichotte, you did not specifically address my point about Split-Brain Syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

That's an extremely puzzling phenomena indeed : i would not call that "split-brain " syndrome though : it is just a specific brain disorder , like when specific areas of the brain are damaged , so their corresponding aspects of consciousness woud just have a "hard time " communicating with them properly , whatever that communication might be, by coordinating between them , which results in that "spli brain " phenomena , i guess, i dunno  .

I do still see the physical brain as just some sort of both a generator and a receiver , while consciousness is some sort of a transmitter .

How the immaterial consciousness does communicate or interact with the physical brain , is anybody's guess indeed



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On a second note, you keep emphasizing that science must not exclude the immaterial. However, you have also said that science cannot be applied to the immaterial. So, at best, science should simply ignore it instead of making any assumptions about it. If that is the case, then why complain that "science is being misused" if it is not appropriate to studying the immaterial in the first place? Science is a process, not an intelligence which can reason. It makes no assumptions. Only scientists are able to do that.

You do seem not to know the fact that science   ( science  is just the scientific method used or practiced by scientists  humans , science is just a human activity thus : personifying science is just a metaphor ) , science thus  is driven by the assumption that the universe is intelligible ,a scientific core assumption  without which there would be no point in trying to explain describe and hence understand the universe through science thus ,   and by the materialist meta-paradigm , the latter that "sees " reality as a whole as just being material or physical .

So, science has thus been assuming for so long now that reality as a whole is just material or physical , thanks to materialism thus .
When science will reject materialism, and hence the latter's false version of reality or false conception of nature in all sciences for that matter , then, science will be able to expand its realm , reach and jurisdiction as to include the missing part of reality , the immaterial one ( or just the part of it though that can be dealt with empirically: see how Sheldrake, for example , tries to study telepathy scientifically. )  , that has been labeled as being non-existent or as false by the mainstream "scientific world view " , or as being just material or physical .

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I believe in the immaterial as well, but the fact that so many properties of the mind can be linked so closely with (and controlled/manipulated by) physical processes suggests to me that the human mind has a physical origin. Take note that I believe in the spiritual realm, so I'm not a materialist.

How can you then believe in the existence of the immaterial or spiritual , while believing at the same time in the "truthfulness " of the materialist mainstream " scientific world view ", the latter that excludes , per definition, the existence of the immaterial or spiritual as such then ? = a real paradox you gotta try to sort out or solve for yourself , if you wanna be consistent with yourself at least .

P.S.: To say that the immaterial or non-physical mind can have a physical origin, as you put it is just yet another extension of the materialist core belief assumption regarding the nature of reality , just an extension of the materialist false conception of nature , just an extension thus of the materialist false version of reality , just an extension of the materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view " concerning the nature of reality that's allegedly just material or physical .

So, if the mind or consciousness can originate from the physical brain, then , everything is physical or material , including the mind or consciousness, and therefore there are no such things such as the immaterial realm or spirituality ......

Try to solve that paradox of yours , in the above mentioned sense thus : Good luck indeed : you cannot have it both ways :

You either do believe in the "truthfulness " of the -in-fact- false 'scientific world view"  , which means that reality as a whole is just material or physical and therefore there are no such things such as the immaterial side of reality or spirituality as such , or you do reject the false 'scientific world view " while believing in the existence of the immaterial realm or spirituality .
« Last Edit: 14/11/2013 19:55:32 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #56 on: 15/11/2013 06:48:40 »
Something strange happened. I tried to post a reply, but the forum informed me that I tried to post a "blacklisted term" and thus refused to post my message. Frustratingly, it would not inform me as to which term was blacklisted, so I could not correct my message. I would appreciate it if the mods would do something about that.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #57 on: 15/11/2013 17:00:33 »
Something strange happened. I tried to post a reply, but the forum informed me that I tried to post a "blacklisted term" and thus refused to post my message. Frustratingly, it would not inform me as to which term was blacklisted, so I could not correct my message. I would appreciate it if the mods would do something about that.
[/quote]

The exact very same thing happened to me twice : i searched  and searched for a non-specified potentially blacklisted term, in vain , but then i removed that symbol one uses in email addresses  ( at or add or whatever ) from my post in questio , and that was the presumed blacklisted term  haha weird .

