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Let me instead try to draw you a pic of some sort :As a painter yourself , when you do assume, via some false belief of yours on the subject you might have been taking for granted as the mainstream artistic "true" holistic version of nature , when you do assume thus that a certain part of a given painting is all what there is to that specific painting as a whole , while assuming that the other part of that same painting does not exist as such or at least that you cannot see it somehow , does that mean that the whole pic of that painting is just that specific part of the pic only, you have been assuming that 's what all there is to that pic as a whole ?That's exactly what all sciences have been doing in relation to the universe as a whole , via that materialist false mainstream 'scientific world view ", ironically unbelievably incredibly paradoxically absurdly ...crazy enough .
Quote from: David Cooper on 16/11/2013 19:26:09QuoteFor example : how can DNA , physics and chemistry , let alone the materialist version of evolution explain how certain migrating birds do know exactly when how and where they should be migrating ?A lot of birds follow simple programs to migrate. Experiments have shown that if you put them in the right kind of circular container, they may flutter against the side for hours, then move to another part and flutter there for hours more. Had they actually flown rather than being trapped in a container, the directions they fluttered in and the durations of those flutters would have taken them directly along their programmed migration route. These programs are subject to random mutations which result in different birds ending up in different places, with some going thousands of miles off course, the result often being death in an ocean or other unsuitable habitat, but sometimes they survive and establish the genetics for new migration routes which make the species more robust.You did not answer my core questions : you were just migrating somehereelse instead : How can physics and chemistry alone account for such sophisticated innate or intrinsic migration 'programs " of those birds ? Did phsyics and chemistry "create " some sort of sophisticated gps or radar for those specific migrating birds to follow somehow and how exactly ? and how does that process looks like ? Can you describe it to me ? in some specific clear form or another ? How do phsyics and chemistry alone show those migrating birds the way they should take back and forth , let alone precisely 'dictate " to them when they should migrate , how and where exactly they should migrate , without almost ever being lost ?
QuoteFor example : how can DNA , physics and chemistry , let alone the materialist version of evolution explain how certain migrating birds do know exactly when how and where they should be migrating ?A lot of birds follow simple programs to migrate. Experiments have shown that if you put them in the right kind of circular container, they may flutter against the side for hours, then move to another part and flutter there for hours more. Had they actually flown rather than being trapped in a container, the directions they fluttered in and the durations of those flutters would have taken them directly along their programmed migration route. These programs are subject to random mutations which result in different birds ending up in different places, with some going thousands of miles off course, the result often being death in an ocean or other unsuitable habitat, but sometimes they survive and establish the genetics for new migration routes which make the species more robust.
For example : how can DNA , physics and chemistry , let alone the materialist version of evolution explain how certain migrating birds do know exactly when how and where they should be migrating ?
How can physics and chemistry alone account for such sophisticated innate or intrinsic migration 'programs " of those birds ? Did phsyics and chemistry "create " some sort of sophisticated gps or radar for those specific migrating birds to follow somehow and how exactly ? and how does that process looks like ? Can you describe it to me ? in some specific clear form or another ?
The avian magnetic compass has been well characterized in behavioral tests: it is an “inclination compass” based on the inclination of the field lines rather than on the polarity, and its operation requires short-wavelength light.
Should i try to go back to my dusty attic or closets to try to find my old tv set or radio analogies , in order to try to find out about where exactly should i look inside of my old and still functioning tv to see whether Obama or CNN are still living in there inside of that old tv of mine or not ?Should i try to try to reverse-engineer my old and still functioning radio to see whether the programs it used to broadcast or would broadcast , to see whether they are still living inside of my radio or not ?Not to mention that i , maybe , should destroy both my tv set and radio just to see if those respectively received images ,and programs were/are 'created " by respectively my tv set and radio ? Come on, be serious .