P.S: That puzzling so-called split-brain syndrome that's a kindda disconnection between the 2 brain hemispheres is very interesting indeed : when the both hemispheres are disconnected like that ,  their corresponding aspects of consciousness get also disconnected  as a result  ,which does result in the seemingly experience of 2 minds thus , i guess .
« Last Edit: 15/11/2013 17:07:26 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #58 on: 16/11/2013 04:19:55 »
I think I figured out what the problem was. I used the "at" symbol in my post, which was probably picked up by the forum as an attempt to spell out an E-mail address. That's typical of spambot posts, so I'll just avoid the use of that in the future.

To David Cooper:

So does consciousness exist on a different plane than physical matter? What is it about this plane that allows consciousness to come into existence? How does a conscious mind which exists in this plane locate and link itself to a brain made out of physical matter?

My best guess is that consciousness is not a consequence of any single concept such as complexity, geometry or particular materials, but rather an interplay between different factors acting together to create just the right process. I would probably liken it to life itself: there is no one factor (reproduction, growth, ingestion, excretion, metabolism, etc.) that makes something alive, but instead all of these things working together make something alive. When looking at dead matter like charcoal, air or water, it really is hard to fathom how the same atoms which make up those materials are capable of being arranged in such a way as to make something as novel as life. Nonetheless, we know that not only are living things made of atoms just as dead matter is, but that life can turn non-life into new life by ingesting and assimilating it into new tissue.

To DonQuichotte:

There is no paradox if I only believe that the human mind originates in the physical (and by extension, animal minds). The existence of a physical mind is not incompatible with the existence of an immaterial mind that something like a spirit might possess. Both kinds of minds can exist simultaneously. The minds would simply have different natures and function in fundamentally different ways.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #59 on: 16/11/2013 18:26:01 »
I think I figured out what the problem was. I used the "at" symbol in my post, which was probably picked up by the forum as an attempt to spell out an E-mail address. That's typical of spambot posts, so I'll just avoid the use of that in the future.

I did tell you about just that here above  ,you do seem to have missed somehow , weird .


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To DonQuichotte:

There is no paradox if I only believe that the human mind originates in the physical (and by extension, animal minds). The existence of a physical mind is not incompatible with the existence of an immaterial mind that something like a spirit might possess. Both kinds of minds can exist simultaneously. The minds would simply have different natures and function in fundamentally different ways.

I do not get that : try to elaborate on that then .

The mind or consciousness in any given living organism cannot be physical , obviously, otherwise try to make some sort of a sentient machine then = cannot be done , obviously , not now , not tomorrow , and not in a trillion years to come either  .

I do just think of human consciousness as a process , as the soul or the self .

Just tell me then how the soul or the self can be physical = a paradox .

Or just how the "unconscious " matter can give rise to the immaterial consciousness then .

Mission...impossible , obviously .
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #60 on: 16/11/2013 19:12:05 »
So does consciousness exist on a different plane than physical matter? What is it about this plane that allows consciousness to come into existence? How does a conscious mind which exists in this plane locate and link itself to a brain made out of physical matter?

Why shouldn't ordinary stuff be conscious? Why shouldn't all the atoms in a rock be able to experience qualia all the time? It's far easier to imagine that happening than an arrangement of non-conscious atoms supporting something like sentient geometry.

The whole business of consciousness emerging is really a side issue and of little importance - it doesn't matter how much magic is involved in producing something that can experience qualia, because the real problem with consciousness is how it interfaces with information systems such as the one in the brain that produces claims about the existence of consciousness. How can that information system know that the data it's generating about consciousness is true when it can't test it? There is nothing in any information system we understand that could allow it to access qualia in such a way as to recognise that they exist.

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My best guess is that consciousness is not a consequence of any single concept such as complexity, geometry or particular materials, but rather an interplay between different factors acting together to create just the right process. I would probably liken it to life itself: there is no one factor (reproduction, growth, ingestion, excretion, metabolism, etc.) that makes something alive, but instead all of these things working together make something alive. When looking at dead matter like charcoal, air or water, it really is hard to fathom how the same atoms which make up those materials are capable of being arranged in such a way as to make something as novel as life. Nonetheless, we know that not only are living things made of atoms just as dead matter is, but that life can turn non-life into new life by ingesting and assimilating it into new tissue.

Life itself is just complex chemistry with nothing magical added at all. It's only when consciousness is added that we have a problem explaining things. That is where we currently depend either on magical interactions or else we have to deny that there is such a thing as consciousness altogether.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #61 on: 16/11/2013 20:26:13 »
Dave :

How can physics and chemistry alone or the physical material nature for that matter "generate " life , consciousness , the mental or the mind then ?

Absurd .
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #62 on: 16/11/2013 21:25:06 »
Dave :

How can physics and chemistry alone or the physical material nature for that matter "generate " life , consciousness , the mental or the mind then ?

Absurd .

Life: easy - it's just complex chemistry.

Consciousness: hard. We need to find the interface, and until we can identify where it is and see what's being exchanged through it, there's nothing useful can be said on the matter.

The mind: machine side is easy, only consciousness aspects are hard.
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #63 on: 16/11/2013 23:36:13 »
To DonQuichotte:

Yes, I did miss your statement about the "at" symbol, sorry.

I'm speaking in regards to the fact that you stated that it is a paradox to both believe in things that are immaterial and a consciousness that arises from the physical. If human consciousness were the only possible immaterial thing, then you would be right. However, it isn't. There are a multitude of immaterial things that could exist, including the likes of ghosts, psychic energy, Heaven, etc. My belief is that immaterial beings (angels and demons) have a consciousness that originates from the immaterial (as the "stuff" that composes them is immaterial) and that material beings (humans and animals) have a consciousness that originates from the material world.

You keep saying "obviously" and "obvious" a lot. The word "obvious" implies that something is self-evident or easily observable. When it comes to something like consciousness, there is very little we know for certain about it. We cannot observe anyone's consciousness except our own. We can't even know for sure if any being other than ourself is conscious. Everyone else could be a philosophical zombie. We only accept that other people are conscious because Occam's Razor suggests that, since other people behave like us, then they are probably conscious like us too.

You say that a machine cannot be conscious, but that is far from obvious (as you imply). As I've said before, we cannot directly test for or observe consciousness. If we were to build an artificial intelligence that behaved in a manner identical to a human being, then it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that it has a form of conscious awareness. All of the basic tests, logical, philosophical or otherwise, which we use to conclude that other human beings are conscious would therefore be passed by this advanced AI. If it passes the tests, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is conscious. If not, then why not? Because it doesn't have a human brain? Your next step would then be to prove that it is impossible to build a machine that can mimic human behavior. That's gonna be a hard thing to disprove.

There is a way to test some aspects of your claims. You say that consciousness and memories are both immaterial. When people are knocked out (either through physical trauma or chemical sedatives) the body and brain should be more or less inert and unresponsive. We know that this much is true. The next question then becomes "What happens to the immaterial mind at this time?" The mind itself, being immaterial, should be unaffected and should continue to remain consciously aware, capable of thinking and forming new memories. The only thing that has changed is that the brain itself is unresponsive. To a person who is knocked out, they should keep on thinking even though they can't move their body or use their senses. It would be akin to those sensory deprivation chambers that people use to relax.

Once their brain "restarts", they should be able to testify of their continued conscious awareness during the knock-out period. However, many people do not have any such memories of when they are unconscious. Why is this? It's not because they simply forgot that they were conscious, because you say that memories are immaterial and should be capable of forming just fine during the unconscious period. I myself have been put under (having my wisdom teeth pulled) and I did not dream or have any other conscious experience during that time. That goes hand-in-hand with the idea that the brain is where consciousness (or at the very least, memory) originates.

To David Cooper:

I guess you are supporting some kind of view of animism then? What does a rock experience? It doesn't have any senses. If it does have senses, how do they work?

As far as consciousness seeming magical or special, one must keep in mind that life seemed miraculous and unexplainable many moons ago. Once biology and technology advanced enough, we were able to figure out what makes it tick. It is certainly possible that with sufficiently advanced neuroscience and physics, we could one day uncover the root cause of consciousness as well.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2013 23:50:50 by Supercryptid »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #64 on: 17/11/2013 17:48:11 »
Dave :

How can physics and chemistry alone or the physical material nature for that matter "generate " life , consciousness , the mental or the mind then ?

Absurd .

Life: easy - it's just complex chemistry.

Life can't be just chemistry , no way, be serious  .
How can physics and chemistry alone give rise to life , no way .
How could life have emerged from the dead matter,in the so-called original soup , in the first place to begin with  .
Otherwise , it would be easy to make living sentient machines : absurd .
Think about just that .

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Consciousness: hard. We need to find the interface, and until we can identify where it is and see what's being exchanged through it, there's nothing useful can be said on the matter.

Consciousness is non-physical, dude : can't be reduced to the physical : physics and chemistry alone can , obviously , not give rise to consciousness , Mr.magician .
You're just chasing an absurd mirage you do take for real .

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The mind: machine side is easy, only consciousness aspects are hard.