Well, if you are going to drag the dusty tv set analogy out again, I have a question about it. What's a hallucination?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/11/2013 20:03:29Should i try to go back to my dusty attic or closets to try to find my old tv set or radio analogies , in order to try to find out about where exactly should i look inside of my old and still functioning tv to see whether Obama or CNN are still living in there inside of that old tv of mine or not ?Should i try to try to reverse-engineer my old and still functioning radio to see whether the programs it used to broadcast or would broadcast , to see whether they are still living inside of my radio or not ?Not to mention that i , maybe , should destroy both my tv set and radio just to see if those respectively received images ,and programs were/are 'created " by respectively my tv set and radio ? Come on, be serious .Well, if you are going to drag the dusty tv set analogy out again, I have a question about it. What's a hallucination? You can blame your broken tv set for not showing Obama or CNN when it's supposed to, but a broken tv set cannot create on its own programs or music, (as you've pointed out multiple times) You can't blame hallucinations on the brain as a faulty receiver of sensory information, because there is no sensory information being received that is creating the hallucination. Where is it coming from? I can explain hallucinations if the qualia of consciousness is generated by the brain itself - for example, the hallucinations that result from temporal lobe seizures. But how would the immaterial consciousness create a hallucination and at the same time mistake it for reality? Again, you can't blame it on the brain as a faulty receiver, because according to you, conscious experience isn't generated or experienced in the brain.
Get that ?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 17/11/2013 19:02:10Get that ?What's there to get, Don?? All you said was you once took LSD, "beats me," and restated your opinion that materialism is false.What do you mean exactly by "the same goes for hallucinations"?
We don't speak the same English or rather the same language haha ,metaphorically speaking then, you and i , i see :You just want me to try to explain hallucinations also ,within just the false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " in fact , i guess , while i am anti-reductionism , and hence i do reject that false "scientific world view " that's no science , just a false materialist conception of nature .You just want me to talk science , in the materialist "scientific world view " sense .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 17/11/2013 21:03:49We don't speak the same English or rather the same language haha ,metaphorically speaking then, you and i , i see :You just want me to try to explain hallucinations also ,within just the false materialist mainstream "scientific world view " in fact , i guess , while i am anti-reductionism , and hence i do reject that false "scientific world view " that's no science , just a false materialist conception of nature .You just want me to talk science , in the materialist "scientific world view " sense .No, that's exactly the opposite of what I was trying to do. I am asking you to explain hallucinations with your view of the immaterial consciousness. I was not refuting or denying anything you said, just asking how it works.
I think a good idea is to try to say how you would design an electronic system to have free will. Such words and phrases as "intelligence" and "make a choice" would be disallowed. You'd have to describe the blocks that do this and explain how they do it in terms that an electronics engineer and/or a programmer could understand. Apart form a whole lot of data about what's going on in the environment of the machine, ie the data being fed to it, he'd need a system of heirarchy for the various levels of importance which various facts can have, so that some form of automatic gating takes place to place the new facts (data) higher or lower on the list. Everything would have to be conditional on a number of other things so that when they change so could the importance levels. This is only to give a rough idea of what I'm proposing. To cater for all this the machine would need a lot of space and be very fast working. How would you describe such a machine?
Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ? Hi, folks :Do tell me about it,please .See the following on the subject ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-o5-EYzTY [nofollow]Thanks , appreciate indeed.Cheers
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 09/11/2013 19:34:26Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ? Hi, folks :Do tell me about it,please .See the following on the subject ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-o5-EYzTYThanks , appreciate indeed.CheersAs you can see, there are many points of view and no one can prove their one is correct. As I said, what I would do in order to answer the question is consider how you would design a machine which has free will. For example it could have a heirarchy of various agendas and its "decisions" about every issue that comes along could be determined according to how it fits in with this heirarchy. Whether you would call its decisions free or not depends on how you define free. I know we are regarded as being other than machines but to say that "no machine can ever have free will" is pedantic and unproveable.
Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ? Hi, folks :Do tell me about it,please .See the following on the subject ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-o5-EYzTYThanks , appreciate indeed.Cheers
Quote from: David Cooper on 15/11/2013 20:33:16Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/11/2013 17:49:20The brain does thus not do much in fact , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .Which is why brain damage has no impact on the capability of the mind, and it's also why a fly can think every bit as well as a human, because its mind is not constrained by its tiny brain.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/11/2013 17:49:20The brain does thus not do much in fact , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .Which is why brain damage has no impact on the capability of the mind, and it's also why a fly can think every bit as well as a human, because its mind is not constrained by its tiny brain.
The brain does thus not do much in fact , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .
Okay, okay, let's say that everyone around the world, scientists included, accept the existence of the immaterial. What happens next, DonQuichotte?[/quote
Can you be more specific? What precisely will have to be modified about science? How will it affect our day-to-day lives? Will it help us be a better society? How will it change our behavior? If so, how?