Nothing is easy about the human intellect that's unique to man , even though it has some similarities with that of animals ...
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #65 on: 17/11/2013 18:31:24 »
We can't even know for sure if any being other than ourself is conscious. Everyone else could be a philosophical zombie.

If consciousness is real and I have it, I know that someone else has it too, because I wasn't the first to come up with the idea of consciousness. Someone else thought of it first, and if that person had been a zombie who merely thought he had it but didn't, then I would be a zombie too and not have consciousness at all - I would just be programmed to generate false information about consciousness like everyone else.

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You say that a machine cannot be conscious, but that is far from obvious (as you imply). As I've said before, we cannot directly test for or observe consciousness. If we were to build an artificial intelligence that behaved in a manner identical to a human being, then it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that it has a form of conscious awareness.

It would be unreasonable to assume that, because we don't know for certain that we have consciousness ourselves.

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All of the basic tests, logical, philosophical or otherwise, which we use to conclude that other human beings are conscious would therefore be passed by this advanced AI. If it passes the tests, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is conscious. If not, then why not? Because it doesn't have a human brain? Your next step would then be to prove that it is impossible to build a machine that can mimic human behavior. That's gonna be a hard thing to disprove.

Mimicking human behaviour is not enough, because everything relating to consciousness could be faked. You have to look at the internal mechanisms and make sure that they are the same.

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Once their brain "restarts", they should be able to testify of their continued conscious awareness during the knock-out period. However, many people do not have any such memories of when they are unconscious. Why is this?

It's not impossible that whatever it is in us that is conscious (meaning that it experiences qualia), continues to be conscious (experiencing qualia and nothing more than that) while the animal is unconscious, but because the brain is shut down to a degree and can't record memories, there is no record kept of those experiences - while knocked out for surgery you could be in extreme pain the whole time and not remember the fact afterwards, and this could happen if the anaesthetic targets the ability to write memories rather than blocking pain trigger inputs. It could also happen even if the inputs are blocked, though that's unlikely because there would be nothing systematically inducing whatever it is that experiences qualia to experience pain rather than just random sensations at low intensity.

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I guess you are supporting some kind of view of animism then? What does a rock experience? It doesn't have any senses. If it does have senses, how do they work?

It wouldn't need senses - it could just be that matter/energy experiences qualia all the time, the exact feelings being changed from moment to moment by the way that matter or energy is arranged. This is a much more reasonable idea than having something immaterial pinging into magical existence through emergence to suffer pain, but that too would be a kind of animism - just a more magical variety of it.

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As far as consciousness seeming magical or special, one must keep in mind that life seemed miraculous and unexplainable many moons ago.

If you don't separate out consciousness from life, it still seems miraculous and unexplainable. Plants though are not sentient, so they don't do anything special that can't just be classed as complex chemistry, though the DNA they contain might count as an information system depending on how it works (meaning whether it involves representation as opposed to direct generation of chemicals).

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Once biology and technology advanced enough, we were able to figure out what makes it tick. It is certainly possible that with sufficiently advanced neuroscience and physics, we could one day uncover the root cause of consciousness as well.

If there is such a thing as consciousness, that will indeed happen.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 18:40:38 by David Cooper »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #66 on: 17/11/2013 18:32:31 »
To DonQuichotte:

Yes, I did miss your statement about the "at" symbol, sorry.

No worries .
P.S.: You should try to quote me directly instead of replying this way .Thanks , appreciate .

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I'm speaking in regards to the fact that you stated that it is a paradox to both believe in things that are immaterial and a consciousness that arises from the physical. If human consciousness were the only possible immaterial thing, then you would be right. However, it isn't. There are a multitude of immaterial things that could exist, including the likes of ghosts, psychic energy, Heaven, etc. My belief is that immaterial beings (angels and demons) have a consciousness that originates from the immaterial (as the "stuff" that composes them is immaterial) and that material beings (humans and animals) have a consciousness that originates from the material world.

First of all , to say that human consciousness and that of other species on earth , can be physical is absurd : how can the "unconscious " matter give rise to the immaterial consciousness ? ,the latter that's , obviously , irreducible to the physical: that's our own subjective and collective experiences of consciousness as such = a non-physical process: how can physics and chemsitry give rise to the sense of the self ....Don't be an irrational guy , come on, be serious : you're being absurd : you do sound like a soul mate of that absurd old ancient Greek fellow philosopher Zeno ,really  .
Physics and chemistry cannot give rise to consciousness that's totally different from the former : that materialist magical "emergence " trick regarding the nature or origins of consciousness is just that : materialist magic in science , no empirical fact : makes no sense either .
Not to mention that physics and chemistry alone cannot account for the emergence of life , consciousness , human intellect , cannot account for the non-physical nature of feelings emotions , human love , human conscience ....

P.S.: What you do not get yet is that science has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical : that's the mainstream materialist "scientific world view " that's just the materialist naturalist reductionist false conception of nature , no empirical fact .
So, when you do reduce reality  as a whole  , including man and life in general ,to just material physical biological processes ,that means you have been believing in the materialist version of relaity ,and hence  in its false "scientific world view " : if reality thus as a whole is just material or physical , as you seem to assume it to be , as materialists do , that does not only make you a materialist ,ironically paradoxically enough (a weird paradoxical materialist who pretends o believe in the immaterial also = contradictio  in termo ) , but that materialist version of reality  you seem to be believing in , crazily enough ,  does also , and per definition thus, exclude any existence of the immaterial out there , any existence of God ...despite your belief in the latter = a paradox thus , you 're not even aware of and which you should try to solve for yourself , if you wanna be consistent with yourself at least .

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You keep saying "obviously" and "obvious" a lot. The word "obvious" implies that something is self-evident or easily observable. When it comes to something like consciousness, there is very little we know for certain about it. We cannot observe anyone's consciousness except our own. We can't even know for sure if any being other than ourself is conscious. Everyone else could be a philosophical zombie. We only accept that other people are conscious because Occam's Razor suggests that, since other people behave like us, then they are probably conscious like us too.

Obvious to me is self-evident indeed : consciousness is obviously non-physical , you do not need to be a philsosopher to know just that : it's absurd to assume that reality as a whole is just physical or material ,including consciousness , human intellect ....life ... as you have been assuming , and as materialism has been doing : there is nothing self-evident about that false materialist conception of nature that has been taken for granted as the "scientific world view ", simply because reality as a whole, including man, life , and other species , cannot be just material or physical , the same goes for the whole universe .
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You say that a machine cannot be conscious, but that is far from obvious (as you imply). As I've said before, we cannot directly test for or observe consciousness. If we were to build an artificial intelligence that behaved in a manner identical to a human being, then it would not be at all unreasonable to assume that it has a form of conscious awareness. All of the basic tests, logical, philosophical or otherwise, which we use to conclude that other human beings are conscious would therefore be passed by this advanced AI. If it passes the tests, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is conscious. If not, then why not? Because it doesn't have a human brain? Your next step would then be to prove that it is impossible to build a machine that can mimic human behavior. That's gonna be a hard thing to disprove.

What you're saying here is total non-sense : machines can only simulate consciousness , they can never be conscious , simply because physics and chemistry cannot give rise to consciousness .
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There is a way to test some aspects of your claims. You say that consciousness and memories are both immaterial. When people are knocked out (either through physical trauma or chemical sedatives) the body and brain should be more or less inert and unresponsive. We know that this much is true. The next question then becomes "What happens to the immaterial mind at this time?" The mind itself, being immaterial, should be unaffected and should continue to remain consciously aware, capable of thinking and forming new memories. The only thing that has changed is that the brain itself is unresponsive. To a person who is knocked out, they should keep on thinking even though they can't move their body or use their senses. It would be akin to those sensory deprivation chambers that people use to relax.

Non-sense : mind and body are 1 , even though they are totally different from each other , so , mind and body do affect each other in ways we still do not know much about : the mind is even more fundamental and powerful than the body  can ever be   .

So, when the brain or body are sedated , drugged , damaged , when they suffer from some disorder or disease ,deficiency ...genetic disorder ... that has implications for  the mind that's inseparable from the body or brain, in this life at least :  that does not mean that consciousnes is caused by the physical brain , or that the mind is in the brain .

I think personally that the human mind consciousness or soul or self will be for ever out of reach of science in fact, simply because they are both subjective and immaterial  .
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Once their brain "restarts", they should be able to testify of their continued conscious awareness during the knock-out period. However, many people do not have any such memories of when they are unconscious. Why is this? It's not because they simply forgot that they were conscious, because you say that memories are immaterial and should be capable of forming just fine during the unconscious period. I myself have been put under (having my wisdom teeth pulled) and I did not dream or have any other conscious experience during that time. That goes hand-in-hand with the idea that the brain is where consciousness (or at the very least, memory) originates.

Does that mean that consciousness is caused by the brain ,or that the mind is in the brain ? What makes you extrapolate the one from the other ?
Can't there be other explanations ?
What you do not realise is that the absurd belief assumptions that the mind is in the brain , memory is stored in the brain , ....are just extensions of the materialist version of reality in the sense that the latter is just material or physical, including the mind ....= that's just a convenient and handy materialist ideological belief assumption  that makes the scientific data fit into its false conception of nature , not the other way around , no empirical fact .

Does the tv set or radio create respectively their own images and radio broadcasts they do receive ?
Don't be silly : saying that the mind is the brain is like saying that Obama lives inside of the tv set ....absurd .

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #67 on: 17/11/2013 18:41:03 »
Supercryptid :

You're either a materialist or a non -materialist : you cannot be both at the same time = a paradox : you cannot have it both ways , by believing both in the existence of the immaterial , and in the materialist version of reality you have been taking for granted as the "scientific world view " without question so far , the  materialist false conception of nature  , and hence the mainstream materialist false "scientific world view " that have been assuming  or rather believing for so long now ,  that everything is just material or physical  .
If everything is just material or physical, then there is no such a thing such as the immaterial ...obviously .
So, make up your mind then , and stop being so ridiculously irrationally paradoxical or contradictory .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #68 on: 17/11/2013 18:48:59 »
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simply because physics and chemistry cannot give rise to consciousness .

This is dangerously close to a definition of the c word. Now we know where it can't come from, perhaps someone will tell us what it does - or doesn't do?
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #69 on: 17/11/2013 19:32:53 »


You're either a materialist or a non -materialist : you cannot be both at the same time = a paradox : you cannot have it both ways , by believing both in the existence of the immaterial , and in the materialist version of reality you have been taking for granted as the "scientific world view " without question so far , the  materialist false conception of nature  , and hence the mainstream materialist false "scientific world view " that have been assuming  or rather believing for so long now ,  that everything is just material or physical  .
If everything is just material or physical, then there is no such a thing such as the immaterial ...obviously .
So, make up your mind then , and stop being so ridiculously irrationally paradoxical or contradictory .

How is he being contradictory or paradoxical? Like you, he believes in the immaterial (or doesn't rule the possibility out) He just doesn't think consciousness is immaterial.

You said: "All i was saying is that reality as a whole is not just material physical , as modern science assumes it to be, thanks to materialism : not everything can be explained just in terms of physics and  chemistry , or just by the laws of physics ,or just by cause and effect"

Why is he forced to chose "one or the other" if you don't?
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 19:35:26 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #70 on: 17/11/2013 19:50:46 »

You're either a materialist or a non -materialist : you cannot be both at the same time = a paradox : you cannot have it both ways , by believing both in the existence of the immaterial , and in the materialist version of reality you have been taking for granted as the "scientific world view " without question so far , the  materialist false conception of nature  , and hence the mainstream materialist false "scientific world view " that have been assuming  or rather believing for so long now ,  that everything is just material or physical  .
If everything is just material or physical, then there is no such a thing such as the immaterial ...obviously .
So, make up your mind then , and stop being so ridiculously irrationally paradoxical or contradictory .

How is he being contradictory or paradoxical? Like you, he believes in the immaterial (or doesn't rule the possibility out) He just doesn't think consciousness is immaterial.

You said: "All i was saying is that reality as a whole is not just material physical , as modern science assumes it to be, thanks to materialism : not everything can be explained just in terms of physics and  chemistry , or just by the laws of physics ,or just by cause and effect"

Why is he forced to chose "one or the other" if you don't?
[/quote]

What has the false materialist naturalist reductionist conception of nature  that goes way beyond science and beyond the scientific method thus  , and hence the false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " to do with causation , ....? They both are 1 ,and both have just been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical , including consciousness or the mind mental  thus  ,and hence , there is no such a thing or process such as the immaterial ....

So, when science  ,  under the exclusive supremacy monopoly and dominance of materialism , has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical , so, science  has been trying to explain everything , reality as a whole thus , just in terms of physics and chemistry , just in terms of the laws of physics or mechanistic causation , while missing the other part of reality in the process .

So, when all sciences for that matter will be able to reject materialism, and hence the false "scientific world view ", by including the parts of the immaterial side of reality with wich they can deal empirically , they might therefore discover that the mechanistic causation or the laws of physics were / are just human projections , in the sense that the notion of laws is just a human projection , which might mean , in its turn , that reality as a whole might be functioning and existing , evolving ...within some  other totally different notions than the physical mechanistic laws , or the mechanistic causation that are intrinsically determinist , without any existence of any notion of free ...will , the latter that's a matter of consciousness mainly , even though sub-consciousness does play a role in that .
Free will that cannot exist within a mechanistic determinist materialist version of reality , which considers , logically , consciousness as to be just a side -effect of biological evolution = or rather just a side effect of the materialist version of evolution .(Reality as a whole is not just material or physical in fact , consciousness cannot be a biological process, and hence evolution itself cannot be just biological, the same goes for life ....its origins emergence and evolution , the same goes for human language ,its evolution emergence and origins ....the same goes for human intellect , feelings , emotions ....and the rest  .) .

To believe that everything is just material or physical, including man and man's consciousness, while assuming that there might be some immaterial beings out there, at the same time,  is simply paradoxical : the one belief assumption excludes the other .

In short :
If that guy does really believe in the immaterial , he should also believe in the immaterial side of man and life ,including in the immaterial nature and origins of consciousness thus , and  in the immaterial side of reality as a whole , while rejecting that false 'scientific world view " regarding the nature of reality as a whole , the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " that has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical,including the mind or consciousness thus  .
He certainly can't have it both ways .

In short :

Materialism has just been clever enough to integrate the prior -to -materialism  mechanical conception of nature , in order to pretend to be 'scientific " .


P.S.: It might turn out to be that reality is spiritual at its ultimate core : the material or physical side of reality might turn out to be just an  elaborate  ...illusion .Who knows ? I dunno.

Finale note :

When science has been forced by materialism to see all reality as just a matter of just material physical biological processes , while missing the immaterial side of reality as a result , science has been therefore just trying to explain "everything" just within the materialist false version of reality as a whole  which has been taken for granted by science as the whole reality = the laws of physics or physics and chemistry are a distortion of reality as a whole = reality as a whole might turn out to be totally different from any human projections such as physical laws , causation.... ...
Other totally unknown phenomena or whatever we might not be able to call causation in the physical sense thus , might turn out to be the ones "running the whole show " of the whole universe ,while they or whatever delegate a part of the whole show to us humans , via our conscious human free will.

I can only guess at this point of course on the subject , as anybodyelse only can do .

 
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 20:42:25 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #71 on: 17/11/2013 21:19:27 »

In short :
If that guy does really believe in the immaterial , he should also believe in the immaterial side of man and life ,including in the immaterial nature and origins of consciousness thus , and  in the immaterial side of reality as a whole , while rejecting that false 'scientific world view " regarding the nature of reality as a whole , the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " that has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical,including the mind or consciousness thus  .
He certainly can't have it both ways .




Well, I'll let Supercryptid speak for himself about what he believes or doesn't believe. But again, if its fine for you to believe that some things can be explained by just chemistry and physics, but "not everything", then it should be okay for anyone else to hold that view, even if they disagree about what goes in which category.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 21:22:25 by cheryl j »
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #72 on: 18/11/2013 04:07:51 »
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if reality thus as a whole is just material or physical , as you seem to assume it to be

I don't. I believe in the existence of angels and demons. Therefore, I am not a materialist. Believing in angels and demons does not mean that I have to believe that the human mind is immaterial. These two beliefs are unrelated. It is not a paradox. I am having a really hard time following your line of reasoning. If I believe in the existence of material minds, why can't I also believe that there are other, fundamentally different, immaterial minds? That's like saying that I'm allowed to believe that ice cream can be made to have the flavor of chocolate, but that it cannot be made to have the flavor of vanilla.

Your biggest argument about this whole thing is that you cannot fathom how consciousness can arise from physical matter and as a result have come to the hasty conclusion that it can't. This is a perfect example of the "argument from ignorance" fallacy. Just because you can't understand it means that it can't be true? I, personally, don't understand calculus. Therefore, calculus must be wrong!

I will give you some credit however, as you have outlasted me in this debate because I am no longer willing to continue. You keep reiterating the same points again and again with no evidence further than your own personal reasoning to back up your claims. To be honest, this kind of debate would be more at home on a philosophy forum than a science one. Unlike scientific arguments, philosophical arguments have a tendency to rely on the unprovable and as such are difficult to prove wrong in a debate.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #73 on: 18/11/2013 17:52:47 »

In short :
If that guy does really believe in the immaterial , he should also believe in the immaterial side of man and life ,including in the immaterial nature and origins of consciousness thus , and  in the immaterial side of reality as a whole , while rejecting that false 'scientific world view " regarding the nature of reality as a whole , the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " that has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical,including the mind or consciousness thus  .
He certainly can't have it both ways .




Well, I'll let Supercryptid speak for himself about what he believes or doesn't believe. But again, if its fine for you to believe that some things can be explained by just chemistry and physics, but "not everything", then it should be okay for anyone else to hold that view, even if they disagree about what goes in which category.
[/quote
]


You just did misunderstand my words :
I have been saying that physics and chemistry alone cannot explain "everything"  as the elusive so-called  physical  "theory  of everything = nothing " tries to do   , simply because reality as a whole is not just physical or material ,which means that physics and chemistry cannot explain anything in fact for that matter , they just try to describe the physical or material side of reality , physics and chemistry alone do not even succeed at explaining  even the physical or material side of reality , they just try to describe it  : see how modern physics have been superseding materialism .


 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #74 on: 18/11/2013 18:19:39 »
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if reality thus as a whole is just material or physical , as you seem to assume it to be

I don't. I believe in the existence of angels and demons. Therefore, I am not a materialist. Believing in angels and demons does not mean that I have to believe that the human mind is immaterial. These two beliefs are unrelated. It is not a paradox. I am having a really hard time following your line of reasoning. If I believe in the existence of material minds, why can't I also believe that there are other, fundamentally different, immaterial minds? That's like saying that I'm allowed to believe that ice cream can be made to have the flavor of chocolate, but that it cannot be made to have the flavor of vanilla.

Since you do seem to believe in the materialist false 'scientific world view " by saying that the universe , including life on earth and including the mind thus  , that the universe  is just material or physical , that makes you a materialist .
When you say that you do believe in angels ....that makes you a non-materialist .
Try to solve that paradox for yourself then: you can't have it both ways  .
If you believe in the immaterial, then you have to reject the false materialist "scientific world view " which has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical .
If you believe in the immaterial, then you have to believe in the immaterial side of reality as a whole also ,including in the immaterial side of life , including in the immaterial side of evolution istelf , including in the immaterial side of everythingelse ,  including in the immaterial nature and origins of consciousness ...simply because everything in this universe has material physical and non-material non-physical sides , except those purely immaterial or spiritual beings out there .

In short :
Reality as a whole is not just material or physical , including life and the mind = including sentient life thus  ,as the false materialist conception of nature wanna make you believe it is , and hence as the materialist mainstream false 'scientific world view " does .

Reality as a whole is therefore not just material or physical , and hence life is not just material or physical , the mind or consciousness are non-physical , and even evolution itself cannot be just  biological .

When science will be able to reject materialism ,and hence its false materialist "scientific world view ", by acknowledging the fact that reality as a whole ,including life , evolution and the rest , is not just material or physical , then all our scientific knowledge ,all sciences , will be changed radically : use your imagination then .


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Your biggest argument about this whole thing is that you cannot fathom how consciousness can arise from physical matter and as a result have come to the hasty conclusion that it can't. This is a perfect example of the "argument from ignorance" fallacy. Just because you can't understand it means that it can't be true? I, personally, don't understand calculus. Therefore, calculus must be wrong
!

No, physics and chemistry cannot give rise to consciousness, simply because the latter is totally different from the former ,as we all do experience consciousness to be .
I am not gonna argue you with you any further on the subject of consciousness, the latter that 's non -physical , and therefore is consciousness irreducible to the physical .
Consciousness that's a subjective individual process and a collective one also : how can physics and chemistry give rise to subjective and collective senses of the self like that ?

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I will give you some credit however, as you have outlasted me in this debate because I am no longer willing to continue. You keep reiterating the same points again and again with no evidence further than your own personal reasoning to back up your claims. To be honest, this kind of debate would be more at home on a philosophy forum than a science one. Unlike scientific arguments, philosophical arguments have a tendency to rely on the unprovable and as such are difficult to prove wrong in a debate.

You're right , just in the sense that we have been talking here just conceptions of nature , not science :
The false materialist conception of nature , and hence the  false  materialist mainstream "scientific world view " are just that = false conceptions of nature , false world views , false philosophy in science that has been taken for granted as the "scientific world view ", and hence the "mind is in the brain, memory is stored in the brain ..."  are just that : extensions of the false materialist conception of nature , and hence just extensions of the false "scientific world view " .
In short :

There is a lot of materialist crap out there you have been taking for granted as science , including your belief in the materialist belief assumption that "the mind is in the brain ..." .

Try to sort all that out for yourself .

Good luck indeed.
 

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Re: What is ...Science ?
« Reply #74 on: 18/11/2013 18:19:39 »

 

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